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Why I choose Bible scripture over others

Why I choose Bible scripture over others
Couldn't we upend all of this pointless argument in the case of christ? You either do or do not agree with the notion of christ. If you do, and christ is real......good for you...you ghoul...and I honestly hope it works out for you. I legitimitely hope that, by accepting some amount of blood currency, you can avoid your deserved eternal torture.

I..... for my part, remain skeptical of the effect of that....even assuming it's all real/really happened.....? If it so happens to be the case that rejecting the idea of killing the better man lands me in hell..well, so be it, I can't -not- be who I am.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote:
(12-20-2022, 01:37 PM)TinyDave Wrote: Christopher Hitchens answered this question better than I ever could to quote:

Religion is a totalitarian belief. It is the wish to be a slave. It is the desire that there be an unalterable, unchallengeable, tyrannical authority who can convict you of thought crime while you are asleep, who can subject you to total surveillance around the clock every waking and sleeping minute of your life, before you're born and, even worse and where the real fun begins, after you're dead. A celestial North Korea. Who wants this to be true? Who but a slave desires such a ghastly fate? I've been to North Korea. It has a dead man as its president, Kim Jong-Il is only head of the party and head of the army. He's not head of the state. That office belongs to his deceased father, Kim Il-Sung. It's a necrocracy, a thanatocracy. It's one short of a trinity I might add. The son is the reincarnation of the father. It is the most revolting and utter and absolute and heartless tyranny the human species has ever evolved. But at least you can fucking die and leave North Korea!
(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Religion itself is not a totalitarian belief.

Is it not? 

Do you think that the utter obedience to a power is not totalitarian?

(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Any ideology can become affixed to a totalitarian regime. In China, the Christians are mostly underground because the ideology of the Chinese government suppresses freedom of religion in spite of their claim otherwise. They have government run churches as a means to control the rise of Christianity. And for the most part the Christians in China stay away from politics.

This may be true, but who cares about China when talking about your eternal soul?

(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Peter Hitchens, Christopher's brother is a believer. And according to what I have read in the past, he somehow experienced the oppression of being in a nation that suppressed religion (USSR) which lead him to become a believer as I understand it.

I respect and admire what was said in debate, but I don't hold Peter's arguments as lucid as Christopher's, in the same way you don't quote Thomas Aquinas' brother as convicting as him.

(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: So we have totalitarian type governments that suppress religion. We also have some nations that are theocracies that suppress any opposition to their state religion.

It looks like the best scenario so far is a pluralistic society where the religious and non-religious coincide. The U.S. fortunately never became a theocracy. It's very unlikely that the U.S. would ever become a Christian theocracy because of all the denominations. The old European theocracy was always controlled by a particular denomination or state church which is what the founding fathers wanted to avoid.

I disagree. 
I think that is it is best that we opt for a secular society.
This isn't because the founding fathers would want the US to do but because it is the nice thing to do.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-20-2022, 10:15 PM)TinyDave Wrote:
(12-20-2022, 09:59 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote:
He's just exploring issues, not committing atrocities himself


I appreciate you recognizing that!

Apologies, I'm a bit late to this party, but are you making apologies for a purportedly omniscient, omnipresent being?

No.  He's referring to CD himself, who is just exploring issues and not committing atrocities himself.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-20-2022, 10:27 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: Couldn't we upend all of this pointless argument in the case of christ?  You either do or do not agree with the notion of christ.  If you do, and christ is real......good for you...you ghoul...and I honestly hope it works out for you.  I legitimitely hope that, by accepting some amount of blood currency, you can avoid your deserved eternal torture.  

I..... for my part, remain skeptical of the effect of that....even assuming it's all real/really happened.....?  If it so happens to be the case that rejecting the idea of killing the better man lands me in hell..well, so be it,  I can't -not- be who I am.

HELL IS OTHER PEOPLE!
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-20-2022, 11:06 PM)TinyDave Wrote:
(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Is it not? 

Do you think that the utter obedience to a power is not totalitarian?

(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Any ideology can become affixed to a totalitarian regime. In China, the Christians are mostly underground because the ideology of the Chinese government suppresses freedom of religion in spite of their claim otherwise. They have government run churches as a means to control the rise of Christianity. And for the most part the Christians in China stay away from politics.

This may be true, but who cares about China when talking about your eternal soul?

(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Peter Hitchens, Christopher's brother is a believer. And according to what I have read in the past, he somehow experienced the oppression of being in a nation that suppressed religion (USSR) which lead him to become a believer as I understand it.

I respect and admire what was said in debate, but I don't hold Peter's arguments as lucid as Christopher's, in the same way you don't quote Thomas Aquinas' brother as convicting as him.

(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: So we have totalitarian type governments that suppress religion. We also have some nations that are theocracies that suppress any opposition to their state religion.

It looks like the best scenario so far is a pluralistic society where the religious and non-religious coincide. The U.S. fortunately never became a theocracy. It's very unlikely that the U.S. would ever become a Christian theocracy because of all the denominations. The old European theocracy was always controlled by a particular denomination or state church which is what the founding fathers wanted to avoid.

I disagree. 
I think that is it is best that we opt for a secular society.
This isn't because the founding fathers would want the US to do but because it is the nice thing to do.

Quote:Is it not? 

Do you think that the utter obedience to a power is not totalitarian?

Jesus did emphasize choice. But what do you think he meant by religion? Was he including Easter religion? New Age?

Quote:This may be true, but who cares about China when talking about your eternal soul?

In a way, our court system practices eternal punishment. If someone gets a life sentence, in principle it's an eternal conviction. We don't call it that because we know the convicted will pass away. But in principle, if the convicted lives eternally as well as the prison system, that person is cut off permanently from society. Never to see what free people get to see again. I know it's not nearly as severe as what the Bible, or even other religions talk about.

When ever someone is murdered, it's so painful for family members that the court allows them to face the accused and say what they want as a means to hopefully provide some relief. Often times the family members might say something like they hope they get beaten to death in prison. I'm sure many of them say they hope they burn eternally in Hell. Probably even if they're not believers or Christians. So if the courts were given power to actually send criminals into eternal punishment, and in turn they gave it to family members of victims of murder, we would undoubtedly be sending some people into eternal punishment.

I'm sure you're a good person, and I'm not going to get into whether or not you deserve such a thing. As far as I'm concerned, we're all in the same boat. But in these cases, it could be argued that if a family member of a victim had the power to send the accused into eternal punishment, they were acting on emotion. But still, there's the question, are there some people who do in fact deserve it? Would a family member in these horrible cases be justified in not only telling the accused where they should go, but to actually send them there?

Quote:I think that is it is best that we opt for a secular society.

That's what I meant.

This isn't because the founding fathers would want the US to do but because it is the nice thing to do.

This part I didn't understand.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-20-2022, 11:10 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(12-20-2022, 10:15 PM)TinyDave Wrote: Apologies, I'm a bit late to this party, but are you making apologies for a purportedly omniscient, omnipresent being?

No.  He's referring to CD himself, who is just exploring issues and not committing atrocities himself.

My mistake. I thought that omniscient, omnipresent being would have the decency to apologise.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-21-2022, 12:05 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote:
(12-20-2022, 11:06 PM)TinyDave Wrote: This may be true, but who cares about China when talking about your eternal soul?


I respect and admire what was said in debate, but I don't hold Peter's arguments as lucid as Christopher's, in the same way you don't quote Thomas Aquinas' brother as convicting as him.


I disagree. 
I think that is it is best that we opt for a secular society.
This isn't because the founding fathers would want the US to do but because it is the nice thing to do.

Quote:Is it not? 

Do you think that the utter obedience to a power is not totalitarian?

Jesus did emphasize choice. But what do you think he meant by religion? Was he including Easter religion? New Age?

Quote:This may be true, but who cares about China when talking about your eternal soul?

In a way, our court system practices eternal punishment. If someone gets a life sentence, in principle it's an eternal conviction. We don't call it that because we know the convicted will pass away. But in principle, if the convicted lives eternally as well as the prison system, that person is cut off permanently from society. Never to see what free people get to see again. I know it's not nearly as severe as what the Bible, or even other religions talk about.

When ever someone is murdered, it's so painful for family members that the court allows them to face the accused and say what they want as a means to hopefully provide some relief. Often times the family members might say something like they hope they get beaten to death in prison. I'm sure many of them say they hope they burn eternally in Hell. Probably even if they're not believers or Christians. So if the courts were given power to actually send criminals into eternal punishment, and in turn they gave it to family members of victims of murder, we would undoubtedly be sending some people into eternal punishment.

I'm sure you're a good person, and I'm not going to get into whether or not you deserve such a thing. As far as I'm concerned, we're all in the same boat. But in these cases, it could be argued that if a family member of a victim had the power to send the accused into eternal punishment, they were acting on emotion. But still, there's the question, are there some people who do in fact deserve it? Would a family member in these horrible cases be justified in not only telling the accused where they should go, but to actually send them there?

Quote:I think that is it is best that we opt for a secular society.

That's what I meant.

This isn't because the founding fathers would want the US to do but because it is the nice thing to do.

This part I didn't understand.

What I don't understand is advocating an eternal punishment for a finite crime.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Religion itself is not a totalitarian belief. Any ideology can become affixed to a totalitarian regime. In China, the Christians are mostly underground because the ideology of the Chinese government suppresses freedom of religion in spite of their claim otherwise. They have government run churches as a means to control the rise of Christianity. And for the most part the Christians in China stay away from politics.

Peter Hitchens, Christopher's brother is a believer. And according to what I have read in the past, he somehow experienced the oppression of being in a nation that suppressed religion (USSR) which lead him to become a believer as I understand it.

So we have totalitarian type governments that suppress religion. We also have some nations that are theocracies that suppress any opposition to their state religion.

You're completely missing the point Hitchens was making. He wasn't talking about the mindset of the leadership (although the mindset of Christian leadership often overlaps with the autocratic mindset). Hitchens was discussing the mindset of the laity.
On hiatus.
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(12-20-2022, 10:27 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: Couldn't we upend all of this pointless argument in the case of christ?  You either do or do not agree with the notion of christ.  If you do, and christ is real......good for you...you ghoul...and I honestly hope it works out for you.  I legitimitely hope that, by accepting some amount of blood currency, you can avoid your deserved eternal torture.  

I..... for my part, remain skeptical of the effect of that....even assuming it's all real/really happened.....?  If it so happens to be the case that rejecting the idea of killing the better man lands me in hell..well, so be it,  I can't -not- be who I am.

Killing the innocent to expiate the guilty is hardly what I'd call a good moral compass.
On hiatus.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Religion itself is not a totalitarian belief.

Please list the Christian groups/congregations/denominations that say they believe salvation is available to those who do not believe.
Test
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(12-20-2022, 09:57 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Speaking only for myself, I was raised steeped in the mythology, and it was only as I grew older that my silent, internal questions started arising. I decided to read the entire Bible to see if there was something I missed. There was -- a bunch of stuff that even to the eleven-year-old me sounded like BS. Still, I was afraid to denounce my own faith because of the punishment I'd grown up believing in.

My parents weren't overly religious but my mother was taking me to the church and house certainly wasn't religion free. It however did not take much more than some thinking and reading to realize that religion is bullshit. If some kid from Eastern Europe can leave it then others can do it too.

Quote:So in a way it's like marinating a piece of meat -- the longer you marinate it, the more the marinade penetrates and it eventually becomes impossible to remove its flavor.

In a way. But we live in age of information and at least in wealthier countries finding answers to questions about religion isn't hard when even kids have phones with internet access. 

Quote:I'm taking this lyric out of context, but this verse from the Eagles sums it up perfectly for my money:

Quote:Well, I know it wasn't you who held me down.
Heaven knows it wasn't you who set me free.
So oftentimes it happens that we live our lives in chains,
and we never even know we have the key.
Me, I'm already gone.

I'm grateful that the circumstances of my youth forced me to question my immersive upbringing.

I think that some people like the chains and others see biblical god as lack of morals as perfectly acceptable and thus see no reason for throwing the shackles away. Man created god in his image after all and tyrants quite often have big following.
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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(12-21-2022, 03:43 AM)Szuchow Wrote: In a way. But we live in age of information and at least in wealthier countries finding answers to questions about religion isn't hard when even kids have phones with internet access. 

Right. All it takes is a functioning brain willing to entertain the idea of contrapositive thinking, willing to question its own precepts. I came to my atheism around 1980 or so, well before Al Gore invented the Internet. Smile

I had the benefit of a father who constantly told me to stand my ground when I believed I was right. I don't think he intended me to take that advice the way I did, but he came to respect me for it all the same.

Too many live in fear not of god(s), but what the people around them will think of them.

(12-21-2022, 03:43 AM)Szuchow Wrote: I think that some people like the chains and others see biblical god as lack of morals as perfectly acceptable and thus see no reason for throwing the shackles away. Man created god in his image after all and tyrants quite often have big following.

And yet others are afraid to question their own precepts even as they can smell something fishy. It's for these reasons, and others, that I work to be understanding not of the beliefs, which are clearly bunk, but understanding why the folks who cling to them do so.

Some rebel against the chains. Others enjoy them. Some are afraid to take charge of their own lives and prefer leaving that task to even more others, who are all too happy to forge the chains enslaving others for their own benefit.

I figured out at a young age that I had to figure this shit out for myself. I had the fortunate happenstance of discovering a couple of great writers who set me on the course of learning how to use reason as a tool. It took me a good five years before I could explain why I lost my own faith, even to myself. I didn't rebel knee-jerk, I just knew something wasn't right, and so I went about equipping myself mentally to figure out why I felt the way I did.

I expect others went through a similar process, and that even more others were simply afraid of where that might lead them and so avoided the whole thing. For some, ignorance is bliss, but I've always had an analytical bent that rejects easy answers -- and my own religious faith was no different.

Believers believe for a lot of different reasons. None successfully justify their belief in my opinion, but so long as they leave me alone, I don't badger them.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
Dude,
Is the earth flat?
Did dinosaurs and humans coexist?
Was the Tyrannosaurus Rex a vegetarian?

Why is god so obsessed with cock?
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(12-21-2022, 04:38 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Right. All it takes is a functioning brain willing to entertain the idea of contrapositive thinking, willing to question its own precepts. I came to my atheism around 1980 or so, well before Al Gore invented the Internet. Smile

Tongue

It also takes smidgeon of courage I would say.

Quote:I had the benefit of a father who constantly told me to stand my ground when I believed I was right. I don't think he intended me to take that advice the way I did, but he came to respect me for it all the same.

Too many live in fear not of god(s), but what the people around them will think of them.

Peer pressure is a thing I guess but even in country as religious as Poland I did not have any problems because of my atheism. Fear makes "consequences" far bigger than they really are I think.

Quote:And yet others are afraid to question their own precepts even as they can smell something fishy. It's for these reasons, and others, that I work to be understanding not of the beliefs, which are clearly bunk, but understanding why the folks who cling to them do so.

I don't much care for believers reasons and rationalizations as in my view they [believers] lack certain something - be it courage to think that celestial tyrant is immoral, little bit of inquisitiveness or morals more suited to XXI century. No matter how many times I talked with believers IRL or on the internet I never heard anything of worth in regard to why they believe.

Quote:Some rebel against the chains. Others enjoy them. Some are afraid to take charge of their own lives and prefer leaving that task to even more others, who are all too happy to forge the chains enslaving others for their own benefit.

If they would leave others alone and wouldn't try to push their primitive agena onto others I wouldn't care. I mean some like being whipped and others like to bow before tribal deity. Not my problem as long as it is done in privacy of one own house.

Quote:I figured out at a young age that I had to figure this shit out for myself. I had the fortunate happenstance of discovering a couple of great writers who set me on the course of learning how to use reason as a tool. It took me a good five years before I could explain why I lost my own faith, even to myself. I didn't rebel knee-jerk, I just knew something wasn't right, and so I went about equipping myself mentally to figure out why I felt the way I did.

I expect others went through a similar process, and that even more others were simply afraid of where that might lead them and so avoided the whole thing. For some, ignorance is bliss, but I've always had an analytical bent that rejects easy answers -- and my own religious faith was no different.

Believers believe for a lot of different reasons. None successfully justify their belief in my opinion, but so long as they leave me alone, I don't badger them.

I started my road to disbelief with - I assume - pretty standard questions about evil. Reading Solzhenitsyn GULag Archipelago as a teenager was a death knell of my belief in just god. From then it did not take much to realize that mythology I was indoctrinated in is just that, mythology and not even one particularly interesting (I prefer Edda). 

Lack of such process is what troubles me the most in regard to believers - I just can't understand how can they stand to worship so monstrous deity as biblical god and even trying to con others into believing that he is a kindly grandpa. If christians would plainly say: yes, we worship space Hitler I still wouldn't like them but I would have some shred of respect for them. As things stands I mostly feel contempt toward christians.
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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(12-21-2022, 01:47 PM)no one Wrote: Dude,
Is the earth flat?
Did dinosaurs and humans coexist?
Was the Tyrannosaurus Rex a vegetarian?

Why is god so obsessed with cock?

He's not obsessed with the whole thing, just the tip.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-21-2022, 01:47 PM)no one Wrote: Why is god so obsessed with cock?

Because men are and as a man made construct it naturally follows that god follows that interest. (?)
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(12-20-2022, 02:29 AM)julep Wrote: To address the basic question, it amazes me me that there are people who truly consider life good.  That’s not my own emotional or maybe a “correct”neurotypical position. I would always wish never to have been alive and feel that life is not a gift to be forced to be thankful or grateful for. Do I consider life good? Hell no. 

I don’t consider it bad either, as good and bad are just language constructs, but Jesus what a crappy argument. What humans consider bad outweighs good unless we add a hypothetical eternity. No thanks, goddo!

“Better to be an animal than a man, an insect than an animal, a plant than an insect, and so on. Salvation? Whatever diminishes the kingdom of consciousness and compromises its supremacy.”
Emil Cioran

(Though there’s a lot to be said about those who can’t even comprehend why they’re suffering but are suffering nonetheless.)

I always say that the thought of all incredibly complex and beautiful life on our planet disappearing one day makes me deeply sad… and at the same time, I often wonder if the grotesque suffering that all complex life entails makes is worth it…

But yes, there is this assumption that life is inherently good, something to be grateful for, a “blessing”… and then I look around, at how much of is suffering, strife and pain…

We had a similar discussion before, hell, more than one, but the last one devolved into replacing the Xtian “mysterious ways” with Buddhist platitudes about suffering and frankly, I find both equally abhorrent. Not as a personal coping mechanism, everyone gets to deal with life their own way (though around these parts we mercilessly mock the “mysterious ways” and “they are in a better place” coping mechanisms while Buddhist faux-profundities get a pass. No, you can’t really “choose” not to let suffering affect you or choose how it affects you… not when you’re screaming in unbearable pain while a cancer devours your body from the inside out or, maybe worse, while you watched a loved one screaming in unbearable pain, unable to help or comfort them, or while you watch your child starve to death (because some lunatic started a war half way across the world)

I also find both platitudes equally shallow and offensively anthropocentric. *You* might reach nirvana through suffering or what have you… the homeless dog starving and freezing to death in the street doesn’t have this luxury (nor do the people in my examples above)

So yeah, whether the good in life (and I don’t mean in the usual disgustingly arrogant anthropocentric way where we speaking strictly about human life) outweighs the bad is far from a foregone conclusion.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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(12-22-2022, 03:56 PM)Vera Wrote: I always say that the thought of all incredibly complex and beautiful life on our planet disappearing one day makes me deeply sad… and at the same time, I often wonder if the grotesque suffering that all complex life entails makes is worth it…

But yes, there is this assumption that life is inherently good, something to be grateful for, a “blessing”… and then I look around, at how much of is suffering, strife and pain…

Speaking only for myself..yes.  A thousand times yes.  Now, I don't think life is a blessing.  I don't believe in blessings or curses.  Nor do I want to bore the boards to tears with an exhaustive list of the terrible shit I've seen, the terrible shit that's happened to me, or the terrible shit I've done.  I'll only say that I'd force myself to watch it all again, to experience it all again...to do it all again, exactly the same way, so that I could be sure that I would be there for a single profound moment I had the privilege of witnessing, which was only made possible and could only be possible by a conscious awareness.  

I watched someone very dear to me overcome a profound handicap in a way that..if you weren't there for every step of the process, you might be convinced was a miracle - hell, might very well be convinced was and is a miracle even so.  If you hadn't witnessed the determination and awareness and pain that lead to that singular and seemingly simple triumph....you probably could understand as a blessing and no one could actually argue it - competently.  I watched a small sentient being, who still couldn't communicate with others or fully comprehend her situation realize something was off, and set herself onto a path that would culminate in the opening and closing of her hand.  Something that most of us here don't even have to think about doing.  Just happens.  Something that people like her, overwhelmingly, never manage.  

It wasn't my victory, I had nothing to do with it, I was powerless in the face of it.  It will never be mine, but I got to see it... and that's more than alot of people get to do...and even thinking about it now I feel that rush, tears welling up, corners of my mouth curling into a smile.  

So, for me at least, fully acknowledging that the depths of misery attendent to awareness are practically unfathomable, all of it, in one single moment, rendered irrelevant.  The only thing that matches what may be a truly incomprehensible low, is the way that this same process, this same thing, allows for an ineffable height. Seeing it just the once leaves me, and I think will leave me for my entire life, hoping and wishing that everyone gets to just see something like it, something that isn't even truly their own...even once - and thinking that there's no amount of effort or suffering that we should spare to make it more uniformly so. Happy holidays yall, on this, the first night of a new year, the first day of many more days, to make it so for all.
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(12-21-2022, 01:47 PM)no one Wrote: Why is god so obsessed with cock?


Because they are big and juicy, and don't call me god
______________

I think I found me a batch of frumious bandersnatch. Dance  
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-22-2022, 11:50 PM)Vorpal Wrote:
(12-21-2022, 01:47 PM)no one Wrote: Why is god so obsessed with cock?

don't call me god

I don't think anyone ever did
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
Camaro Dude, do you worship your god, or do you just use your god as a utility for various ends:  a feeling of being protected, a means of getting out of scrapes you feel your control over is wobbly, getting a sense of having done something noble by praying for things like an end to world hunger, getting guidance for difficult or complicated decisions, etc?  By worship I mean flattering your god.  I asked my religious sister what she uses her god for and she said she uses her god as a parent.  She was smart enough to recognize that using a god is all anyone really does with a god, although it took her some time to reach that realization.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-20-2022, 11:06 PM)TinyDave Wrote:
(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Is it not? 

Do you think that the utter obedience to a power is not totalitarian?

(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Any ideology can become affixed to a totalitarian regime. In China, the Christians are mostly underground because the ideology of the Chinese government suppresses freedom of religion in spite of their claim otherwise. They have government run churches as a means to control the rise of Christianity. And for the most part the Christians in China stay away from politics.

This may be true, but who cares about China when talking about your eternal soul?

(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Peter Hitchens, Christopher's brother is a believer. And according to what I have read in the past, he somehow experienced the oppression of being in a nation that suppressed religion (USSR) which lead him to become a believer as I understand it.

I respect and admire what was said in debate, but I don't hold Peter's arguments as lucid as Christopher's, in the same way you don't quote Thomas Aquinas' brother as convicting as him.

(12-20-2022, 10:21 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: So we have totalitarian type governments that suppress religion. We also have some nations that are theocracies that suppress any opposition to their state religion.

It looks like the best scenario so far is a pluralistic society where the religious and non-religious coincide. The U.S. fortunately never became a theocracy. It's very unlikely that the U.S. would ever become a Christian theocracy because of all the denominations. The old European theocracy was always controlled by a particular denomination or state church which is what the founding fathers wanted to avoid.

I disagree. 
I think that is it is best that we opt for a secular society.
This isn't because the founding fathers would want the US to do but because it is the nice thing to do.

The fact is, it IS what the founding fathers wanted us to do.

"Now be it known, That I John Adams, President of the United States of America, having seen and considered the said Treaty do, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate, accept, ratify, and confirm the same, and every clause and article thereof. And to the End that the said Treaty may be observed, and performed with good Faith on the part of the United States, I have ordered the premises to be made public; And I do hereby enjoin and require all persons bearing office civil or military within the United States, and all other citizens or inhabitants thereof, faithfully to observe and fulfill the said Treaty and every clause and article thereof."

Treaty with Tripoli :
"Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen (Muslims); and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan (Mohammedan) nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
Adams got that one right.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
Can the original poster of this thread explain why, their chosen version is any more accurate than the version it was made from? Why are there so many different edits of the lord almighty's word? Why does it have so many discrepancies? Why are there religious texts that are 1000's of years older, then the babble, that fail to mention jebus, or his obviously closeted "father"?
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(12-23-2022, 08:01 PM)TinyDave Wrote:
(12-22-2022, 11:50 PM)Vorpal Wrote: don't call me god

I don't think anyone ever did

Are you called Tiny due to your dick size or just your brain?
______________

I think I found me a batch of frumious bandersnatch. Dance  
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