Theists: Some Questions About the Nature of Your God

[Dave Armstrong]

[quote="Dave Armstrong" pid='413767' dateline='1704096682']
[quote="Cavebear" pid='413766' dateline='1704096273']
To Dave Armstrong" pid='413757' dateline='1704081886']

I rejected your arguments and explained why.  

Well, you mostly rejected what you falsely imagined my arguments were (the good ol' straw man). I'm well aware that atheists don't believe in God. DUH! As the world's greatest expert on the nature of my own arguments, I also know what I meant and the substance of my own argument, and you mostly didn't get it. I don't wish to be rude or anything of the sort (this isn't personal at all; strictly a logical matter), but I can't change the fact of what happened.

[Dave Armstrong]

It's fascinating that I wrote this long, elaborate reply, answering questions that an atheist asked (I specifically chose this post because he was asking . . .), and what has mostly been concentrated on is the last four words, "the falsehoods of atheism," which were simply thrown in as an afterthought, and have nothing to do with the rest of my reply. If those words weren't there, it would have zero effect on what I wrote.

[Dave Armstrong]

2. No ultimate hope or meaning to life or to the universe,

How could this be true or false?  Hope and meaning are in the eye of the beholder.  Even if a god were to say outright "This is the meaning of your life," someone can still feel that the alleged meaning just doesn't satisfy them.

I simply referred to "the falsehoods of atheism." As a Christian, I think there are many false things that atheists believe. Pressed, I mentioned several of the major ones (from our perspective, of course). To assert x is not the same thing as formulating a rational argument in favor of x. I can do the latter (and have written hundreds of thousands of words about it). I can't do it, however, in the space of four words.

My words were another way of contending that "atheists are wrong in believing that there is no ultimate hope or meaning to life or to the universe; nihilism is a false belief-system." Or briefly, "Christianity rejects and denies nihilism." Conversely, I think that atheism entails, as a logical reduction / in the final analysis / if thought through deeply enough by an atheist, nihilism and despair.

[Dānu]

It's fascinating that I wrote this long, elaborate reply, answering questions that an atheist asked (I specifically chose this post because he was asking . . .), and what has mostly been concentrated on is the last four words, "the falsehoods of atheism," which were simply thrown in as an afterthought, and have nothing to do with the rest of my reply. If those words weren't there, it would have zero effect on what I wrote.

[Charladele]

I don't wish to be rude or anything...

ROTFLOL!!!

[mordant]

How could this be true or false?  Hope and meaning are in the eye of the beholder.  Even if a god were to say outright "This is the meaning of your life," someone can still feel that the alleged meaning just doesn't satisfy them.

I simply referred to "the falsehoods of atheism." As a Christian, I think there are many false things that atheists believe. Pressed, I mentioned several of the major ones (from our perspective, of course). To assert x is not the same thing as formulating a rational argument in favor of x. I can do the latter (and have written hundreds of thousands of words about it). I can't do it, however, in the space of four words.

My words were another way of contending that "atheists are wrong in believing that there is no ultimate hope or meaning to life or to the universe; nihilism is a false belief-system." Or briefly, "Christianity rejects and denies nihilism." Conversely, I think that atheism entails, as a logical reduction / in the final analysis / if thought through deeply enough by an atheist, nihilism and despair.

You are portraying a caricature of atheists as if we were some sort of block.

I am willing to say a lot of things about the prospects of the human race that COULD be construed as negative or lacking in whatever you define as "hope", but I simply see them as rational assessments. Facts aren't optimistic or pessimistic, positive or negative, nihilistic or hopeful. They are just facts. I like some facts better than others, but I am even more devoted to the truth of things as best I can ascertain them, no matter whether I like them or not.

Christianity (and by extension, much of Western thought) is a salvation project and an immortality project. I believe humans aren't savable (at the species level, even if you insist on framing human needs and aspirations in salvific terms) and that they are mortal. Both of these realizations are very freeing and centering once you get over the wrong notion that these thoughts aren't thinkable and you can't possibly get up in the morning looking forward to your day without thinking that salvation and immortality and ultimate transcendence is guaranteed for one and all.

I am seriously concerned that humanity is headed straight into the jaws of the biggest clusterfuck in its brief history, a potentially civilization ending or even existence ending confluence of unvirtuous cycles. And this in no way stops me from deeply enjoying my work and my family, my health (such as it is) and the other boons that I currently enjoy. One need have nothing to do with the other. A lot of the conflation of the two has to do with an insistence on a certain story arc and certain things we feel on some level entitled to. If you have no particular expectations from life or relationships, though, you can enjoy them in the moment and be a lot more resilient.

Maybe some of this is a result of passing through a fair bit of tragedy and loss in my day. I have experienced a lot of unchosen suffering, and I am still standing, by choice, and no thanks at all to the gods. As such ... not much is unthinkable to me. And I do not seek special favors to allow it to pass through me. I already know I can do that. YMMV.

[no one]

Dave Armstrong:
It's fascinating that I wrote this long, elaborate reply, answering questions that an atheist asked (I specifically chose this post because he was asking . . .), and what has mostly been concentrated on is the last four words, "the falsehoods of atheism," which were simply thrown in as an afterthought, and have nothing to do with the rest of my reply. If those words weren't there, it would have zero effect on what I wrote.

Are my eyes deceiving me or is a christard bitching about a response not being on point?

[Dave Armstrong]

I simply referred to "the falsehoods of atheism." As a Christian, I think there are many false things that atheists believe. Pressed, I mentioned several of the major ones (from our perspective, of course). To assert x is not the same thing as formulating a rational argument in favor of x. I can do the latter (and have written hundreds of thousands of words about it). I can't do it, however, in the space of four words.

My words were another way of contending that "atheists are wrong in believing that there is no ultimate hope or meaning to life or to the universe; nihilism is a false belief-system." Or briefly, "Christianity rejects and denies nihilism." Conversely, I think that atheism entails, as a logical reduction / in the final analysis / if thought through deeply enough by an atheist, nihilism and despair.

You are portraying a caricature of atheists as if we were some sort of block.

I am willing to say a lot of things about the prospects of the human race that COULD be construed as negative or lacking in whatever you define as "hope", but I simply see them as rational assessments. Facts aren't optimistic or pessimistic, positive or negative, nihilistic or hopeful. They are just facts. I like some facts better than others, but I am even more devoted to the truth of things as best I can ascertain them, no matter whether I like them or not.

Christianity (and by extension, much of Western thought) is a salvation project and an immortality project. I believe humans aren't savable (at the species level, even if you insist on framing human needs and aspirations in salvific terms) and that they are mortal. Both of these realizations are very freeing and centering once you get over the wrong notion that these thoughts aren't thinkable and you can't possibly get up in the morning looking forward to your day without thinking that salvation and immortality and ultimate transcendence is guaranteed for one and all.

I am seriously concerned that humanity is headed straight into the jaws of the biggest clusterfuck in its brief history, a potentially civilization ending or even existence ending confluence of unvirtuous cycles. And this in no way stops me from deeply enjoying my work and my family, my health (such as it is) and the other boons that I currently enjoy. One need have nothing to do with the other. A lot of the conflation of the two has to do with an insistence on a certain story arc and certain things we feel on some level entitled to. If you have no particular expectations from life or relationships, though, you can enjoy them in the moment and be a lot more resilient.

Maybe some of this is a result of passing through a fair bit of tragedy and loss in my day. I have experienced a lot of unchosen suffering, and I am still standing, by choice, and no thanks at all to the gods. As such ... not much is unthinkable to me. And I do not seek special favors to allow it to pass through me. I already know I can do that. YMMV.

Thanks for sharing these deeply personal things. It gives me a lot of insight into you as a person and how you view things, and a lot of this is admirable and worthy of emulation.

[Dave Armstrong]

Dave Armstrong:
It's fascinating that I wrote this long, elaborate reply, answering questions that an atheist asked (I specifically chose this post because he was asking . . .), and what has mostly been concentrated on is the last four words, "the falsehoods of atheism," which were simply thrown in as an afterthought, and have nothing to do with the rest of my reply. If those words weren't there, it would have zero effect on what I wrote.

Are my eyes deceiving me or is a christard bitching about a response not being on point?

Nonchalantly noting widespread use of the ignoratio elenchi fallacy and "bitching" are two different things.

[Astreja]

My words were another way of contending that "atheists are wrong in believing that there is no ultimate hope or meaning to life or to the universe; nihilism is a false belief-system." Or briefly, "Christianity rejects and denies nihilism."

Dave, there's a big difference between "I disagree" and "Your beliefs are false."  When you call our beliefs lies you are bearing false witness against us, because you have yet to demonstrate that your beliefs are more valid, and you are essentially calling us liars - despite the fact that you cannot read our thoughts or see things through our eyes.

(makes shooing motion with hand)  Off to Confession with you!

[rocinantexyz]

If those words weren't there, it would have zero effect on what I wrote.

So you are telling us; if you hadn't said x, you wouldn't have said x?

[rocinantexyz]

...and you are essentially calling us liars...

That is a feature of Christian apologetics: that skeptics of the story, must be liars.

[Dave Armstrong]

My words were another way of contending that "atheists are wrong in believing that there is no ultimate hope or meaning to life or to the universe; nihilism is a false belief-system." Or briefly, "Christianity rejects and denies nihilism."

Dave, there's a big difference between "I disagree" and "Your beliefs are false."  When you call our beliefs lies you are bearing false witness against us, because you have yet to demonstrate that your beliefs are more valid, and you are essentially calling us liars - despite the fact that you cannot read our thoughts or see things through our eyes.

(makes shooing motion with hand)  Off to Confession with you!

I don't believe I used the word "lies." If I did, please direct me to it and I will apologize and retract it (or otherwise explain what I meant). That's a power-charged term. I said "falsehood": what WE believe to be falsehood. You do the same with us, so I fail to see what the issue is. We obviously both believe that the other system entails believing in many falsehoods. I have reiterated again and again that I think atheists are sincere in their beliefs, all the while being subject to constant insults here that Christians aren't sincere and that I personally am not (along with being called abysmally ignorant and all the other usual anti-theist garbage). And by saying this I'll again be accused of being "emotional" and having a "chip." I'm simply vigorously making my points, as I always do.

I very rarely question anyone's sincerity. There has to be absolute, undeniable proof for me to say that. I have with a few anti-Catholic Protestants with whom I've had hundreds of hours of interaction, who couldn't possibly not know that what they were claiming about Catholicism was untrue. That's fellow Christians, not atheists.

[Dānu]

Lies!

[Charlie24]

Lies!

If you had given some of that science time to the Scripture, you would have understood, when pointed out, what it means.

Everyone must decide for themselves, but I recommend you begin to learn what's written in Scripture before you throw away more than you want to throw away!

[mordant]

Lies!

If you had given some of that science time to the Scripture, you would have understood, when pointed out, what it means.

Everyone must decide for themselves, but I recommend you begin to learn what's written in Scripture before you throw away more than you want to throw away!

I'm not speaking for Danu, but I will remind you that many of us here -- myself included -- are VERY acquainted with what's written in Scripture and that is exactly WHY we tossed it. I have some modest formal training in the scripture, in fact. A whole year of my life that I'll never get back.

Many atheists ... I daresay most ... are atheists for far more considered reasons than you imagine. And it isn't unusual for us to have more of a command of scripture than the Christians who come by here spouting their various scripts.

[Charlie24]

If you had given some of that science time to the Scripture, you would have understood, when pointed out, what it means.

Everyone must decide for themselves, but I recommend you begin to learn what's written in Scripture before you throw away more than you want to throw away!

I'm not speaking for Danu, but I will remind you that many of us here -- myself included -- are VERY acquainted with what's written in Scripture and that is exactly WHY we tossed it. I have some modest formal training in the scripture, in fact. A whole year of my life that I'll never get back.

Many atheists ... I daresay most ... are atheists for far more considered reasons than you imagine. And it isn't unusual for us to have more of a command of scripture than the Christians who come by here spouting their various scripts.

I'm here to help anyone to understand the Scriptures, whatever they would like to know or see from Scripture.

I won't be here long, I'll be moving along before you know it.

[airportkid]

I won't be here long, I'll be moving along before you know it.

Even earlier than that would be refreshing.

[Charlie24]

I won't be here long, I'll be moving along before you know it.

Even earlier than that would be refreshing.

LOL, I understand.

[pattylt]

I'm not speaking for Danu, but I will remind you that many of us here -- myself included -- are VERY acquainted with what's written in Scripture and that is exactly WHY we tossed it. I have some modest formal training in the scripture, in fact. A whole year of my life that I'll never get back.

Many atheists ... I daresay most ... are atheists for far more considered reasons than you imagine. And it isn't unusual for us to have more of a command of scripture than the Christians who come by here spouting their various scripts.

I'm here to help anyone to understand the Scriptures, whatever they would like to know or see from Scripture.

I won't be here long, I'll be moving along before you know it.

And what makes you an authority on scripture?  Studying it with others like yourself?  The Catholics have more of a claim to authority on scripture than you do.  They compiled the Bible, you know.  They authorized it.  They interpreted it.  You’re just some dude that’s read a bunch of it, interpreting it as you’ve been taught by others that have read it a bunch and interpreted it the way they wanted to.

One of the problems with Christian’s is they can’t even agree on what it says and means…each interpreting as they think is right but with no authority to correct any errors except each other.  Your god is exactly what you think it should be…not necessarily what it actually is or what its authors meant.  You basically just guess based on your own beliefs in the first place.  Thus, thousands of sects and each claiming to be correct.  All humans, just like you.

Why should we believe you?

[Zizzer-Zazzer-Zuzz]

"They're so unused to a vigorous and substantive critique from someone familiar with atheist argumentation"

Maybe if someone would ever actually present some.

[Rhythmcs]

1. Denial of God (atheism and making oneself one's god),

Nope.

2. No ultimate hope or meaning to life or to the universe (nihilism),

Wrong again.

3. Denial of the existence of miracles and spirits and souls (materialism),

Got me there, just cant bring myself to believe in fairies.  

4. In the final analysis, atheism cannot uphold absolute system of morals that apply to everyone (relativism / subjectivism).

A swing and a miss.

5. Denial of the inherent and infinite worth of all human beings (abortion).

I guess 1 out of 5 isn't bad?

Looks to me like you're a political christian, only one of the things in your list had anything to do with gods - so you probably imagine atheism as..essentially, the antithesis of whatever sort of politics you hold?

[mordant]

1. Denial of God (atheism and making oneself one's god),

Nope.

2. No ultimate hope or meaning to life or to the universe (nihilism),

Wrong again.

3. Denial of the existence of miracles and spirits and souls (materialism),

Got me there, just cant bring myself to believe in fairies.  

4. In the final analysis, atheism cannot uphold absolute system of morals that apply to everyone (relativism / subjectivism).

A swing and a miss.

5. Denial of the inherent and infinite worth of all human beings (abortion).

I guess 1 out of 5 isn't bad?

Looks to me like you're a political christian, only one of the things in your list had anything to do with gods - so you probably imagine atheism as..essentially, the antithesis of whatever sort of politics you hold?

Well Dave took his playthings and left this site a couple of weeks ago but I hadn't seen that he conflated abortion with denying "the inherent and infinite worth of all human beings". Abortion is just a disagreement about the definition of "human being". One can have very humanistic sentiments and still support abortion as an unfortunate option that we sometimes have to use.

[Deesse23]

He also lied about nihilism.
Falsehoods and lies is all he has/had.

[Deesse23]

Can you explicitly list the falsehoods of atheism for me? As I am unaware there were tenets to even be false!

1. Denial of God (atheism and making oneself one's god),

2. No ultimate hope or meaning to life or to the universe (nihilism),

3. Denial of the existence of miracles and spirits and souls (materialism),

4. In the final analysis, atheism cannot uphold absolute system of morals that apply to everyone (relativism / subjectivism).

5. Denial of the inherent and infinite worth of all human beings (abortion).

I feel compelled to comment on this too now, since Rhythmcs (imho) was not clear enough

1. BIG FAT LIE
No atheist ever claimed to be a "god". No atheist ever claimed to be omnipresent, omniscient, omnibenevolent or omnipotent, AND YOU KNOW IT.
You should be ashamed of yourself for being such a liar.

2. BIG FAT LIE
Atheists have lots of (different) meanings to their lives. Each one for himself, AND YOU KNOW IT.
You should be ashamed of yourself for being such a liar.

3. BIG FAT LIE
Atheism does NOT equal materialism. Not accepting the supernatural claims due to insufficient evidence does NOT equal claiming materialism, AND YOU KNOW IT (if you are so savvy with philosophy as you try to make us believe).
You should be ashamed of yourself for being such a liar.

4. Falsehood
You dont have a "system", just moral proclamations/rules for each of which there are exceptions. As a christian you ARE allowed rape, steal, kill and pillage...under the "correct" circumstances. Ask the Amalekites....their newborns ....and livestock.
AND YOU KNOW IT..which makes you basically a 100% liar in this context. Be glad i am giving you the benefit of doubt of being a indoctrinated and complete idiot on this one!

5. BIG FAT LIE or ignorant fool. Which one do you prefer?

Exodus 21:22–25  "When men have a fight and hurt a pregnant woman, so that she suffers a miscarriage, but no further injury, the guilty one shall be fined as much as the woman's husband demands of him, and he shall pay in the presence of the judges. But if injury ensues, you shall give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe."

Sounds "less than infinite" to me.

Here, an abortion is even commanded, in the bible:

Numbers 5:11–31 (Ordeal of the bitter water) -- Numbers 5:27: 'Once she has done so, if she has been impure and unfaithful to her husband, this bitter water that brings a curse will go into her, and her belly will swell and her thighs will waste away, so that she will become an example of imprecation among her people.'

Go away and stay away, unless you are able to have a honest conversation!