Ukraine (Topical thread)

[Dānu]

Russian President Vladimir Putin received no support from members of the U.N. Security Council at an emergency meeting Monday night for his actions to bring separatists in eastern Ukraine under Moscow’s control.

The U.S. called his moves a pretext for a further invasion, many members condemned his violation of Ukraine’s territorial integrity, and even close ally China urged diplomacy and a peaceful solution.

(ABC News)

[emphasis mine]

[epronovost]

Ukraine is not a part of Nato. Nato does not get involved in anything unless it involves a member country. 

The Western powers are not involved in this, as much as we would prefer seeing a free Ukraine. The west sits in the side lines here, just expressing their disgust with Putin. Getting involved would not be within Nato regulations. It would be the west meddling in another war, like it has many times in the past with no good results to show.

If Ukraine announced now that it would never join NATO, would that prevent Russia from taking more territory?

If the garanties were good enough it very well might in my opinion, though its probably too late for that. If they did so 10 years ago and the Western powers stopped their attempt to pull Ukraine in (and other countries close to Russia like purge the Baltic States from the organization) it certainly would have. When the USSR collapsed there was a deal that would prevent the expansion of NATO East, but the deal was effectively broken in 2004 with the expansion in the Baltic and definitely in 2008 following the invasion of Georgia in 2008 and a further surge.

[abaris]

When the USSR collapsed there was a deal that would prevent the expansion of NATO East, but the deal was effectively broken in 2004 with the expansion in the Baltic and definitely in 2008 following the invasion of Georgia in 2008 and a further surge.

There's an ongoing debate, if this deal ever existed. Gorbatschow himself said in 2014, he never got any guarantees from the West. In 1989, when this supposedly happened, he wasn't in a position to make demands. He was dersperately in need of Western loans to keep the Soviet Union afloat.

If it was a wise decision to expand NATO territory to the Russian borders, is written on a different page. It certainly didn't build any trust.

[Mad Hatter]

Ukraine is not a part of Nato. Nato does not get involved in anything unless it involves a member country. 

The Western powers are not involved in this, as much as we would prefer seeing a free Ukraine. The west sits in the side lines here, just expressing their disgust with Putin. Getting involved would not be within Nato regulations. It would be the west meddling in another war, like it has many times in the past with no good results to show.

It would be highly hypocritical to say that the West sits in the sideline in this story. For years, NATO has attempted to expand east to isolate Russia which angered Russia for years. Ukraine wants join NATO and the EU in 2024 in an official manner. The Western powers have been funding and training the Ukrainian army even before the invasion of the Crimea. The Western powers have publicly supported and helped fund the orange revolution and pro-Europe and pro-NATO presidential candidates. Ukraine has also called for NATO to help defend it and count on their support both diplomatically and militarily. NATO isn't forced to intervene in Ukraine due to its charter, but it would be a show of great weakness for NATO's member to basically openly support Ukraine before the conflict, try to attract it within the alliance and into the Western sphere of influence politically and economically and then abandon them when Russia makes a move against Ukraine to preserve its own geopolitical interests in the region. The Western powers have been ''meddling'' in Ukraine for years now and they still are and so does Russia. Both powers are attempting to pull Ukraine into their sphere of influence and the result is Ukraine being broken appart and on the brink of war. Now the only question is who will win that struggle. Will Western power manage to pull most of Ukraine to its side and thus isolate and contain Russia or will Putin manage to restore Russia's control and influence in it like it does for Belarus for example.

Except that I think most of Ukraine, not all, want to be more allied with the West. They see themselves as Ukrainians, as does the West, and not part of Russia as Putin is claiming. I think if Russia continues it's expansionist policy this could be Putin's undoing in the long-term if the West has the determination to go after him with even more punishing sanctions. He's going to have a lot of territory to defend and support, and right now, Russia's economy is struggling.

[epronovost]

When the USSR collapsed there was a deal that would prevent the expansion of NATO East, but the deal was effectively broken in 2004 with the expansion in the Baltic and definitely in 2008 following the invasion of Georgia in 2008 and a further surge.

There's an ongoing debate, if this deal ever existed. Gorbatschow himself said in 2014, he never got any guarantees from the West. In 1989, when this supposedly happened, he wasn't in a position to make demands. He was dersperately in need of Western loans to keep the Soviet Union afloat.

If it was a wise decision to expand NATO territory to the Russian borders, is written on a different page. It certainly didn't build any trust.

From what I have read on the subject the deal was of the informal variety, a strategic and diplomatic arrangement to attempt to improve relationship with Russia following the fall of the USSR. When it was clear that post-communist Russia would not be molded by Western political theories, instead falling into some form of autocratic and corporatist regime (a soft form of fascism in my opinion), the strategy of isolation and containment of Russian influenced snapped back in place. Though there is and was disagreement on this issue between Anglo-Saxon countries (US and the UK) and continental European countries (France, Italy and Germany) on the subject. The later criticised the former strategy as triggering bellicose responses from Russia and ading oil to the fire while on the other side those same Anglo-Saxon powers responded to the criticisism as being naive of Russian power and geopolitical aims.

[epronovost]

Ukraine is not a part of Nato. Nato does not get involved in anything unless it involves a member country. 

The Western powers are not involved in this, as much as we would prefer seeing a free Ukraine. The west sits in the side lines here, just expressing their disgust with Putin. Getting involved would not be within Nato regulations. It would be the west meddling in another war, like it has many times in the past with no good results to show.

It would be highly hypocritical to say that the West sits in the sideline in this story. For years, NATO has attempted to expand east to isolate Russia which angered Russia for years. Ukraine wants join NATO and the EU in 2024 in an official manner. The Western powers have been funding and training the Ukrainian army even before the invasion of the Crimea. The Western powers have publicly supported and helped fund the orange revolution and pro-Europe and pro-NATO presidential candidates. Ukraine has also called for NATO to help defend it and count on their support both diplomatically and militarily. NATO isn't forced to intervene in Ukraine due to its charter, but it would be a show of great weakness for NATO's member to basically openly support Ukraine before the conflict, try to attract it within the alliance and into the Western sphere of influence politically and economically and then abandon them when Russia makes a move against Ukraine to preserve its own geopolitical interests in the region. The Western powers have been ''meddling'' in Ukraine for years now and they still are and so does Russia. Both powers are attempting to pull Ukraine into their sphere of influence and the result is Ukraine being broken appart and on the brink of war. Now the only question is who will win that struggle. Will Western power manage to pull most of Ukraine to its side and thus isolate and contain Russia or will Putin manage to restore Russia's control and influence in it like it does for Belarus for example.

Except that I think most of Ukraine, not all, want to be more allied with the West. They see themselves as Ukrainians, as does the West, and not part of Russia as Putin is claiming. I think if Russia continues it's expansionist policy this could be Putin's undoing in the long-term if the West has the determination to go after him with even more punishing sanctions. He's going to have a lot of territory to defend and support, and right now, Russia's economy is struggling.

That's absolutely true, Ukraine does want to be independant and in the early 2010's was fairly evenly divided (especially on a regional basis) on wether the country should aim to ally itself more closely to Russia or to the EU. With the invasion of 2014, public opinion has shifted much more strongly toward the West except in the most Eastern and ethnically Russian regions of Ukraine. In essence, Putin's agressive politics and actions precipitated Ukraine in the arms of his more subbtle and savy rival.

[Antonio]

Yeah, I wasn't casting moral aspersions, just giving an update.

I'm not critisizing you in any way. I'm just sick and tired of being presented the moral card by politicians, who do the same, if it suits their agenda.

Ukraine is not a part of Nato. Nato does not get involved in anything unless it involves a member country. 

The Western powers are not involved in this, as much as we would prefer seeing a free Ukraine. The west sits in the side lines here, just expressing their disgust with Putin. Getting involved would not be within Nato regulations. It would be the west meddling in another war, like it has many times in the past with no good results to show.

It would be highly hypocritical to say that the West sits in the sideline in this story. For years, NATO has attempted to expand east to isolate Russia which angered Russia for years. Ukraine wants join NATO and the EU in 2024 in an official manner. The Western powers have been funding and training the Ukrainian army even before the invasion of the Crimea. The Western powers have publicly supported and helped fund the orange revolution and pro-Europe and pro-NATO presidential candidates. Ukraine has also called for NATO to help defend it and count on their support both diplomatically and militarily. NATO isn't forced to intervene in Ukraine due to its charter, but it would be a show of great weakness for NATO's member to basically openly support Ukraine before the conflict, try to attract it within the alliance and into the Western sphere of influence politically and economically and then abandon them when Russia makes a move against Ukraine to preserve its own geopolitical interests in the region. The Western powers have been ''meddling'' in Ukraine for years now and they still are and so does Russia. Both powers are attempting to pull Ukraine into their sphere of influence and the result is Ukraine being broken appart and on the brink of war. Now the only question is who will win that struggle. Will Western power manage to pull most of Ukraine to its side and thus isolate and contain Russia or will Putin manage to restore Russia's control and influence in it like it does for Belarus for example.

Except that I think most of Ukraine, not all, want to be more allied with the West. They see themselves as Ukrainians, as does the West, and not part of Russia as Putin is claiming. I think if Russia continues it's expansionist policy this could be Putin's undoing in the long-term if the West has the determination to go after him with even more punishing sanctions. He's going to have a lot of territory to defend and support, and right now, Russia's economy is struggling.

Russia is an exporter oil . He's driving the price of crude up .He's the same type of greedy person as trump .They don't give a shit about their country . It's all about personal wealth . He's constantly ripping his country off . 
That is why trump admires him . Are countries going to stop buying his oil?
Putin is shrewd he's edging his way into Venezuela which has huge oil reserves. China won't boycott him . He has a plan

[Mad Hatter]

Another consequence of Putin's push into Ukraine that could affect the global economy

....it turns out that the two potential combatants are major exporters of two little-known but key raw materials in the creation of computer chips.

Ukraine is a leading exporter of highly purified neon gas, which is necessary for the lasers that are used to etch circuit designs into silicon wafers to create chips. Russia, meanwhile, is the world’s leading producer of palladium, which is essential for many memory and sensor chips. The country also produces several other key raw materials for computer chips, including the rare–earth metal scandium.

https://fortune.com/2022/02/14/russia-uk...-shortage/

[jerry mcmasters]

What's true? That this is "wonderful"? That's an opinion, not a truth. I'm pretty sure that's where Min's criticism is aimed, and I'm not sure why you're avoiding that part. Do you think this being "wonderful" is a "truth"?

I take it as the level of manipulation is impressive, "genius."  I can imagine his voice saying "wonderful" in admiration of that manipulation.  But if he approved of what Putin is doing or wanted him to do it, wouldn't he be lying and saying that's exactly not what Putin's doing?  A lot of talk on this forum has been Trump in Putin's pocket, so if Trump's helping Putin, you don't laugh out loud at the realpolitik of Putin's little chess move, as Trump is doing here. 

What is the downside of Trump saying this?  It is true and should be magnified.

@Minimalist can explain his objection in his own words,

His reply to me is above.  Not much depth to that puddle. 

but again, Trump's eliding the ethical implications of Putin's chess-playing is telling, to me. I don't think anyone on the world stage is overlooking the stratagem Putin has made, and they probably don't need Trump's rah-rah act to bring it home to them.

I think the micro-analysis of ethics is gnat sized, this has everything to do with the importance of A) saying something that is true and B) saying it loudly, maturely, from one adult to another.  I think what he said needs to be magnified over and over from every world leader.

Coming home from work I heard the actual spoken words through NPR radio.  Of course, our allegedly impartial govt newscast put it in the context of Trumpian shame and outrage, but my hearing of it, "wonderful" was Trump's imagined reaction of Putin's declaring that a chunk of the Ukraine had declared independence.  Putin:  Oh wow, look, I had nothing to do with it (wink wink), but a large chunk of Ukraine is now independent and needs our support!  How wonderful!  If you listen to it yourself you may agree.

[Dānu]

I take it as the level of manipulation is impressive, "genius."  I can imagine his voice saying "wonderful" in admiration of that manipulation.  But if he approved of what Putin is doing or wanted him to do it, wouldn't he be lying and saying that's exactly not what Putin's doing?  A lot of talk on this forum has been Trump in Putin's pocket, so if Trump's helping Putin, you don't laugh out loud at the realpolitik of Putin's little chess move, as Trump is doing here. 

What is the downside of Trump saying this?  It is true and should be magnified.

@Minimalist can explain his objection in his own words,

His reply to me is above.  Not much depth to that puddle. 

but again, Trump's eliding the ethical implications of Putin's chess-playing is telling, to me. I don't think anyone on the world stage is overlooking the stratagem Putin has made, and they probably don't need Trump's rah-rah act to bring it home to them.

I think the micro-analysis of ethics is gnat sized, this has everything to do with the importance of A) saying something that is true and B) saying it loudly, maturely, from one adult to another.  I think what he said needs to be magnified over and over from every world leader.

Coming home from work I heard the actual spoken words through NPR radio.  Of course, our allegedly impartial govt newscast put it in the context of Trumpian shame and outrage, but my hearing of it, "wonderful" was Trump's imagined reaction of Putin's declaring that a chunk of the Ukraine had declared independence.  Putin:  Oh wow, look, I had nothing to do with it (wink wink), but a large chunk of Ukraine is now independent and needs our support!  How wonderful!  If you listen to it yourself you may agree.

Little early to be taking a victory lap on Trump's comments, don't you think?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Don't forget this part:

"I went in yesterday, and there was a television screen, and I said, 'This is genius,'" he said. "Putin declares a big portion of the Ukraine — of Ukraine — Putin declares it as independent. Oh, that’s wonderful."

"I said, 'How smart is that?' He's going to go in and be a peacekeeper," added Trump, who regularly praised and sought close ties with Putin during his time in office. "That's the strongest peace force. We could use that on our southern border. That's the strongest peace force I've ever seen. There were more army tanks than I've ever seen. They're going to keep peace, all right."

https://thehill.com/policy/international...ed_content

[Emphasis added -- Thump]

As for Biden not having a response, that's patently false. What would Trump do, send in troops?  No, he'd fellate Putin all the more vigorously. This shit's sickening. Trump clearly does not have the interests of America, or democracy, at heart.

If we discuss this any further, let's do that in the Trump thread so this one won't go off the rails, eh?

**********************

Back on topic:

A group of lawmakers sent a letter to President Biden on Tuesday amid escalating tensions in Ukraine to remind him that he must seek authorization from Congress before sending in troops or launching military attacks.

The bipartisan group of 43 lawmakers acknowledged that Biden previously said he would not send troops into Ukraine but noted the decision could change.

"If the ongoing situation compels you to introduce the brave men and women of our military into Ukraine, their lives would inherently be put at risk of Russia chooses to invade," the letter reads. "Therefore, we ask that your decisions comport with the Constitution and our nation's laws by consulting with Congress to receive authorization before any such development."

The letter was signed by Reps. Nancy Mace (R-S.C.), Pramila Jayapal (D-Wash.), Ilhan Omar (D-Minn.), Matt Gaetz (R-Fla.) and Warren Davidson (R-Ohio), among others.

Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-Ore.) shared the letter on Twitter, writing that Biden should "follow the Constitution and the law."

"The American people deserve to have a say before we become involved in yet another foreign conflict," DeFazio wrote.

The letter comes amid growing tensions between the U.S. and Russia. On Monday, Russian President Vladimir Putin recognized two breakaway territories in eastern Ukraine, the Donetsk People’s Republic and Luhansk People’s Republic, before ordering troops into the Donbas region, sparking fears of a larger invasion and conflict in Europe.

Biden on Tuesday announced additional sanctions against Russia but said he believes Putin's advancement into Ukraine could be the beginning of a larger-scale invasion to seize more territory.

https://thehill.com/policy/international...to-ukraine

I fully agree. I'm tired of the Constitution being flouted and GIs paying the price.

No. I didn't forget that part and I disagree with your interpretation. From what I see, Trump was being sarcastic against Putin calling his invasion a 'peacekeeping' force, with all the tanks and infantry. Yeah, right. Sure it's a peacekeeping mission. He also went on to say that Putin wouldn't have tried that under his administration.

Okay.

[jerry mcmasters]

What's true? That this is "wonderful"? That's an opinion, not a truth. I'm pretty sure that's where Min's criticism is aimed, and I'm not sure why you're avoiding that part. Do you think this being "wonderful" is a "truth"?

I take it as the level of manipulation is impressive, "genius."  I can imagine his voice saying "wonderful" in admiration of that manipulation.  But if he approved of what Putin is doing or wanted him to do it, wouldn't he be lying and saying that's exactly not what Putin's doing?  A lot of talk on this forum has been Trump in Putin's pocket, so if Trump's helping Putin, you don't laugh out loud at the realpolitik of Putin's little chess move, as Trump is doing here. 

What is the downside of Trump saying this?  It is true and should be magnified.

Basically, he was actually pointing out that Biden is outclassed by Putin and that Biden is in over his head. Even Robert Gates said of Biden that in his 40+ years in Washington he's been wrong on nearly every major foreign policy issue. Trump also pointed out in that interview that had he been president Putin wouldn't have tried to go into Ukraine. Putin took Crimea when Obama was in office and now Putin is going to take Ukraine now that Biden is in office.

Naturally Trump's view is Biden is outclassed by Putin and he may be right, but he would say that no matter what is going on.  There may be geopolitical reasons whey these Russian invasions happen during Dem presidents, but it makes it a bit of a laugher reading the many "Putin has his hand up Trump's ass" type posts.  If we're going to blast a president for the economy, for example, and it turns out they don't have as much influence on the economy as we think, we should at least blast all presidents equally regardless of party.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I sure hope this doesn't foreshadow the widening of the war.

"Humanitarian" in Orban speak means pushback of possible refugees. Orban usually is up Putin's ass, since, in his eyes, the EU is treating him so unfairly, even demanding a functional and independent judiciary and a free press.

Thanks for clarifying. I confess to regularly confusing Rumania and Hungary and probably made that mistake here, so again, I appreciate the further insight.

[jerry mcmasters]

@Minimalist can explain his objection in his own words,

His reply to me is above.  Not much depth to that puddle. 

but again, Trump's eliding the ethical implications of Putin's chess-playing is telling, to me. I don't think anyone on the world stage is overlooking the stratagem Putin has made, and they probably don't need Trump's rah-rah act to bring it home to them.

I think the micro-analysis of ethics is gnat sized, this has everything to do with the importance of A) saying something that is true and B) saying it loudly, maturely, from one adult to another.  I think what he said needs to be magnified over and over from every world leader.

Coming home from work I heard the actual spoken words through NPR radio.  Of course, our allegedly impartial govt newscast put it in the context of Trumpian shame and outrage, but my hearing of it, "wonderful" was Trump's imagined reaction of Putin's declaring that a chunk of the Ukraine had declared independence.  Putin:  Oh wow, look, I had nothing to do with it (wink wink), but a large chunk of Ukraine is now independent and needs our support!  How wonderful!  If you listen to it yourself you may agree.

Little early to be taking a victory lap on Trump's comments, don't you think?

Not sure what you mean.

[jerry mcmasters]

I could turn out to be wrong about them? Sure, of course.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I take it as the level of manipulation is impressive, "genius."  I can imagine his voice saying "wonderful" in admiration of that manipulation.  But if he approved of what Putin is doing or wanted him to do it, wouldn't he be lying and saying that's exactly not what Putin's doing?  A lot of talk on this forum has been Trump in Putin's pocket, so if Trump's helping Putin, you don't laugh out loud at the realpolitik of Putin's little chess move, as Trump is doing here. 

What is the downside of Trump saying this?  It is true and should be magnified.

@Minimalist can explain his objection in his own words,

His reply to me is above.  Not much depth to that puddle. 

but again, Trump's eliding the ethical implications of Putin's chess-playing is telling, to me. I don't think anyone on the world stage is overlooking the stratagem Putin has made, and they probably don't need Trump's rah-rah act to bring it home to them.

I think the micro-analysis of ethics is gnat sized, this has everything to do with the importance of A) saying something that is true and B) saying it loudly, maturely, from one adult to another.  I think what he said needs to be magnified over and over from every world leader.

Coming home from work I heard the actual spoken words through NPR radio.  Of course, our allegedly impartial govt newscast put it in the context of Trumpian shame and outrage, but my hearing of it, "wonderful" was Trump's imagined reaction of Putin's declaring that a chunk of the Ukraine had declared independence.  Putin:  Oh wow, look, I had nothing to do with it (wink wink), but a large chunk of Ukraine is now independent and needs our support!  How wonderful!  If you listen to it yourself you may agree.

Once again, since you clearly didn't follow up the thread, I will discuss this in the Trump thread. Would you please fucking read?

Quit derailing the thread. Dom's already said as much as well.

[jerry mcmasters]

@Minimalist can explain his objection in his own words,

His reply to me is above.  Not much depth to that puddle. 

but again, Trump's eliding the ethical implications of Putin's chess-playing is telling, to me. I don't think anyone on the world stage is overlooking the stratagem Putin has made, and they probably don't need Trump's rah-rah act to bring it home to them.

I think the micro-analysis of ethics is gnat sized, this has everything to do with the importance of A) saying something that is true and B) saying it loudly, maturely, from one adult to another.  I think what he said needs to be magnified over and over from every world leader.

Coming home from work I heard the actual spoken words through NPR radio.  Of course, our allegedly impartial govt newscast put it in the context of Trumpian shame and outrage, but my hearing of it, "wonderful" was Trump's imagined reaction of Putin's declaring that a chunk of the Ukraine had declared independence.  Putin:  Oh wow, look, I had nothing to do with it (wink wink), but a large chunk of Ukraine is now independent and needs our support!  How wonderful!  If you listen to it yourself you may agree.

Once again, since you clearly didn't follow up the thread, I will discuss this in the Trump thread. Would you please fucking read?

Quit derailing the thread. Dom's already said as much as well.

? Trump's controversial quotes on Ukraine need to be in a different thread?  Okay, whatever.  Post moved to "Trump" thread.

[Thumpalumpacus]

? Trump's controversial quotes on Ukraine need to be in a different thread?  Okay, whatever.  Post moved to "Trump" thread.

Yeah, this thread is about Ukraine, not Trump's opinion of it, unless he feels like logging in here and posting them for discussion. It's second-order.

[jerry mcmasters]

? Trump's controversial quotes on Ukraine need to be in a different thread?  Okay, whatever.  Post moved to "Trump" thread.

Yeah, this thread is about Ukraine, not Trump's opinion of it, unless he feels like logging in here and posting them for discussion. It's second-order.

Love the way you said this to Min.  Hypocrite.

[Thumpalumpacus]

? Trump's controversial quotes on Ukraine need to be in a different thread?  Okay, whatever.  Post moved to "Trump" thread.

Yeah, this thread is about Ukraine, not Trump's opinion of it, unless he feels like logging in here and posting them for discussion. It's second-order.

Love the way you said this to Min.  Hypocrite.

I got fed up with everyone filing off on this well after Min wrote his post, as I didn't think it would spark such an idiotic derail. If it'll make you happy: @Minimalist, keep your Trump shit in that goddamned thread and stop derailing others.

There, now quit your whining and post something intelligent and on-topic.

[Cheerful Charlie]

Doing a little googling.

Population of Russia 144 millions.
Population of Ukraine. 44.5 millions.

GDP of Russia 1.703 Trillion USD
GDP of Germany 4.24 Trillion USD (For comparison)

The question is can Russia take all of Ukraine and hold it against it;s will in subjection? No, Russia cannot afford that, long term. taking east Ukraine and leaving the rest means West Ukraine rooting out all pro-Russian Ukrainians in their borders to prevent them from becoming tomorrows separatists there. It means a sullen Ukraine moving towards the West and eventually inviting NATO into Ukraine. Pro-Russians in West Ukraine, the Baltic states, Poland et al will soon be hunted with dogs to prevent a repeat of Dombass separatism. Can Russia with it's weak economy pay the price? Long term, no.

West Ukraine will become like Northern Ireland. Pro-Russians will leave or be assassinated. This will be messy for decades.

[Minimalist]

This will be messy for decades.

The mantra of dictators throughout history, no?  It was Fuckface's plan for 'Murrika.

[Mad Hatter]

Yeah, this thread is about Ukraine, not Trump's opinion of it, unless he feels like logging in here and posting them for discussion. It's second-order.

Love the way you said this to Min.  Hypocrite.

I got fed up with everyone filing off on this well after Min wrote his post, as I didn't think it would spark such an idiotic derail. If it'll make you happy: @Minimalist, keep your Trump shit in that goddamned thread and stop derailing others.

There, now quit your whining and post something intelligent and on-topic.

Lol. Come on, Thump. You can try. But do you really think Min is going to stop his anti-Trump rants in any thread he's posting? Check out his last post, #497. If anyone's derailing threads, he's the one instigating it. He's obsessed. He can't have a conversation without bringing Trump into it.

MEANWHILE! Ukraine is now under a full scale attack from Russia. Ukraine is reporting 40+ killed so far. Roads are crowded with cars of people trying to flee Kiev. Maybe we should do more militarily. First, Crimea. Now, Ukraine. Where will Putin go next?

[Dom]

Sure looks like the shit has hit the fan.

[adey67]

Love the way you said this to Min.  Hypocrite.

I got fed up with everyone filing off on this well after Min wrote his post, as I didn't think it would spark such an idiotic derail. If it'll make you happy: @Minimalist, keep your Trump shit in that goddamned thread and stop derailing others.

There, now quit your whining and post something intelligent and on-topic.

Lol. Come on, Thump. You can try. But do you really think Min is going to stop his anti-Trump rants in any thread he's posting? Check out his last post, #497. If anyone's derailing threads, he's the one instigating it. He's obsessed. He can't have a conversation without bringing Trump into it.

MEANWHILE! Ukraine is now under a full scale attack from Russia. Ukraine is reporting 40+ killed so far. Roads are crowded with cars of people trying to flee Kiev. Maybe we should do more militarily. First, Crimea. Now, Ukraine. Where will Putin go next?

Putin is a rational psychopath. That may seem like a contradiction in terms but it makes him very very dangerous. The situation is akin to two people swimming in a pool of petrol and trying to strike matches. Putin has already made veiled nuclear threats, thankfully I live close enough to an international airport that I'll likely be vapourised if he goes totally Tonto.