The News Gets Better and Better

[Cavebear]

How do churches consolidate?

Each one has a gang of fools who think their god is the only god.  They are not big on compromise.

Superstitions are not very tolerant of other superstitions I'm afraid.

Jews believe that the prophet Elijah flew to heaven on a flaming chariot.  Christians believe that Jesus flew to heaven without the benefit of Bernoulli's Principle or Newton's third law (and that the Virgin Mary was beamed up into heaven by... Scotty?), and Muslims believe that Muhammed flew to heaven on a winged horse.  

Which superstition is the "truth"?  Theologians will argue for years about what sensible people know to be a myth.

For clarity, when I said "just like me", I meant demographics, not thoughts. I see I should have been clearer about that...

[Minimalist]

You're new, Cranky, and I'll probably bore everyone else with this who has already heard it but I agree with you about the superstitious fools.  

For that reason I tend to have a bit more respect for the fundies - assholes though they be - than for the cherry-pickers.  Xhristard fundies insist the world is 6k years old, that dinosaurs and men lived together, that there was a real Adam and Eve, and an actual world covering flood, etc., etc., etc.  These people are just fucking stupid but at least they are consistent.  They are ALWAYS stupid.


But let us take one of the foremost scholars of our age, Bart Ehrman.  Ehrman rejects all manner of "miracles."  From the virgin birth to the resurrection he thinks these are nothing but stories invented after the death of the eponymous ( and probably non-existent) founder of the cult by his followers.  Ehrman does not think Emperor Augustus ordered a world-wide census.  He does not think that "Nazareth" was a city with a functioning synagogue.  Ehrman does not think that jesus' family went to Egypt at exactly the same time they went to Nazareth on the not illogical assumption that the asshole cannot have been in two places at the same time.  Well, you get the picture.

All of this nonsense that Ehrman rejects out of hand appears in the gospels and nowhere else... and let's be clear here.  There is ONE gospel.  Mark.  Luke and Matthew are later fanfics or expansions for different audiences and then there is "John" which is a total re-write.  But there is only ONE basic story.  Ehrman has made a career out of trashing these gospel stories and generally done a fine job of it.  

Yet even Ehrman looks at a book/series of books which he has just trashed and then says that the one thing we can be certain of is that jesus was executed by Pilate because he called himself "king of the jews."  Why?  In a book full of total horseshit what is it about that particular story that Ehrman thinks is real?  There is no more supporting evidence for it than any of the other tales in the gospel.  In fact, Ehrman goes out of his way to dismiss the Barabbas tale - which is part and parcel of the jesus trial story - but still Ehrman insists that the crucifixion happened.

Personally, I find this position inexplicable.  Ehrman is cherry-picking.

[Cavebear]

You're new, Cranky, and I'll probably bore everyone else with this who has already heard it but I agree with you about the superstitious fools.  

For that reason I tend to have a bit more respect for the fundies - assholes though they be - than for the cherry-pickers.  Xhristard fundies insist the world is 6k years old, that dinosaurs and men lived together, that there was a real Adam and Eve, and an actual world covering flood, etc., etc., etc.  These people are just fucking stupid but at least they are consistent.  They are ALWAYS stupid.


But let us take one of the foremost scholars of our age, Bart Ehrman.  Ehrman rejects all manner of "miracles."  From the virgin birth to the resurrection he thinks these are nothing but stories invented after the death of the eponymous ( and probably non-existent) founder of the cult by his followers.  Ehrman does not think Emperor Augustus ordered a world-wide census.  He does not think that "Nazareth" was a city with a functioning synagogue.  Ehrman does not think that jesus' family went to Egypt at exactly the same time they went to Nazareth on the not illogical assumption that the asshole cannot have been in two places at the same time.  Well, you get the picture.

All of this nonsense that Ehrman rejects out of hand appears in the gospels and nowhere else... and let's be clear here.  There is ONE gospel.  Mark.  Luke and Matthew are later fanfics or expansions for different audiences and then there is "John" which is a total re-write.  But there is only ONE basic story.  Ehrman has made a career out of trashing these gospel stories and generally done a fine job of it.  

Yet even Ehrman looks at a book/series of books which he has just trashed and then says that the one thing we can be certain of is that jesus was executed by Pilate because he called himself "king of the jews."  Why?  In a book full of total horseshit what is it about that particular story that Ehrman thinks is real?  There is no more supporting evidence for it than any of the other tales in the gospel.  In fact, Ehrman goes out of his way to dismiss the Barabbas tale - which is part and parcel of the jesus trial story - but still Ehrman insists that the crucifixion happened.

Personally, I find this position inexplicable.  Ehrman is cherry-picking.

I am not familiar with Ehrman. But his conclusion (from your post) about the "actual" existence of Jesus the deity and the cruci-"fiction" demonstrates that a person can be evaluative in many details and still fall flat on his face about others.

[Minimalist]

Here's his analysis of the Barabbas story.  Just to give you an idea of what he is about.

https://ehrmanblog.org/pilate-released-barabbas-really/

Pilate Released Barabbas. Really??

[Cavebear]

Here's his analysis of the Barabbas story.  Just to give you an idea of what he is about.

https://ehrmanblog.org/pilate-released-barabbas-really/

Pilate Released Barabbas. Really??

Badass who? Seriously, I also don't believe in the other 2 guys...

[Dom]

I was correct when I read the bible at age 10 - bad fairy tales.

[Cavebear]

I was correct when I read the bible at age 10 - bad fairy tales.

Have you ever read the actual Grimms' Fairy Tales? They are astonishingly brutal. Almost worse than the Old Testament in some ways as being rather more personal in punishments.

[Dom]

I was correct when I read the bible at age 10 - bad fairy tales.

Have you ever read the actual Grimms' Fairy Tales?  They are astonishingly brutal.  Almost worse than the Old Testament in some ways as being rather more personal in punishments.

Yes, and that dates you, they have long been cleaned up. But, yes, I actually filed Grimms" books with the bible back then. With the books I was good and done with. (I read tons in those days)

[Cavebear]

Have you ever read the actual Grimms' Fairy Tales?  They are astonishingly brutal.  Almost worse than the Old Testament in some ways as being rather more personal in punishments.

Yes, and that dates you, they have long been cleaned up. But, yes, I actually filed Grimms" books with the bible back then. With the books I was good and done with. (I read tons in those days)

Well why not? As the joke goes "who else would date me?".

But seriously, putting a "witch" into a barrel and driving in 3" nails, then rolling the barrel so she is punctured 100s of times down a hill into a river where she is drowned slowly. How insanely cruel can people get even in their imagination?

[Dom]

Yes, and that dates you, they have long been cleaned up. But, yes, I actually filed Grimms" books with the bible back then. With the books I was good and done with. (I read tons in those days)

Well why not?  As the joke goes "who else would date me?".

But seriously, putting a "witch" into a barrel and driving in 3" nails, then rolling the barrel so she is punctured 100s of times down a hill into a river where she is drowned slowly.  How insanely cruel can people get even in their imagination?

Killing everybody's first born?

[Cavebear]

Well why not?  As the joke goes "who else would date me?".

But seriously, putting a "witch" into a barrel and driving in 3" nails, then rolling the barrel so she is punctured 100s of times down a hill into a river where she is drowned slowly.  How insanely cruel can people get even in their imagination?

Killing everybody's first born?

Well of course for a group. But the Grimm stories (that they merely collected) were mostly about individuals. I was speaking to the individual victims of ancient times in stories.

I am fully able to get into a discussion of actual holocaustic mass mayhem from Huns to Nazis and more modern massacres if you want. But is that for here?

[Dom]

Killing everybody's first born?

Well of course for a group.  But the Grimm stories  (that they merely collected) were mostly about individuals.  I was speaking to the individual victims of ancient times in stories.  

I am fully able to get into a discussion of actual holocaustic mass mayhem from Huns to Nazis and more modern massacres if you want.  But is that for here?

Just drawing parallels to the first testament. Remember, that's what I lumped into the same category with Grimms back then. We're kind of on the topic of religion here.

[Minimalist]

Yep...god is portrayed as a real dick.

3 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei.
2 And the Lord said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.
3 So the Lord our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.

Deuteronomy 3, 1

This is his own book so I guess he is proud of his crimes.  Reminds me of Fuckface.

[Fireball]

Yep...god is portrayed as a real dick.

3 Then we turned, and went up the way to Bashan: and Og the king of Bashan came out against us, he and all his people, to battle at Edrei.
2 And the Lord said unto me, Fear him not: for I will deliver him, and all his people, and his land, into thy hand; and thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites, which dwelt at Heshbon.
3 So the Lord our God delivered into our hands Og also, the king of Bashan, and all his people: and we smote him until none was left to him remaining.

Deuteronomy 3, 1

This is his own book so I guess he is proud of his crimes.  Reminds me of Fuckface.

Yabut, fuckface called an airstrike and chickened out at the last minute. I'd like to have heard the invective in that cockpit!

[Cavebear]

Yep...god is portrayed as a real dick.



This is his own book so I guess he is proud of his crimes.  Reminds me of Fuckface.

Yabut, fuckface called an airstrike and chickened out at the last minute. I'd like to have heard the invective in that cockpit!

I forget that event. What was it? He did so much weird stuff.

[Minimalist]

Iran shot down a US drone and Fuckface was all set to start WWIII over it.  Someone talked him out of it.

[isbelldl]

How do churches consolidate?

Each one has a gang of fools who think their god is the only god.  They are not big on compromise.

Councils Of Consolidation...  Religions have gone to war over minor details, but they have also negotiated some differences.

I think major Protestant Theisms could easily whitewash some details in order to join together in sufficient numbers to survive (though I actually hope they do not).  I'm not the most expertise person about christian theisms, but are Trinitarians all that different from Catholics (minus the Pope)?  Are all those tiny local Protestant churches all that different?  Is the Anglican Church different from Episcopalians?  Lutheran and Methodist theists both seem to follow "the bible only".

Each of those could negotiate some slight differences and join to continue.  As I said, I hope they don't.  I would love to see all theisms vanish.  But they could start merging for scammy self-survival...

Yeah, I don't think the separate denominations are ready to merge. United Methodists have been splitting off over the last few years. Anglican churches are doing the same. Lutherans did a decade ago. Maybe the southern anti-LGBTQ+ churches could find common ground & the pro-LGBTQ+ churches could, but none of them have a good track record. Nobody wants to put up with a bunch of Pentecostals joining them.

[Rhythmcs]

They did this politically, anyway, which was arguably better for them. All the benefits, none of the effort.

[adey67]

Smaller ones would do well as community centers.

Don't forget whorehouses.  That's really appropriate!

And turn some into satanic temples (just to piss them off a little bit more).

[Rhythmcs]

They appear to have done a bangup job of that themselves.

[Minimalist]

Put <  The Great Schism of 1054 > into Google and see why the Western and Eastern churches are still separate.

There were doctrinal disputes of such overarching importance as whether or not "unleavened bread" could be used for a communion cookie but the big thing was that the fucking pope wanted to be the boss and the eastern church told him to go fuck himself.  They then "excommunicated" each other!  

Historically, though, it does provide an explanation for why the 4th Crusade sacked and looted Constantinople.  The fucking pope had told them that these were not "xtians."  They were heretics.... and some jews and so "Go Get 'Em, Boys" became the order of the day.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Seems pertinent to me:

Only half of Americans now say they are sure God exists.

That finding, from the closely watched General Social Survey, stands out among several nuggets of new data about religion in America.

Not quite 50 percent of Americans say they have no doubt about the existence of God, according to the 2022 survey, released Wednesday by NORC, the University of Chicago research organization. As recently as 2008, the share of sure-believers topped 60 percent.

Thirty-four percent of Americans never go to church, NORC found, the highest figure recorded in five decades of surveys.

Another new report, from the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI), said that 27 percent of Americans claimed no religion in 2022, up from 19 percent in 2012 and 16 percent in 2006.

The PRRI report tracks a historic decline in the nation’s Christian population, especially among white people. The share of Americans who identify as white evangelical Protestants has dwindled from 23 percent to 14 percent since 2006. The share of mainline white Protestants has fallen from 18 percent to 14 percent. White Catholics have declined from 16 percent of the population to 13 percent.

That is not to say Americans are not spiritual. Nearly three-quarters of people believe in life after death, NORC data show. That number has remained relatively stable over the decades.

Only 7 percent of people do not believe in God.

[...]

To some extent, declining faith is a generational trend. The share of Americans who claim no religion rises with progressively younger age groups: 9 percent of the Silent Generation, 18 percent of baby boomers, 25 percent of Generation X, 29 percent of millennials and 34 percent of Generation Z, according to data from the Survey Center on American Life.

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-...inite-yes/

[Minimalist]

I'm a 7%er!

[pattylt]

Seems pertinent to me:

Only half of Americans now say they are sure God exists.

That finding, from the closely watched General Social Survey, stands out among several nuggets of new data about religion in America.

Not quite 50 percent of Americans say they have no doubt about the existence of God, according to the 2022 survey, released Wednesday by NORC, the University of Chicago research organization. As recently as 2008, the share of sure-believers topped 60 percent.

Thirty-four percent of Americans never go to church, NORC found, the highest figure recorded in five decades of surveys.

Another new report, from the Public Religion Research Institute (PRRI), said that 27 percent of Americans claimed no religion in 2022, up from 19 percent in 2012 and 16 percent in 2006.

The PRRI report tracks a historic decline in the nation’s Christian population, especially among white people. The share of Americans who identify as white evangelical Protestants has dwindled from 23 percent to 14 percent since 2006. The share of mainline white Protestants has fallen from 18 percent to 14 percent. White Catholics have declined from 16 percent of the population to 13 percent.

That is not to say Americans are not spiritual. Nearly three-quarters of people believe in life after death, NORC data show. That number has remained relatively stable over the decades.  

Only 7 percent of people do not believe in God.  

[...]

To some extent, declining faith is a generational trend. The share of Americans who claim no religion rises with progressively younger age groups: 9 percent of the Silent Generation, 18 percent of baby boomers, 25 percent of Generation X, 29 percent of millennials and 34 percent of Generation Z, according to data from the Survey Center on American Life.

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-...inite-yes/

So, half the population are no certain that god exists but only 7% affirm it.  Sounds like an awful lot of bet hedging going on.  I think there’s more closeted atheists than people realize.

[pattylt]

I'm a 7%er!

Me, too.