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What Constitutes Sin
#51

What Constitutes Sin
(02-03-2023, 07:55 PM)Old Seer Wrote:
(05-23-2022, 04:03 PM)airportkid Wrote: If you're not religious, sin could simply be acting outside the law, which is secular.

If you're religious, sin has no relationship to law.  Sin, as far as I understand it, is acting contrary to god's plan.  Inscrutably, according to the religious, we're all born having already sinned.

There's no coherent "plan" in the christian bible, only fragments that are often contradictory, or (especially), so general or vague as to have no meaning.  It's so unnavigable christians cop-out by claiming jesus "died" (he didn't) to absolve all parties of all sin across all of time.

So tis is an invitation to the religious who consider "sin" real and "a thing" to map out their view of what constitutes sin.

What proportion of "sin" really just amounts to acting outside secular law?

What proportion of "sin" amounts to refusing to grovel toward a god?

What bits of god's plan supercede secular law, or even demand not complying with secular law?
There's two law types that are to consider, secular, (man made) and natural law. Sin is a deviation from natural law. IE: a lion cannot sin as it is under natural law and isn't cognitive of right and wrong. A cognitive being can be mentally conditioned to obey right and wrong as designated by one that is in authority. Under the subjection of right and wrong a person has entered into sin. Technically, a person under subjugation of right and wrong becomes artificial man, IOW a product of being made by man and left the natural man made by nature. Anything or anyone manipulated by man becomes artificial, even manufactured products, as a person under secular law is manipulated and changed from the natural to the artificial. Butter is natural as is made from natural butter fat and remains a natural, the butter is merely made but not changed. Margarine is artificial as it is added to or has been manipulated by man to be margarine, which is a combination of water and oils (of any type) - heated, whipped and cooled to form. A person is taken from nature and then mentally formed by authority to be conditioned to enter a specific social order devised by elders. The term "God" in this explanation denotes -natural. IOW, you came into existence by natural forces that create. When one interjects "God" in the works then in this case    God = Nature.  In the secular sense, authorities take the place of nature and mold a person of their own makings and social plan, hence man made. There are only two types of law possible in the universe, universal (natural) law and secular law, none other is possible.  Smile

So, if I fly an airplane, have I sinned because I'm defying the natural law of gravity?  Huh
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
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#52

What Constitutes Sin
(02-03-2023, 07:55 PM)Old Seer Wrote: There's two law types that are to consider, secular, (man made) and natural law.

No, there isn't. Law and justice are man made constructs. These notions occur perhaps as a result of the evolution of reciprocity. 

(02-03-2023, 07:55 PM)Old Seer Wrote: Sin is a deviation from natural law. IE: a lion cannot sin as it is under natural law and isn't cognitive of right and wrong.

A lion is under no laws that we (humans) have not assigned to it. I.e it can not be shot unless specific licences are purchased. 

(02-03-2023, 07:55 PM)Old Seer Wrote:  A cognitive being can be mentally conditioned to obey right and wrong as designated by one that is in authority. Under the subjection of right and wrong a person has entered into sin.

Dogs can be trained to SIT at a curbside to stop them from entering a road into oncoming traffic. 
Preserving your pets life can not be a sin.

(02-03-2023, 07:55 PM)Old Seer Wrote:  Technically

No.
This undermines your argument.
You are saying that there are indisputable laws, this would imply that there is no technicality about them.

(02-03-2023, 07:55 PM)Old Seer Wrote: , a person under subjugation of right and wrong becomes artificial man, IOW a product of being made by man and left the natural man made by nature. Anything or anyone manipulated by man becomes artificial, even manufactured products, as a person under secular law is manipulated and changed from the natural to the artificial. Butter is natural as is made from natural butter fat and remains a natural, the butter is merely made but not changed. Margarine is artificial as it is added to or has been manipulated by man to be margarine, which is a combination of water and oils (of any type) - heated, whipped and cooled to form. A person is taken from nature and then mentally formed by authority to be conditioned to enter a specific social order devised by elders. The term "God" in this explanation denotes -natural. IOW, you came into existence by natural forces that create. When one interjects "God" in the works then in this case    God = Nature.  In the secular sense, authorities take the place of nature and mold a person of their own makings and social plan, hence man made. There are only two types of law possible in the universe, universal (natural) law and secular law, none other is possible.  Smile

I couldn't disagree with you more on this matter.
This is because Law and Justice are man made constructs.
My cat won't be summoned to court because it killed a bird. 
I would.

Further to this, if god directs all of humanities actions, how can anything be artificial?
After all, what ever we do is part of the plan.
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#53

What Constitutes Sin
"Sin" has no meaning in a secular society.   It's a moral evil, when judged
from a religious stance.   Sin is regarded in Christianity and Judaism as the
willful and purposeful violation of the will of God or a transgression of a
divine law.

Ergo, as a lifelong atheist, I have never committed a sin.

(As much as the religionists try to tell me I have LOL.)
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#54

What Constitutes Sin
(02-04-2023, 08:37 PM)SYZ Wrote: "Sin" has no meaning in a secular society.   It's a moral evil, when judged
from a religious stance.   Sin is regarded in Christianity and Judaism as the
willful and purposeful violation of the will of God or a transgression of a
divine law.

Ergo, as a lifelong atheist, I have never committed a sin.

(As much as the religionists try to tell me I have LOL.)

You wash it as fast as you like. 
No one is watching you and no one is judging you.
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#55

What Constitutes Sin
"Sin" was the Babylonian Moon God.  


Probably about as real as every other lame-assed god that humanity has invented.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#56

What Constitutes Sin
You're not flying, technically the aircraft is, you're controlling it's flight.  However, endangering your life denotes a sinful person. An Aircraft is an artificial means as nature cannot fashion an aircraft. Birds fly because they are naturally made so they are "really" flying, and an airplane can be construed as really flying but artificially powered to do so. Aircraft aren't naturally made.  A glider is really flying but it's not naturally constructed as it's man made not by nature.  Smile
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#57

What Constitutes Sin
I have never understood the concept of sin. How can a baby be a sinner when born? Geesh!

Knowing right from wrong is what I based my life on. No sin concept needed.
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#58

What Constitutes Sin
Quote:I have never understood the concept of sin. How can a baby be a sinner when born? Geesh!


Well, see,  there was this dumb guy and this even dumber girl and they ate the fruit of a tree that this god asshole told them not to.  So, there you go.  Somehow we are all guilty from birth.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#59

What Constitutes Sin
(02-05-2023, 12:57 AM)Old Seer Wrote: You're not flying, technically the aircraft is, you're controlling it's flight.  However, endangering your life denotes a sinful person. An Aircraft is an artificial means as nature cannot fashion an aircraft. Birds fly because they are naturally made so they are "really" flying, and an airplane can be construed as really flying but artificially powered to do so. Aircraft aren't naturally made.  A glider is really flying but it's not naturally constructed as it's man made not by nature.  Smile

I'm sorry, but I have not the foggiest idea of what you're talking about.
It might be a good idea to elaborate on what exactly you're getting at.       Undecided
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#60

What Constitutes Sin
(02-05-2023, 12:57 AM)Old Seer Wrote: You're not flying, technically the aircraft is, you're controlling it's flight.  However, endangering your life denotes a sinful person. An Aircraft is an artificial means as nature cannot fashion an aircraft. Birds fly because they are naturally made so they are "really" flying, and an airplane can be construed as really flying but artificially powered to do so. Aircraft aren't naturally made.  A glider is really flying but it's not naturally constructed as it's man made not by nature.  Smile

No. Wrong.
The plane would not be in the air at all if the pilot had not prepared it, loaded the fuel, and taken off with it.
Planes do not take off by themselves.

The concept of "sin" historically has many definitions.
Various actions may be offensive in various degrees, depending which religious system one is talking about.
There is no universal concept of "sin".
Various cultures find all kinds of various things (such as non-Egyptians eating with Egyptians) as offensive.
Muslims do not find "honor killings" as murder. Most of us do.

So, Old Seer, you'll have to be specific concerning what culture you're talking about.
It's all relative.

And then you'll have to deal with Paul Tillich and Martin Buber ... famous Christian and Jewish scholars, and why you disagree with their concept of sin.
And then you'll have to engage with the most prominent ethicists in modern Philosophy, and tell us why you disagree with the generally accepted ethics in Western culture, and other cultures, ... assuming you're even up to that.

If I roll a huge boulder down a hill, and it kills many people, the boulder is not responsible.
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#61

What Constitutes Sin
(02-05-2023, 12:57 AM)Old Seer Wrote: ... An aircraft is an artificial means as nature cannot fashion an aircraft ...

Nature doesn't fashion beehives or anthills either, they're constructed by their inhabitants.  There are birds who use sticks to poke insects out of holes.  There are numerous other examples of non-primate creatures erecting artificial structures and using tools.  If humanity refrained from tools, we'd be huddling naked in caves, shivering from lack of fire, in perpetual hiding from protein food sources only obtainable by tools but that themselves hunt down and eat people.  By your logic, all these creatures including man are sinning by acting outside of "nature".  On the scale of stupidity this notion has no peer.
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#62

What Constitutes Sin
To reiterate, sin, is anything that i deem to be immoral. For i, am the truthful righteousness, i am light, i know what's best for you, and that's to be like me. Think like me. I am gracious enough to absolve you of your wrongdoings, as long as you are willing to comply, embrace, and obey my magnificent and imposing word.
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#63

What Constitutes Sin
(02-05-2023, 12:57 AM)Old Seer Wrote: You're not flying, technically the aircraft is, you're controlling it's flight.  However, endangering your life denotes a sinful person. An Aircraft is an artificial means as nature cannot fashion an aircraft. Birds fly because they are naturally made so they are "really" flying, and an airplane can be construed as really flying but artificially powered to do so. Aircraft aren't naturally made.  A glider is really flying but it's not naturally constructed as it's man made not by nature.  Smile

Your constructs and categories are artificial, false and relative.
Driving a car is endangering your life. Are you saying that makes the billions of car drivers sinful ?
Walking into a school or even out your door, is endangering your life.
The aircraft is moving and staying aloft because of the properties of aerodynamics.
All kinds of natural objects "fly through the air" at various times and places, not just planes and birds if the right conditions exist.
Every single part of an airplane is a totally natural object, ... what you think they are, .. not made of atoms ?
Man is "natural" and thus what man makes is the result of a natural process. Your claimed categories are distinctions without differences.
Birds don't fly because "they are naturally made".
Birds are able to fly because they evolved to employ aerodynamic properties.
https://www.grc.nasa.gov/www/k-12/UEET/S...0the%20air.

This argument is related to the "Junkyard Tornado", or "Hoyle's Fallacy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkyard_tornado
See also Richard Dawkins "The Blind Watchmaker".

Humans evolved to be intelligent, capable of learning and building on previous advances.
Every bit of that was a totally "natural" process.
They learned naturally how to build an airplane that flies according to natural rules and discoveries,
and step-by-step, the *final* technological output was the result of a totally "natural" process.
You may not "see" the process in the final output, but it naturally happened, and there were no "magic steps" in the technological advances which resulted
in the aircraft. Even a primate using a stick to pull ants out of an anthill is "unnatural" by your definitions.
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#64

What Constitutes Sin
What constitutes sin? Ketchup on scrambled eggs. You'll go to hell for that one.
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#65

What Constitutes Sin
In my experience, the colloquial meaning of "sin" seems to be: anything the speaker doesn't like.
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#66

What Constitutes Sin
A sin is to go against God's people.
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#67

What Constitutes Sin
To be a sinner is to be a grinner.
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#68

What Constitutes Sin
(03-08-2023, 08:46 AM)carusmm Wrote: A sin is to go against God's people.

Even in your limited view of things, "sin" isn't even "against God's people". It is going "against God itself" (accepting a broad definition of "God" across many theisms). "God's people" according to all religions have nothing to say about the matter. If you are going to be an idiot, at least get your terms right!
Never argue with people who type fast and have too much time on their hands...
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#69

What Constitutes Sin
(03-08-2023, 11:02 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(03-08-2023, 08:46 AM)carusmm Wrote: A sin is to go against God's people.

Even in your limited view of things, "sin" isn't even "against God's people".  It is going "against God itself"  (accepting a broad definition of "God" across many theisms).  "God's people" according to all religions have nothing to say about the matter.  If you are going to be an idiot, at least get your terms right!

God is an absentee landlord. Who sits in the place of God?
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#70

What Constitutes Sin
(03-08-2023, 11:12 AM)carusmm Wrote:
(03-08-2023, 11:02 AM)Cavebear Wrote: Even in your limited view of things, "sin" isn't even "against God's people".  It is going "against God itself"  (accepting a broad definition of "God" across many theisms).  "God's people" according to all religions have nothing to say about the matter.  If you are going to be an idiot, at least get your terms right!

God is an absentee landlord. Who sits in the place of God?

Humanity.
Never argue with people who type fast and have too much time on their hands...
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#71

What Constitutes Sin
(03-08-2023, 11:21 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(03-08-2023, 11:12 AM)carusmm Wrote: God is an absentee landlord. Who sits in the place of God?

Humanity.

Methinks, fascists.
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#72

What Constitutes Sin
As Groucho Marx said, Humor is reason gone mad. There's truth behind every lie.
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