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Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
#26

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
This cultsmasher lackwit was banned from AF four times (twice by Yours Truly). It’s always amazed me that people will go through all of the rigamarole to join an online forum for the express purpose of getting banned.

Boru
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#27

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(04-08-2022, 11:22 AM)BrianSoddingBoru5 Wrote: This cultsmasher lackwit was banned from AF four times (twice by Yours Truly). It’s always amazed me that people will go through all of the rigamarole to join an online forum for the express purpose of getting banned.

Boru

I remembered his nick and had a bad feeling about it. After a few of his posts, I remembered why he was banned on several forums and added this one to his not welcome list.
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#28

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(04-07-2022, 02:07 PM)Thingymebob Wrote:
(04-07-2022, 12:56 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Freedoms come with responsibilities. You can't yell "FIRE!" in crowded theater or "AMBULANCE!" in a crowded law firm.

Or "Hi Jack" to a pilot called Jack on a crowded plane.

Or mentioning the Omega Man while queuing up to board.
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#29

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
The UN General Assembly adopted the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) in 1966.

ICCPR Article 19 states:

   • Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference.
   • Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right
     shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and
     ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or
     in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice.

A well-established principle of statutory interpretation in Australian courts
is that Parliament is presumed not to have intended to limit fundamental
rights, unless it indicates this intention in clear terms. This includes freedom
of expression.  

The Australian Constitution does not explicitly protect freedom of speech.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#30

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
What if you're extra super special, and like the center of the universe? Surely then you're words must be revered, and unconstrained by any mere mortal limitations.
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#31

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
Just got here. Should I read this thread?
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#32

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(04-09-2022, 12:35 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Just got here.  Should I read this thread?

It discusses the freedom to speak, but is silent on freedom to read.  A number of states are attacking freedom to read with book bans, so the issue is pertinent.  Should THIS thread be freely read?  There are arguments for and against.  I think the best answer to whether it should be read or not is to read the entire thread first, and thus acquire enough information to be able to determine whether you should have read it or not.  If you decide it shouldn't have been read, you can work on developing methods to de-read what's been read, with some emphasis on recovering the time that was spent.  There's a Nobel prize there for the taking.
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#33

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(04-09-2022, 12:49 AM)airportkid Wrote:
(04-09-2022, 12:35 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Just got here.  Should I read this thread?

It discusses the freedom to speak, but is silent on freedom to read.  A number of states are attacking freedom to read with book bans, so the issue is pertinent.  Should THIS thread be freely read?  There are arguments for and against.  I think the best answer to whether it should be read or not is to read the entire thread first, and thus acquire enough information to be able to determine whether you should have read it or not.  If you decide it shouldn't have been read, you can work on developing methods to de-read what's been read, with some emphasis on recovering the time that was spent.  There's a Nobel prize there for the taking.

I reported this post.
On hiatus.
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#34

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(04-09-2022, 12:35 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Just got here.  Should I read this thread?

I wouldn't bother.  We've discussed the best points elsewhere at other times, and without the rudeness of the OP.
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#35

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(04-09-2022, 12:49 AM)airportkid Wrote:
(04-09-2022, 12:35 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Just got here.  Should I read this thread?

It discusses the freedom to speak, but is silent on freedom to read.  A number of states are attacking freedom to read with book bans, so the issue is pertinent.  Should THIS thread be freely read?  There are arguments for and against.  I think the best answer to whether it should be read or not is to read the entire thread first, and thus acquire enough information to be able to determine whether you should have read it or not.  If you decide it shouldn't have been read, you can work on developing methods to de-read what's been read, with some emphasis on recovering the time that was spent.  There's a Nobel prize there for the taking.

Thanks, that was enough info for me to definitely not go back and read!
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#36

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(04-09-2022, 01:37 AM)Alan V Wrote:
(04-09-2022, 12:35 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Just got here.  Should I read this thread?

I wouldn't bother.  We've discussed the best points elsewhere at other times, and without the rudeness of the OP.

Yeah the Freedom of Speech debates are pretty played out.  I'll just stick with my belief that anyone that doesn't agree with my opinion of it can go fuck themselves. Thumbs Up Smile Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#37

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
Freedom of Speech is just like every other right.
You have a right to what is reasonable.
(...as Justice Scalia agreed with, in his Piers Morgan Interview).

No one has an absolute right to anything.
Not even to life.
The government can require you (well, ... if you're a man) to give up your life if they tell you, you have to.
Women don't have to register for the Selective Service at this time.
Women have never had to register to fight in wars.
We hear everyday the Ukrainians talking about how they are trying to save the "women and children".
Equality, eshmality. Tongue

Just joshin' ya.
Test
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#38

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(04-09-2022, 11:32 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Freedom of Speech is just like every other right.
You have a right to what is reasonable.
(...as Justice Scalia agreed with, in his Piers Morgan Interview).

No one has an absolute right to anything.
Not even to life.
The government can require you (well, ...  if you're a man) to give up your life if they tell you, you have to.
Women don't have to register for the Selective Service at this time.
Women have never had to register to fight in wars.
We hear everyday the Ukrainians talking about how they are trying to save the "women and children".
Equality, eshmality.  Tongue  

Just joshin' ya.


Women can get sent to the electric chair. And you can lose everything you were striving for in life because abortion is illegal where you are. That's not death, but it's losing your life nevertheless.
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#39

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
Exactly what the xristards want, Dom.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#40

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(04-06-2022, 10:41 PM)cultsmasher Wrote: Or in my case, freedom to speak the TRUTH!  I have been banned from every forum out there for speaking the truth.  (Except this one)  Are those who speak the truth unethical?  Or is it those who suppress such truth.  Next, one of the main problems is that you can't speak the truth without it offending somebody.  If what I say offends somebody, and I show that they deserve to be offended, am I being unethical?  Next, I will show you what some people had to say about Freedom of Speech.  Were their statements unethical?

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"Free speech" refers to what the government protects. The private sector, which is what a website is, is different. If a mod or admin want to boot you merely because they do not like you, for whatever reason, they can. You are not owed a venue because you want one.

Now, having said that, there is something to be said for arguing that when self regulation in the private sector isn't working, the government can step in and regulate. A regulation is not a ban, but merely a way of protecting the rules of the road equally for everyone.

With rights come responsibility. Edward R Murrow and Walter Cronkite would be horrified at the abuse that some networks and some social media do in spreading dangerous lies. "Technically" something can be "legal" under current law, but still be totally immoral and dangerous. 

But no, one should not be scorned for offending or even blasphemy. All these a hole right wingers whom claim to be for "freedom" rightfully condemn dictatorships like North Korea and theocracies like Iran. I'd agree that those are not places any westerner would want to live. But even some on the left, as well intended as they are in wanting to protect the vulnerable boomerang too far. For example, if you try to explain to a Muslim woman living in the west, why it is not a good message to wear a hijab, they will jump all over you and call you a bigot. Ayaan Hirsi Ali has every right to speak about her former religion, just like I have a right to talk about being a former Catholic. She has never claimed force should be used in a free society to silence others. But if all one is doing is addressing the logic of a claim, and the reasoning behind it, that is not hate or bigotry.

But even with things like comedy. There is a huge difference between poking fun as a term of endearment, like when you tease your friends in an inclusive way. That is not the same as being mean and vicious because of your own ignorance and fear. Shows like South Park, Family Guy, The Simpsons, Dave Chappelle are not done out of hate or ignorance or bigotry. They are all about the ability to laugh at oneself.
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#41

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
Freedom of speech without vulgarity is what they meant.

Today, if we question the majority, its freedom of speech. 
If we question the minority its racist, hate speech, and bigotry.
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#42

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
Well, idk if that's true, but believing it to be true is certainly why the magats imagine themselves as some sort of minority.
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#43

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
Free speech is an interesting conundrum at times.

We try to uphold it here in the forum. But there do have to be limits. Like flooding, which means that one person, or several, appear and flood the forum with countless posts, all about the same thing. Their goal is to bring the forum down and of course we can't tolerate that and I curtail their free speech. 

It's like yelling "fire" in a packed, enclosed space. There have to be limits. They are just incredibly hard to define without bringing personal prejudices into play.
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#44

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(07-08-2022, 05:06 PM)Dom Wrote: Free speech is an interesting conundrum at times.

We try to uphold it here in the forum. But there do have to be limits. Like flooding, which means that one person, or several, appear and flood the forum with countless posts, all about the same thing. Their goal is to bring the forum down and of course we can't tolerate that and I curtail their free speech. 

It's like yelling "fire" in a packed, enclosed space. There have to be limits. They are just incredibly hard to define without bringing personal prejudices into play.

Bad-faith actors find ways to game any system.  Nothing is fool-proof.
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#45

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(07-08-2022, 04:17 PM)Scoop Wrote: Freedom of speech without vulgarity is what they meant.

Today, if we question the majority, its freedom of speech. 
If we question the minority its racist, hate speech, and bigotry.

Begs the question, what's a majority and what's a minority?

Also, Freedom of speech doesn't mean it's immune to being challenged. You can say what you like, but that doesn't mean I have to take it lying down. It's my prerogative to question what is said and voice an opposing opinion.

Freedom of speech also ends outside the public domain. A private company can make their own rules on what is allowed and what's not.
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#46

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
The alternative is best exemplified in the nutbar tendency to make sure that no one can have anything nice if even a single undesirable might possibly get their hands on the same.
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#47

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(07-08-2022, 06:41 PM)Rhythmcs Wrote: The alternative is best exemplified in the nutbar tendency to make sure that no one can have anything nice if even a single undesirable might possibly get their hands on the same.

I don't mind undesirables, if that means people who voice things I find disgusting on some level. It can result in good thought put into debunking them. I draw the line some place though, albeit some think I should be a whole lot stricter with banning. 

Some trolls are just funny and make for a good chew toy. Others though are truly malevolent and have a strategy to break a forum apart, the wicked clown comes to mind. One bad apple and all that.
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#48

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(07-08-2022, 05:06 PM)Dom Wrote: Free speech is an interesting conundrum at times.

We try to uphold it here in the forum. But there do have to be limits. Like flooding, which means that one person, or several, appear and flood the forum with countless posts, all about the same thing. Their goal is to bring the forum down and of course we can't tolerate that and I curtail their free speech. 

It's like yelling "fire" in a packed, enclosed space. There have to be limits. They are just incredibly hard to define without bringing personal prejudices into play.
The owner of a web site has every right to decide what speech it will permit or allow, pretty much arbitrarily. There may be consequences to those decisions which, if not handled wisely, the owners won't enjoy, such as all their users leaving them (except maybe for a small nucleus of assholes) but what most people don't seem to grasp anymore is that freedom of speech guarantees prohibit the GOVERNMENT from limiting speech, not private businesses or individuals.

The corollary that no one seems to discuss is that freedom of speech isn't some inviolable sacred right that is inherently just "out there" to say whatever you want, whenever you want, at whatever length, in any tone at all. It is just something that is the business of individuals and private organizations to regulate as they see fit, not the responsibility of the government.

The corollary to THAT is that, apart from setting an example by how they manage their own employees, the government can't really be forcing certain kinds of speech to happen, either. So if someone's preferred pronouns or adjectives aren't used, I don't see it as the government's role to step in and mandate it somehow. That belongs to the realm of societal self-regulation and negotiation that is the engine of societal morality. Is it a passive-aggressive substitute for hate speech to constantly misgender someone or to out a trans person's deadname? I suppose that's a grey area that might have to be worked out. But for the most part the government should be both uninvolved in and disinterested in any sort of management of speech. Private persons and organizations have the right to decide how (un)inclusive they are going to be and to set the tone of their discourse, just as much as the guv-mint does not.
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#49

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(07-11-2022, 03:39 PM)mordant Wrote:
(07-08-2022, 05:06 PM)Dom Wrote: Free speech is an interesting conundrum at times.

We try to uphold it here in the forum. But there do have to be limits. Like flooding, which means that one person, or several, appear and flood the forum with countless posts, all about the same thing. Their goal is to bring the forum down and of course we can't tolerate that and I curtail their free speech. 

It's like yelling "fire" in a packed, enclosed space. There have to be limits. They are just incredibly hard to define without bringing personal prejudices into play.
The owner of a web site has every right to decide what speech it will permit or allow, pretty much arbitrarily. 

It's the decision on where to draw the line that's hard sometimes. There are always a bunch of people who want more bans, and a bunch who want less. So, I can't go by that. 

What I don't get, is why the people who want a person banned continue to engage. More often than not, the controversial person sticks to one topic. It's easy to just not engage.
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#50

Is Freedom of Speech Ethical?
(04-07-2022, 09:28 PM)Cavebear Wrote: Well, I can't, in the way you put it.  There are many things you can't say.  I can start with shouting "fire" in a crowded building.  But it goes further than that.  

Slander and libel are better, more legal, examples.  Libel and slander are both punishable.  Libel is written; slander is printed.  And while distinct, they are crimes that "freedom of speech" will not protect you from, if challenged.

Libel is defamation in print of a false statement.  You have a right to an opinion, but not a false public statement.

Slander is a false spoken statement that harms an individual.  

So basically, you can call someone stupid or annoying orally or in writing, but you can't say or write something provably untrue.

Every "right" has a limitation.  Such statements are subject to civil penalties.

In the UK slander and libel can be tried in civil courts, just as you mentioned, but the criminal offences are:-
Incitement to commit a crime, spoken, written, signs, displayed with IT, and so on.
Provocation to commit unlawful responses, slightly different to Incitement.
Harassment with speech, writing, signs, displays with IT, etc.

Freedom of speech/communication cannot include any of the above, here (UK)
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