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A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
#1

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
Poiint 1.

In every case, any prayer if actually granted by some god would turn molecules out of their natural course.  That's the point of prayer:  to get an outcome that wouldn't otherwise take place, and at the molecular level would displace molecules out of the paths and bonds they'd naturally follow.  If something like that actually happened, there'd be an enormous repercussion.  Science would be impossible.

Science depends on nature functioning without random interventions.  Put random interventions into play and ir'd be impossible to derive the laws that nature follows.  You'd set up a controlled study with all the variables accounted for and no matter what you did you'd get statistically meaningless results.  I've always been amused at the studies that claimed to have controlled for prayer.  Nobody prayed for the subject, they report.  But that's impossible to ascertain.  Over on another continent someone just prayed for an end to all suffering.  Nobody told that person to hold off on making such a prayer.  Millions around the world make prayers like that every minute.

Prayer doesn't work (fortunately), so science can proceed to map the course of nature with high confidence that some well-meaning believer on the other side of the planet can't muck up the experiments by causing random interventions.

Sheer statistics DO guarantee that some prayers will appear to have been granted.  A cancer goes into spontaneous remission.  A lost human appendage fully regenerates.  A malevolent moron winds up in a position of political leadership.  5 out of 5000 people in a village in the USA make it to age 40 without having gotten shot.  But that's only because the range of possible things prayed for is infinite and coincidences are a statistical certainty.
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#2

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
The largest of the scientific studies of prayer was conducted by the late
Professor Herbert Benson et al at the Harvard Medical School.

The results were published in the American Heart Journal in April 2006
("Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac
bypass patients: A multicenter randomized trial of uncertainty and certainty
of receiving intercessory prayer").

Patients at six U.S. hospitals were randomly assigned to one of three groups:
604 received intercessory prayer after being informed that they may or may
not receive prayer; 597 did not receive intercessory prayer (also after being
informed that they may or may not receive prayer); and 601 received intercessory
prayer after being informed they would receive prayer.

Intercessory prayer was provided for 14 days, starting the night before coronary
artery bypass graft (CABG) surgery. The primary outcome was presence of any
complication within 30 days of CABG. Secondary outcomes were any major event
and mortality.

The results indicate no effect from prayer. In the two groups uncertain about
receiving intercessory prayer, complications occurred in 52% (315/604) of patients
who received intercessory prayer versus 51% (304/597) of those who did not.
Complications occurred in 59% (352/601) of patients certain of receiving intercessory
prayer compared with the 52% (315/604) of those uncertain of receiving intercessory
prayer. Major events and 30-day mortality were similar across the three groups.

The certainty of receiving intercessory prayer was actually associated with a higher
incidence of complications
.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#3

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
The inefficacy of prayer is one of the reasons I became an atheist. My youngest brother suffered brain damage at birth and never passed the mentality of a one-year-old. I can still remember my mother, endlessly leading the family in prayer for his recovery, all to no avail. She even resorted to giving him water from Lourdes. This went on for years. In my youthful naivete, I had actually expected to see a miracle happen.  Whistling
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
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#4

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
I just don't think it warrants that much thinking.
On hiatus.
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#5

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
George did it years ago.


Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#6

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
The question to be asked is, is there a reason why medical intervention supplants prayer on its own.
If prayer was sufficient to cure all ills why would you go to a doctor?
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#7

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
Big Grin


[Image: prayer.jpg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#8

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
Prayer is one of the addictive ways to get your brain to release serotonin. Like jogging and chocolate and yoga and capsaicin (the heat in peppers) and chanting and, and, and...

People just get addicted to doing it.
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#9

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
People are stupid.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#10

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-18-2023, 09:42 AM)airportkid Wrote: Poiint 1.
A lost human appendage fully regenerates.  

Further to my previous post this is a great question
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#11

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-18-2023, 09:42 AM)airportkid Wrote: In every case, any prayer if actually granted by some god would turn molecules out of their natural course.  That's the point of prayer:  to get an outcome that wouldn't otherwise take place, and at the molecular level would displace molecules out of the paths and bonds they'd naturally follow.  If something like that actually happened, there'd be an enormous repercussion.  Science would be impossible.

If prayer worked then the universe would be a hellscape of constantly interacting and contradicting "miracles". Ordinary matter would have a tough time of it and any sort of life would be out of the question. It would be as if each and every one of us was armed with a magic genie. Of course, this problem becomes self-limiting very quickly given that it tends to kill off everything capable of praying. A bit counterproductive though.

So even in a reality where prayer worked it wouldn't work.
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#12

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
They just don't do it right.

John 14:13-17
"And whatever you ask in My name, that I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If you ask anything in My name, I will do it. “If you love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you."

No one ever told them Mary named him Mortimer Bartesque, and he has never once yet had to make good on the promise.
Test
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#13

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-19-2023, 02:17 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: No one ever told them Mary named him Mortimer Bartesque, and he has never once yet had to make good on the promise.

Or named him Bartleby, who always said he'd "prefer not to"  Tongue


I was sort of hoping @bluewater and @Camaro Dude would drop in here to offer their observations.
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#14

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-18-2023, 09:42 AM)airportkid Wrote: Poiint 1.

In every case, any prayer if actually granted by some god would turn molecules out of their natural course

[Hillbilly Cousin] HE creates their new course. [/Hillbilly Cousin]
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#15

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-19-2023, 03:27 AM)airportkid Wrote:
(02-19-2023, 02:17 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: No one ever told them Mary named him Mortimer Bartesque, and he has never once yet had to make good on the promise.

Or named him Bartleby, who always said he'd "prefer not to"  Tongue


I was sort of hoping @bluewater and @Camaro Dude would drop in here to offer their observations.
I'd be happy to  give my personal opinion(s). I'll use some bible verses as a frame of reference.

This is the scripture I think causes people to get the idea of God being a genie. And I think it includes Christians who view it this way from my experience.

John 14:13-14

New International Version
13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

But a key phrase seems to be whatever you ask in my name. If God were simply a genie, there really shouldn't be any need to ask in His name unless it's a magical incantation. But it isn't. It's a plea to authority under the guidelines of God's Kingdom (laws). A police officer can act upon the authority given them and arrest someone under the guidelines of the law (theft, murder, vandalism, etc.). But they can't arrest someone for parting their hair in the middle because they have no authority under the guidelines of the law.

1 John 5:14-15

New International Version
14 This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us. 15 And if we know that he hears us—whatever we ask—we know that we have what we asked of him.

Prayer is about asking for one's needs as opposed to wants. It's a means of staying on the path given to us in fulfilling our life's calling. And ultimately, prayer seems to be mostly for others' needs.

James 4:3

New International Version
3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.

To add to potential confusion, there's this verse that might seem to compete with John 14:13-14.

Matthew 18:19-20

New International Version
19 “Again, truly I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything they ask for, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. 20 For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them.”

I think there's a practical element of this because 2 or more people praying and agreeing on what they are praying for are less likely to pray selfishly. In other words, if I asked someone, or group to agree in prayer that I receive a check in the mail for one billion dollars, they will recognize it's a selfish prayer, and thus not agree. If I request a prayer for someone in need, they will more than likely happily agree.

Great thread by the way!!!
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#16

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
Thanks for your reply, CD.  It appears the gist from your standpoint is that only the right things should be prayed for, with the right attitude, with selfish motives automatic disqualifiers.  I will address that in Point 2, which I haven't set down yet.  But Point 1 declares that godly intervention would make science impossible, and you don't address that point.  If a god pushes a single molecule out of its natural course, it would obliterate science's ability to encode nature's behavior as a set of laws.

You might argue that a god doesn't push molecules around, but that's the only form intervention can take, so far as I can see it.  Making a human mind feel differently about something than it would otherwise feel would require pushing the molecules that make up axions and dendrites into some other configuration in order to produce the bio-chemical electrical impulses that would constitute the changed state of mind.  Changing how an emotion resonates within us can't happen without molecular rearrangement, such as additional endorphins.
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#17

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
If you would bother to stop cherry picking this holy horseshit you'd see that the verses preceding Verse 13 make it crystal clear that it is jesus himself who is speaking.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#18

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-18-2023, 03:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote: George did it years ago.



It is hard to find a flaw in George Carlin's monologues!
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#19

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-18-2023, 04:12 PM)TinyDave Wrote: The question to be asked is, is there a reason why medical intervention supplants prayer on its own.
If prayer was sufficient to cure all ills why would you go to a doctor?

Doctors often consider themselves dieties. And, since they do do save lives, perhaps they consider it a fair competition for the title. Wink

After all, surgeons replace organs routinely these days. I don't recall "GOD" during that recently. LOL!
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#20

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
More than 46,000 people died in the earthquake in Turkey and Syria.
Ya think that's enough to insure they were praying according to the rules of this (non-existent) "kingdom of god" and it's "laws" ?
What a pile of idiotic garbage. What law of the kingdom did this happen by ?
That the nonexistent monster who caused the quake gets to snuff out as many as he likes ? That "kingdom" ?
And THEN, after he snuffs out the lives of thousands of people, there are actually idiots who have the total stupidity to "thank god" he saved a few
that *they*, (not any gods) pulled out of the rubble, which according to them, he permitted in the first place ?
God damn. People are stupid.

What we see is precisely what one would expect to see if there are no gods.
The great deafening silence.
And according to "scripture" what do they get ?
Nothing.
THAT's the "law of the kingdom", according to scripture.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6 :
"For in death there is no remembrance of you,
in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"
Test
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#21

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-20-2023, 08:54 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: More than 46,000 people died in the earthquake in Turkey and Syria.
Ya think that's enough to insure they were praying according to the rules of this (non-existent) "kingdom of god) and it's "laws" ?
What a pile of idiotic garbage. What law of the kingdom did this happen by ?
That the nonexistent monster who caused the quake gets to snuff out as many as he likes ?  That "kingdom" ?
And THEN, after he snuffs out the lives of thousands of people, there are actually idiots who have the total stupidity to "thank god" he saved  a few
that *they*, (not any gods) pulled out of the rubble, which according to them, he permitted in the first place. +
God damn. People are stupid.

What we see is precisely what one would expect to see if there are no gods.
The great deafening silence.
And according to "scripture" what do they get ?
Nothing.
THAT's the "law of the kingdom", according to scripture.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6 :
"For in death there is no remembrance of you,
in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

Feeling slightly curious, I looked up "god is incomprehensible". I got this:


"Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable. (Ps. 145:3)

Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways, and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand? (Job 26:14)

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8–9)

Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33–34; cf. Job 42:1–6; Ps. 139:6, 17–18; 147:5; Isa. 57:15; 1 Cor. 2:10–11; 1 Tim. 6:13–16).

I have to laugh at this nonsense, but there are people who actually live and breathe this nonsense.

Just yesterday, I read in The Washington Post about some religious school where the children have spent 2 weeks singing and praying to their god (which specific version was not specified) in order to (as I understand it) solve all mankind's problems. Good for them. But I wonder if they will ever understand fractions, history, or that the universe wasn't created in 4004 BC.

On a more practical level, how will they ever get a real job? Well, they can probably flip burgers at McDonalds... Sadly, they will most likely just learn how to make more of themselves.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#22

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-20-2023, 11:26 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(02-20-2023, 08:54 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: More than 46,000 people died in the earthquake in Turkey and Syria.
Ya think that's enough to insure they were praying according to the rules of this (non-existent) "kingdom of god) and it's "laws" ?
What a pile of idiotic garbage. What law of the kingdom did this happen by ?
That the nonexistent monster who caused the quake gets to snuff out as many as he likes ?  That "kingdom" ?
And THEN, after he snuffs out the lives of thousands of people, there are actually idiots who have the total stupidity to "thank god" he saved  a few
that *they*, (not any gods) pulled out of the rubble, which according to them, he permitted in the first place. +
God damn. People are stupid.

What we see is precisely what one would expect to see if there are no gods.
The great deafening silence.
And according to "scripture" what do they get ?
Nothing.
THAT's the "law of the kingdom", according to scripture.

Psalm 39 :
"Turn your gaze away from me, that I may smile again,
before I depart, and am no more"

Psalm 115 :
The dead do not praise the Lord,
nor do any that go down into silence".

Psalm 6 :
"For in death there is no remembrance of you,
in Sheol, who can give you praise ?"

Feeling slightly curious, I looked up "god is incomprehensible".  I got this:


   "Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised, and his greatness is unsearchable. (Ps. 145:3)

   Behold, these are but the outskirts of his ways, and how small a whisper do we hear of him! But the thunder of his power who can understand? (Job 26:14)

   For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts. (Isa. 55:8–9)

   Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! "For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counselor?" (Rom. 11:33–34; cf. Job 42:1–6; Ps. 139:6, 17–18; 147:5; Isa. 57:15; 1 Cor. 2:10–11; 1 Tim. 6:13–16).

I have to laugh at this nonsense, but there are people who actually live and breathe this nonsense.  

Just yesterday, I read in The Washington Post about some religious school where the children have spent 2 weeks singing and praying to their god (which specific version was not specified) in order to (as I understand it) solve all mankind's problems.  Good for them.  But I wonder if they will ever understand fractions, history, or that the universe wasn't created in 4004 BC.

On a more practical level, how will they ever get a real job?  Well, they can probably flip burgers at McDonalds...  Sadly, they will most likely just learn how to make more of themselves.

Their gods are omniscient.
Before anyone prays, they already know if there will be sufficient whining and subservience to grant the request.
Even the very most religious call 911. They don't just pray.
Test
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#23

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
From The Secular Web:

Studies on Prayer and Healing Flawed.

When the emergency technician is about to apply CPR, nobody says: "Wait! Let's pray first."
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#24

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-20-2023, 01:19 PM)SYZ Wrote: From The Secular Web:

Studies on Prayer and Healing Flawed.

When the emergency technician is about to apply CPR, nobody says: "Wait! Let's pray first."

Are there ER people who pray first?  Never occurred to me to think about that before.
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#25

A Cold Hard Look at Prayer
(02-20-2023, 01:41 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(02-20-2023, 01:19 PM)SYZ Wrote: From The Secular Web:

Studies on Prayer and Healing Flawed.

When the emergency technician is about to apply CPR, nobody says: "Wait! Let's pray first."

Are there ER people who pray first?  Never occurred to me to think about that before.

They act instantly. They would be fired otherwise, I should think.
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