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Why I choose Bible scripture over others

Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-29-2022, 01:28 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: And atheists aren't immune to it.  I remember my de-conversion, I thought I had found a cure for cancer or was the first person to walk on the moon or something.  Many new atheists are joyously evangelical and want to share what they've found.

Deconversion is a long slow process, (as is conversion).

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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-29-2022, 02:40 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: He failed to answer why he was here.

The OP is the answer as to why he's here.  He embraced the xtian worldview and he came to believe he is here to serve Jesus.

I think people are free to join the forum to express themselves, to place their views under scrutiny, and to even try to convince others to concur.  The problem is if the discussion comes from a surly self importance or it includes threats of an unpleasant afterlife.  That is when it becomes preaching.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-29-2022, 03:04 PM)Vorpal Wrote:
(11-29-2022, 02:40 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: He failed to answer why he was here.

The OP is the answer as to why he's here.  He embraced the xtian worldview and he came to believe he is here to serve Jesus.

I think people are free to join the forum to express themselves, to place their views under scrutiny, and to even try to convince others to concur.  The problem is if the discussion comes from a surly self importance or it includes threats of an unpleasant afterlife.  That is when it becomes preaching.

Your opinion is noted.
Serving Jesus is not an authentic honest reason to join a community.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
Who has the best scripture, Harry Potter, Merlin, Yoda, Gandalf, or Venger?
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(11-29-2022, 03:10 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(11-29-2022, 03:04 PM)Vorpal Wrote: The OP is the answer as to why he's here.  He embraced the xtian worldview and he came to believe he is here to serve Jesus.

I think people are free to join the forum to express themselves, to place their views under scrutiny, and to even try to convince others to concur.  The problem is if the discussion comes from a surly self importance or it includes threats of an unpleasant afterlife.  That is when it becomes preaching.

Your opinion is noted.
Serving Jesus is not an authentic honest reason to join a community.

Is it an authentic reason to live?

Did you ever join a religious forum?  Why?
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
A long time ago someone posted a link to a jesus freak forum with a "you gotta see this" notation.

They were right.  Those people are nauseating.  Blessing each other and praising jesus and pretending that they were so fucking holy.  So, no.  I've seen what those morons have to say and it is not worth my time.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-28-2022, 05:51 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote:
(11-25-2022, 07:35 PM)polymath257 Wrote: So, you were trying to think your way out of it while not knowing anything about it, had an experience that you interpreted to be about it, again with no knowledge of any details? You saw a bright light in the shape of a man and interpreted it as being Jesus.

That sounds like an incredibly shallow way to go about things.

What, specifically, did you think about when you were trying to think your way out of it having validity? What did you even know about it to think it had any validity at all? At most, it sounds like you heard some discussions by people who believed that you didn't really listen to and weren't interested in. So you were basically ignorant.

Why did you start to pray? Why would you think that would give any way to determine validity?

And what sort of bright light? Why did you interpret it as Jesus? Why not Buddha? Or Krishna? Or the Invisible Pink Unicorn?

I knew enough about the Gospel message to know that becoming a Christian meant giving up the lifestyle of pleasure I was leading. Going to Heaven sounds wonderful. Giving up on sex, drugs, and rock 'n' roll....not so much.

OK, so you knew enough that believing would dictate a change in behavior and even a direction  of change. Or, so you were told. Did you actually do any independent study to verify that this was required? or did you simply take the word of some friends you out with that believed?

And does this mean you were heavily into sex, drugs, and rock-n-roll? Or did you simply do some standard college partying and got tired of it? Exactly what 'lifestyle of pleasure' were you engaged in? 


Quote:Prayer seems to be the common way people approach God. Probably common in most if not all religions with a monotheistic god. Maybe if I sat down in the proverbial yogi position, same thing may have happened. But I don't really know.

Well, yes, you seemed to be assuming a monotheistic paradigm. What reason did you have for that? Why *didn't* you sit down and meditate as opposed to praying?

It seems that you had a good amount of cultural knowledge already that biased your method of searching.

Quote:The reason I interpreted it as Jesus IMO is because Jesus has the ability to present Himself as such.

Circular. Did this being actually tell you it was Jesus?

Quote:To use the ant in an ant farm analogy, the ant has no ability to confirm who created their environment. The ability to introduce an ant to it's environment's creator lies on the man who created the ant farm. He has to act as an outside agent, and enter into the ant farm, like placing his finger in so the ant will feel it with his antennae. The ant probably doesn't know it's the creator, but has come in contact with him nonetheless. The ability to determine who represented the vision was not from my ability, but from Jesus' ability to enlighten one (introduce Himself) to where there's no question.

And there still would be no actual communication between the ant and the person keeping the anthill. And, of course, the person would NOT be a creator of the ants in this case, so your whole analogy breaks down in multiple ways.

Quote:
Quote:And how was that determined other than having a questionable experience that you interpreted as being Jesus and of being God? Are you sure nobody spiked your drink with psychedelics?
Extremely sure!

I've had psychedelics on a few occasions, but was too scared to take any significant quantity. All in of it did was give a fuzzy, forgettable feeling. And I had nothing to drink as far as alcohol. Whether I had a glass of OJ or not, I don't remember.

Ahhh...so you took too little to really know. Instead of that warm fuzzy feeling, you could easily have had a full blown religious experience (many do).

That, to me, sounds like surety without really considering the alternatives.

Quote:
Quote:OK, what aspects of scripture reinforced your belief? Was it the horrid nature of the OT deity? Or the strange views of Paul in the NT?

What do you mean that you attempted to run? I suspect it wasn't literally running, as opposed to deciding to try to avoid them. And how does your failure on this convince you of the truth of the beliefs?

Probably more along the lines of man's overall condition, including my own.

By run I mean leave church, fellowship, and keep God at a distance. Like I said, the lifestyle change was difficult.

What was difficult about it? Why do you label it as 'running' as opposed to simply 'leaving'? How did you go about trying to keep 'God at a distance'? And how did it fail?

Quote:I have to admit, I marvel a bit at people like yourself....good people, who spend as much time as you do discussing the Bible and Christianity. To myself, at that time, to do what you good folk are doing would be aligning myself too close to what I was trying to run away from.

After a while, you develop needed distance and perspective. In any case, the fact that you describe things in this way really makes me question just how little you knew before your 'conversion'. It seems to me that even you acknowledge you were in a culture where belief predominated. otherwise, why would you have so much difficulty leaving?

Quote:Because I'm not here to try and proselytize anyone, I'm trying to be open about negatives. If you ever become a believer to where there's an obvious spiritual (for lack of a better term) enlightenment, hold on tight, you may be in for a very rough ride. It's not an easy road by any stretch of the imagination. The problem with seeking God is, what if you find him? And I think deists find it comfortable in their belief of a non-personal/interactive creator possibly for that reason.

Well, having had religious experiences in the past, I realize that they were tricks my brain was playing on me. Sort of like optical illusions. Which means they were interesting experiences, but ultimately not trustable.
Quote:
Quote:Your description actually shows very little thought at all. Now, that may simply be the natural trimming involved in telling a story, but I have other reasons to question whether you really did due diligence in this investigation.

I did a lot of thinking, but I think sometimes people wrongfully think others will come to the same conclusions they hold when thinking.

Agreed, it is a common mistake people make. But I am looking at the process you described and am finding it to be incredibly shallow on real research or questioning.

Quote:I think a number of atheists that host podcasts, and You Tube channels who promote free thought tend to think this way it seems.

Let me know if I missed anything. I may have deleted something while editing.

Hey, if the amount of thought you put in satisfies you, that is your gig. I generally put in a LOT more time and energy on both sides before I decide what I really believe.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
Christianity isn't exactly "monotheistic".
They have a triple-headed deity they cooked up over their first few centuries, called the "Trinity".
Then they fought like dogs for a few more centuries about how to define their triple headed monster, in the councils.
Jesus said he didn't know the times or places the Father had chosen, so, clearly they have different minds.
He also asked the Father to "remove the cup" from him in the garden before his arrest. "yet not my will but thine be done" ... more than one will.
That's not "monotheism".
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(11-29-2022, 02:20 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(11-29-2022, 01:28 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: And atheists aren't immune to it.  I remember my de-conversion, I thought I had found a cure for cancer or was the first person to walk on the moon or something.  Many new atheists are joyously evangelical and want to share what they've found.

Deconversion is a long slow process, (as is conversion).


Quite powerful video, Buck.  I hope Camero checks it out.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-25-2022, 11:40 PM)mordant Wrote:
(11-25-2022, 11:30 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: The problem however with the vision I had in relation to religious/cultural influence was that it happened in Berkeley, CA. And near Telegraph Avenue. There's a saying that every cult and religion is practiced within a 40 mile radius of Berkeley. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what they say. If you walk along Telegraph Avenue counting religious icons you see in store windows and sold by street vendors, about 99% of it will probably be Eastern Religion related. (Maybe 100% now due to the closing of a Christian bookstore).

I grew up in an atheist family. I only saw Christian icons when visiting grand parents. In the home I grew up in we had a small Buddhist statue in the backyard. We had an ethereal looking picture of George Harrison which I think visually emphasized his spiritual belief. I think that if I were to choose a religion based on personal preference, it would probably be Buddhism. Eastern religions in general have been sort of made compatible with the drug culture in the western world. But I would just have been a nominal Buddhist at best.

So in the context of not ruling out any possibilities, I would say that although I can't say impossible, it would be very unlikely that the vision was influenced by Christianity.

And assigning specific religions to specific nations is pretty hard to due nowadays unless the nation is a State religion, or is a theocracy. There are probably more Christians in China now than, say, Buddhists. I'm not sure if that's what the stats reveal, but many Christians in China are underground, and thus would be unaccounted for.
I get what you're saying. My wife grew up in Berkeley and I have visited Telegraph Avenue. So I have some concept of the eclectic atmosphere you are describing.

However Berkeley is still in 'Murica and Christianity is still the dominant religion and permeates everything, even on Telegraph Avenue. If you turn on the TV in Berkeley you get the same programming I get here in upstate New York. Sure Berkeley is in many important ways a cultural outlier and far more open to eastern thinking, but its outlier status is still in the context of Christian hegemony. And you still had Christian roomies influencing your thinking.

So even if you grew up and lived in Berkeley all your life, I don't find this a persuasive argument.
I don't think this kind of psychological religious influence would be restricted to political boundaries.

Though I live within the political boundaries of Murica in the national sense, The U.S. is full of small nations. California of course wasn't one of the original colonies, so the Anglo-Saxon influence is not nearly as prevalent as is back east. The Mexican influence here is huge. So coupled with a strong Catholic Hispanic influence, and a Catholic ancestral background, I should have become a Catholic.

Then there's the Native American influence in the Southwest, Nevada, and California. When you pass through a reservation on a freeway, you're in an almost independent nation with it's own courts. Native American religion is prevalent in new age religion as well as eastern religion. Where I live I'm a racial minority. There are more Asians, and South Asians than whites. So there's a lot of visible Asian religious icons in the area. Growing up I was very intrigued by the religious masks of demon gods. The drug culture and eastern religion connection is more visible than Christianity, apart from seeing church buildings.

I suppose if I were a psychiatrist trying to make a connection, I might say that individual (me) had a number of visual experiences of various religions, fighting each other to come out from my sub-conscious not too unlike sperm cells, to be birthed into a religious/spiritual experience. And somehow that one church on San Pablo Ave. I passed by won out, giving the victory to evangelical Christianity via a vision of Jesus.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-30-2022, 12:21 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote: I suppose if I were a psychiatrist trying to make a connection, I might say that individual (me) had a number of visual experiences of various religions, fighting each other to come out from my sub-conscious not too unlike sperm cells, to be birthed into a religious/spiritual experience. And somehow that one church on San Pablo Ave. I passed by won out, giving the victory to evangelical Christianity via a vision of Jesus.

The better analogy might be evolution by natural selection.  The form of theism that you chose (chose you?) best fits your needs here in the US at the moment (as it did in its birthing years in the ME and Europe).  And like evolution, it happens without the subject realizing it is at play.  Would it really suit your emotional and social needs to have the one True religion turn out to be belief in Xuitzilopotchili, Aztec Sun God, just because California has a large number of Mexican immigrants/natives?
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-25-2022, 11:53 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(11-25-2022, 11:30 PM)Camaro Dude Wrote: Well said.

The idea of humans embracing a religious concept of any sort based on their cultural location is logical. It actually seems the theme for various White Nationalist movements.

At one time I believed that if one is an American, they're most likely to become a Christian. If from, say China, a Buddhist, if from Saudi Arabia, a Muslim, etc. I even explained this to a Christian person who witnessed to me in High School.

The problem however with the vision I had in relation to religious/cultural influence was that it happened in Berkeley, CA. And near Telegraph Avenue. There's a saying that every cult and religion is practiced within a 40 mile radius of Berkeley. I don't know if that's true or not, but that's what they say. If you walk along Telegraph Avenue counting religious icons you see in store windows and sold by street vendors, about 99% of it will probably be Eastern Religion related. (Maybe 100% now due to the closing of a Christian bookstore).

I grew up in an atheist family. I only saw Christian icons when visiting grand parents. In the home I grew up in we had a small Buddhist statue in the backyard. We had an ethereal looking picture of George Harrison which I think visually emphasized his spiritual belief. I think that if I were to choose a religion based on personal preference, it would probably be Buddhism. Eastern religions in general have been sort of made compatible with the drug culture in the western world. But I would just have been a nominal Buddhist at best.

So in the context of not ruling out any possibilities, I would say that although I can't say impossible, it would be very unlikely that the vision was influenced by Christianity.

And assigning specific religions to specific nations is pretty hard to due nowadays unless the nation is a State religion, or is a theocracy. There are probably more Christians in China now than, say, Buddhists. I'm not sure if that's what the stats reveal, but many Christians in China are underground, and thus would be unaccounted for.

You're confusing personal context with cultural context.  You don't need to be a consumer of a particular cultural idiom to be aware of and influenced by one.  For example, even people who were never religious will use the expressions "Thank God," "Goddamn!" and  "Jesus H. Christ."   I suspect you're committing various errors of thought in your evaluations, but enough said about that; we can only work with what we have.
No, I understood what you meant. This theory has been around awhile.

But I think I figured out what happened if somehow the theory were true.

One of my favorite all time rock/metal bands, Black Sabbath would be the culprit. With their various Christian religious imagery, and their lyrics which preach anti-drug, and Christian God sermons.
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(11-30-2022, 12:28 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(11-30-2022, 12:21 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote: I suppose if I were a psychiatrist trying to make a connection, I might say that individual (me) had a number of visual experiences of various religions, fighting each other to come out from my sub-conscious not too unlike sperm cells, to be birthed into a religious/spiritual experience. And somehow that one church on San Pablo Ave. I passed by won out, giving the victory to evangelical Christianity via a vision of Jesus.

The better analogy might be evolution by natural selection.  The form of theism that you chose (chose you?) best fits your needs here in the US at the moment (as it did in its birthing years in the ME and Europe).  And like evolution, it happens without the subject realizing it is at play.  Would it really suit your emotional and social needs to have the one True religion turn out to be belief in Xuitzilopotchili, Aztec Sun God, just because California has a large number of Mexican immigrants/natives?
I understand. It's like an ethnic Hawaiian choosing Jesus over Kane.

From an evolution standpoint, where did the need for choosing a god begin?

And does atheism suit emotional and social needs? Does it provide any comfort?
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-30-2022, 12:53 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote: And does atheism suit emotional and social needs? Does it provide any comfort?

There are many forms of atheism so the answer can vary broadly on those points. At it's simplest, atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities which cannot fulfill an emotional need per say at least I would hardly see how it could. In many circles, it could be said that atheism suit a social need though. If all your peers are atheists, a believer might be feeling alienated from the group.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
[Image: frustration-me.gif]

It's like watching a mechanical clock with a few cogs missing from the main gear causing it to lock up and refuse to turn. I think perhaps our friend has a neurotic need for Christianity to be true.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-30-2022, 12:53 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote:
(11-30-2022, 12:28 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: The better analogy might be evolution by natural selection.  The form of theism that you chose (chose you?) best fits your needs here in the US at the moment (as it did in its birthing years in the ME and Europe).  And like evolution, it happens without the subject realizing it is at play.  Would it really suit your emotional and social needs to have the one True religion turn out to be belief in Xuitzilopotchili, Aztec Sun God, just because California has a large number of Mexican immigrants/natives?
I understand. It's like an ethnic Hawaiian choosing Jesus over Kane.

From an evolution standpoint, where did the need for choosing a god begin?

And does atheism suit emotional and social needs? Does it provide any comfort?

Personally I dislike atheism because it suits only a couple emotional needs (social needs would depend on context; is one among atheists or theists?).  I just see no other choice but to choose what I believe is true (as do you I assume).

I think Christianity fills holes ("God sized holes" is I believe the phrasing) in its warmth and promise and forgiveness and inclusiveness, etc.  It is exactly what one would manufacture if one were producing a religion purposely, in the same way living beings seem "purposely" produced by evolution.  So I think religion in general and Christianity in specific are filling needs evolution created kind of accidentally (consciousness, need for purpose, curiosity, need to have answers and certainty, fear of death, etc.).
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(11-30-2022, 12:42 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote: One of my favorite all time rock/metal bands, Black Sabbath would be the culprit. With their various Christian religious imagery, and their lyrics which preach anti-drug, and Christian God sermons.

Huge Sabs fan here, and yes, on many tracks Ozzy struck me as an itinerant preacher coming back in from forty days of fasting in the desert. It's funny how many don't get that aspect. I wouldn't call Butler's lyrics "sermons", but they're definitely full of Christian imagery and some points of agreement.
On hiatus.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-30-2022, 12:53 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote: And does atheism suit emotional and social needs? Does it provide any comfort?

I don't look to my lack of faith to provide for those needs. I'm not an atheist because it feels good or gives me a broader social network. I don't believe in god(s) because they strike me as craptastic just-so stories. I get my comfort from real people who shower my life with real love, rather than this or that angry-creator/father-figure whose provenance is questionable and whose attitudes are repellent.
On hiatus.
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(11-30-2022, 01:03 AM)epronovost Wrote:
(11-30-2022, 12:53 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote: And does atheism suit emotional and social needs? Does it provide any comfort?

There are many forms of atheism so the answer can vary broadly on those points. At it's simplest, atheism is simply a lack of belief in deities which cannot fulfill an emotional need per say at least I would hardly see how it could. In many circles, it could be said that atheism suit a social need though. If all your peers are atheists, a believer might be feeling alienated from the group.
I suppose one could say there are many forms of Christianity, in the sense of denominationalism. But probably more accurate to say there are many types of Christians in terms of personality, cultural influence, etc., that would make it difficult to assess their conversion or belief reasons.

I think for some atheism provides a social need. There seems to be certain atheist spokesmen, or leaders that gain a following in similar fashion to religious leaders. I think in some circles, like universities, students may be swayed in the direction of atheism to avoid being labeled as less than intelligent. I think some may embrace a certain amount of pride in being mentally strong, just as a Christian might have pride about having the true religion, or being chosen, thus special.
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(11-30-2022, 12:53 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote: And does atheism suit emotional and social needs? Does it provide any comfort?

Yes it does, there are a number of non-believing communities to choose from, if that's what you need.
These days there are Humanist chaplains and pastors of many stripes ... you live in a tiny backward city ?
But even if it didn't, we don't get to decide what the truth is by how well it suits our emotional and social needs.
(That's a strange statement from someone who *claims* to have been an atheist.)
It's also known as Utilitarianism. A religion should be embraced by the way it fulfills your needs ? Really ?
A group of drug addicts might help you fulfill your needs. You should look up Utilitarianism, and see what happens under it.
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(11-30-2022, 01:14 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(11-30-2022, 12:53 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote: I understand. It's like an ethnic Hawaiian choosing Jesus over Kane.

From an evolution standpoint, where did the need for choosing a god begin?

And does atheism suit emotional and social needs? Does it provide any comfort?

Personally I dislike atheism because it suits only a couple emotional needs (social needs would depend on context; is one among atheists or theists?).  I just see no other choice but to choose what I believe is true (as do you I assume).

I think Christianity fills holes ("God sized holes" is I believe the phrasing) in its warmth and promise and forgiveness and inclusiveness, etc.  It is exactly what one would manufacture if one were producing a religion purposely, in the same way living beings seem "purposely" produced by evolution.  So I think religion in general and Christianity in specific are filling needs evolution created kind of accidentally (consciousness, need for purpose, curiosity, need to have answers and certainty, fear of death, etc.).
I'm guessing God sized holes suggests a void that humans, or some humans have that need filled unless that void/need is somehow overcome. If I'm wrong, correct me.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-30-2022, 02:09 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote:
(11-30-2022, 01:14 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Personally I dislike atheism because it suits only a couple emotional needs (social needs would depend on context; is one among atheists or theists?).  I just see no other choice but to choose what I believe is true (as do you I assume).

I think Christianity fills holes ("God sized holes" is I believe the phrasing) in its warmth and promise and forgiveness and inclusiveness, etc.  It is exactly what one would manufacture if one were producing a religion purposely, in the same way living beings seem "purposely" produced by evolution.  So I think religion in general and Christianity in specific are filling needs evolution created kind of accidentally (consciousness, need for purpose, curiosity, need to have answers and certainty, fear of death, etc.).
I'm guessing God sized holes suggests a void that humans, or some humans have that need filled unless that void/need is somehow overcome. If I'm wrong, correct me.

Correct.  Our difference would be in interpretation of how it came to be.  The filling of it or not filling of it is important but secondary to the question of existence of a god.
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
(11-30-2022, 01:19 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(11-30-2022, 12:42 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote: One of my favorite all time rock/metal bands, Black Sabbath would be the culprit. With their various Christian religious imagery, and their lyrics which preach anti-drug, and Christian God sermons.

Huge Sabs fan here, and yes, on many tracks Ozzy struck me as an itinerant preacher coming back in from forty days of fasting in the desert. It's funny how many don't get that aspect. I wouldn't call Butler's lyrics "sermons", but they're definitely full of Christian imagery and some points of agreement.
I have a lot of respect for Black Sabbath, Deep Purple, and Iron Maiden. I think they're on another level. I think a lot of their Christian imagery derives from watching those old British horror movies, like the Hammer films, Boris Karloff films, etc. I'm pretty sure the song N.I.B. is influenced by Dracula, or the number of vampire movies that sort of create a romance between the dark underworld world and human women.
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(11-30-2022, 01:24 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(11-30-2022, 12:53 AM)Camaro Dude Wrote: And does atheism suit emotional and social needs? Does it provide any comfort?

I don't look to my lack of faith to provide for those needs. I'm not an atheist because it feels good or gives me a broader social network. I don't believe in god(s) because they strike me as craptastic just-so stories. I get my comfort from real people who shower my life with real love, rather than this or that angry-creator/father-figure whose provenance is questionable and whose attitudes are repellent.
But of course you're just one example. Do you think somewhere in the vast atheist community, there may be those that do get a sense of comfort, good feelings? Maybe because they felt enlightened by reading a book by a brilliant person like Richard Dawkins?
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Why I choose Bible scripture over others
Just ask your Jesus, "What's in this for me ?"

I guarantee you when your child is dying from a brain tumor, you're not getting any comfort from Jebus.
In fact you will be very very angry.
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