Richard Dawkins falls for fascist talking points

[GenesisNemesis]

 

For those unaware Murray's new book is an anti-immigrant screed. Not all that surprising, but it's sickening how so-called intellectuals fall for this propaganda.

[abaris]

 

For those unaware Murray's new book is an anti-immigrant screed. Not all that surprising, but it's sickening how so-called intellectuals fall for this propaganda.

One of the reasons why I never felt the need to associate myself with the so called prominent atheists. Dawkins has at least a sense of humour in what he is presenting, but Harris only oozes bitterness, hatred and dubious theories.

[Thumpalumpacus]

 

For those unaware Murray's new book is an anti-immigrant screed. Not all that surprising, but it's sickening how so-called intellectuals fall for this propaganda.

What are the talking-points he's defending?

[GenesisNemesis]

What are the talking-points he's defending?

Here's the blurb for the book to give you an idea:

China has concentration camps now. Why do Westerners claim our sins are unique?

It is now in vogue to celebrate non-Western cultures and disparage Western ones. Some of this is a much-needed reckoning, but much of it fatally undermines the very things that created the greatest, most humane civilization in the word.

In The War on the West, Douglas Murray shows how many well-meaning people have been fooled by hypocritical and inconsistent anti-West rhetoric. After all, if we must discard the ideas of Kant, Hume, and Mill for their opinions on race, shouldn’t we discard Marx, whose work is peppered with racial slurs and anti-Semitism? Embers of racism remain to be stamped out in America, but what about the raging racist inferno in the Middle East and Asia?

It’s not just dishonest scholars who benefit from this intellectual fraud but hostile nations and human rights abusers hoping to distract from their own ongoing villainy. Dictators who slaughter their own people are happy to jump on the “America is a racist country” bandwagon and mimic the language of antiracism and “pro-justice” movements as PR while making authoritarian conquests.

If the West is to survive, it must be defended. The War on the West is not only an incisive takedown of foolish anti-Western arguments but also a rigorous new apologetic for civilization itself.

I mean, that's just whataboutism, which as we all know is a common fascist rhetorical tactic.

[Minimalist]

China has concentration camps now. Why do Westerners claim our sins are unique?

Because we invented them?  Just a guess.


(The British invented them during the Boer Wars, not the Germans.)

[GenesisNemesis]

You know what's funny? Douglas Murray admires and apparently is buddies with Viktor Orbán, Hungarian dictator.

[HappySkeptic]

I haven't read the book, or know anything about the author.

Dawkins has said stupid stuff in the past, and will again. However, believing in Western liberal values is currently out of vogue among ... some liberals. They are so into self-loathing that they are willing to declare a false equivalence between China and the U.S., or Russian and the U.S., or North and South Korea. Hey aren't we all guilty of sins, and no country or regime is really any better than any other?

Being introspective of our own faults is good. Being xenophobic about other cultures is generally bad. However, being blind to the faults of others in order to seem "liberal" is actually the opposite of liberal.

[abaris]

Because we invented them?  Just a guess.


(The British invented them during the Boer Wars, not the Germans.)

Which would be a discussion in itself, since outspoken racists such as the Boers were put into these camps. Which in turn didn't even begin to compare to what the nazi concentration camps were.

[Alan V]

However, believing in Western liberal values is currently out of vogue among ... some liberals.  They are so into self-loathing that they are willing to declare a false equivalence between China and the U.S., or Russian and the U.S., or North and South Korea.  Hey aren't we all guilty of sins, and no country or regime is really any better than any other?

The last person I remember saying something like that was ... Donald Trump.

[Thumpalumpacus]

The last person I remember saying something like that was ... Donald Trump.

So what country is sinless?

[GenesisNemesis]

So what country is sinless?

No country is sinless, but "we're all bad" is often used as an excuse to justify atrocities.

[abaris]

No country is sinless, but "we're all bad" is often used as an excuse to justify atrocities.

And the more powerful a country is, the more responsibility it has and the more damage it can do, if taken down the wrong path.

[Thumpalumpacus]

No country is sinless, but "we're all bad" is often used as an excuse to justify atrocities.

I was replying specifically to Alan's insinuation that holding this view implies support for Trump.

[Minimalist]

Which would be a discussion in itself, since outspoken racists such as the Boers were put into these camps.

And the British weren't?

In 1937, Churchill stated that "I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

[SYZ]

Prior to this thread, I'd never heard of Douglas Murray, so had to check out Wikipedia.

He's been accused of promoting far-right conspiracy theories; a number of academic
and journalistic sources have linked Murray's ideology and political views to the far right,
and accused him of echoing the related far-right "Great Replacement" conspiracy.

He also supported Donald Trump in 2016, and is is known for his association with Hungarian
Prime Minister Viktor Orbán.  In 2020 he claimed that UK lock-downs were "absolute
madness" and "simply unsustainable".  He's also anti-immigration and Islamophobic.

Murray describes himself variously as a "cultural" Christian and a "Christian atheist", and
believes that Christianity is an important influence on British and European culture.

—I reject the term "Christian atheist" as being an oxymoronic self-contradiction, as users
of the term presuppose the actual existence of Jesus Christ and draw their beliefs and
practices from Jesus's life and teachings as recorded in the New Testament Gospels.

All things considered, I'd call him a dullard, and reject the French intellectual
Bernard Henri-Levy's opinion describing Murray as "one of the most important
public intellectuals today" as laughable.

—Sorry Richard, you've been suckered.    

[Alan V]

So what country is sinless?

None, but false equivalencies and other over-generalizations don't help isolate the specific problem areas and individuals. 

Sometimes I think the modern world is too complex for our all-too-human mental abilities, so we employ over-generalizations to be able to think.  Simple-minded ideas don't really help us, however, but create their own problems.  

It's almost a "tower of babel" effect in our discussions.

[Minimalist]

Murray describes himself variously as a "cultural" Christian and a "Christian atheist", and
believes that Christianity is an important influence on British and European culture.

I certainly agree with the last part....with the added observation that such influence has been to the negative.

[abaris]

And the British weren't?

Of course, the British were. Every western nation was. And Churchill had just one thing going for him. That he didn't surrender to Hitler. Otherwise he was a racist shitstain on the human race. From gassing people in the Middle East to his views on indidgenous people.

None, but false equivalencies and other over-generalizations don't help isolate the specific problem areas and individuals. 

Sometimes I think the modern world is too complex for our all-too-human mental abilities, so we employ over-generalizations to be able to think.  Simple-minded ideas don't really help us, however, but create their own problems.  

It's almost a "tower of babel" effect in our discussions.

Well, that's hardly news or a new development. We always were tribal. Maybe today's world is too complex for our tribalism, but the over-generalizations and simple minded ideas were always present.

[Thumpalumpacus]

None, but false equivalencies and other over-generalizations don't help isolate the specific problem areas and individuals. 

Sometimes I think the modern world is too complex for our all-too-human mental abilities, so we employ over-generalizations to be able to think.  Simple-minded ideas don't really help us, however, but create their own problems.  

It's almost a "tower of babel" effect in our discussions.

Overgeneralizations like "Oh, Trump said that too"?

[Alan V]

Overgeneralizations like "Oh, Trump said that too"?

It was just an added factual point.  Nothing important, I guess.

[Phaedrus]

Never heard of the guy till now.

Murray has been described as a conservative,[5] a neoconservative[6][7][8] and a critic of Islam.[9] His views and ideology have been linked to far-right political ideologies by multiple academic[10] and journalistic[11] sources. Murray has also been accused of promoting far-right conspiracy theories,[12][13][14] and of being Islamophobic,[15] although Murray himself has denied this.

wikipedia

I will give him this, he is gorgeous.

Show ContentSpoiler:

[GenesisNemesis]

Never heard of the guy till now.

wikipedia

I will give him this, he is gorgeous.

Show ContentSpoiler:

There are guys at my workplace who are way cuter.

[Unsapien]

I don't know anything about any of this, all I know is... if it's been retweeted by Jordan Peterson that's not a good sign.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It was just an added factual point.  Nothing important, I guess.

Trump also likes McDonald's. Does that say anything about other McD's customers?

[Cavebear]

Trump also likes McDonald's. Does that say anything about other McD's customers?

Yeah, false correlations abound. Bill Clinton loved to sneak away to go to the McDonalds (near where I worked) and Trump loved the stuff. I won't eat at a fast food place myself. I saw a report where they spit on the food and I can't get it out of my mind. *sad*

But since they both love the food, that ends THAT political disagreement. And I just heard that McDonalds is selling all the Russian locations. Yay for them for taking a big loss! The Russians love their Big Macs...