Is veganism the only ethical dietary choice for atheists?

[Cavebear]

Regarding ethics of killing animals, that's not the point IMO. You've taken it upon yourself to end the life of another sentient creature. It doesn't matter how they would have died, or what they would've done otherwise. You ended their life prematurely. By extension, if you purchase and consume meat on a regular basis, you're contributing to that trade, benefiting from the killings.

Ah, the sanctity of life. It must be preserved at all cost and despite of all suffering, whether the cost and suffering is to the one who may die, or to others.

Life is precious, every extra day alive is a win.

I buy none of that. A good life and a good death, that's all that matters in my book. All animals end life to sustain themselves, plants are life also. No one eats rocks or lives off the sun.

Being alive is unethical if you give the highest value to how long other life persists.

That's not quite what I'm getting at. I'm not saying that it's more ethical because they get to live longer. It's all about minimizing the amount of suffering you are personally responsible for. 

But the goal is not to be a perfect saint who is not guilty of ever harming anything at all. That's technically impossible, as you pointed out. But in current year we have the technology and dietary options, especially in a major city like the one I reside in, to be perfectly healthy without eating an ounce of meat or contributing to the mistreatment or killing of animals we know to be highly sentient. I also have the disposable income required to afford to be a healthy vegetarian. So that's what I do. Am I indirectly killing field mice when I buy vegetables? I guess, but surely you see the two situations are not equal and the effort is what counts IMO.

I value mice less than broccoli, but brocolli less than 3 ounces of pork...

[Dom]

Regarding ethics of killing animals, that's not the point IMO. You've taken it upon yourself to end the life of another sentient creature. It doesn't matter how they would have died, or what they would've done otherwise. You ended their life prematurely. By extension, if you purchase and consume meat on a regular basis, you're contributing to that trade, benefiting from the killings.

Ah, the sanctity of life. It must be preserved at all cost and despite of all suffering, whether the cost and suffering is to the one who may die, or to others.

Life is precious, every extra day alive is a win.

I buy none of that. A good life and a good death, that's all that matters in my book. All animals end life to sustain themselves, plants are life also. No one eats rocks or lives off the sun.

Being alive is unethical if you give the highest value to how long other life persists.

That's not quite what I'm getting at. I'm not saying that it's more ethical because they get to live longer. It's all about minimizing the amount of suffering you are personally responsible for. 

But the goal is not to be a perfect saint who is not guilty of ever harming anything at all. That's technically impossible, as you pointed out. But in current year we have the technology and dietary options, especially in a major city like the one I reside in, to be perfectly healthy without eating an ounce of meat or contributing to the mistreatment or killing of animals we know to be highly sentient. I also have the disposable income required to afford to be a healthy vegetarian. So that's what I do. Am I indirectly killing field mice when I buy vegetables? I guess, but surely you see the two situations are not equal and the effort is what counts IMO.

I said a good life and a good death. If there is zero suffering in death, why is it bad?

[Dancefortwo]

TinyDave.....

 Plants don't make choices. They don't have the fundamental biology to make a choice. 

We could be all wrong about this.  It appears that trees communicate with each other through their root system and if they communicate it's possible that they may be making choices.




Killing and eating animals has been necessary for human evolution.  Our skulls and brains changed because we cooked and ate animals. Ancient cave people honored these animals for the sacrifices they made to keep us alive.  It was a bit of a mystery to them. The brutal death of an animal transferred into human life.  This is probably why they spent so much time and effort painting beautiful pictures of these animals on cave walls.  It may have been that they felt tremendous guilt about killing these animals and wanted to honor them.  We don't do honor animals anymore.  We wolf down food without thinking about where it came from.

The cave paintings of Lascaux.....








BTW, the Caves of Lascaux have been closed to all tourists because humans carried bacteria would eat away at the paintings so they did an exact replica of the caves using a 3D scanners and made a life size model with all the animals painted exactly as they are in the real cave.  It's supposedly  amazing to see. The photo above with the people in it is in the copy of the cave. It's right next to the real cave.

[TinyDave]

I said a good life and a good death. If there is zero suffering in death, why is it bad?

I dont think that there is any zero suffering in death. Especially when a healthy animal is culled.

[TinyDave]

TinyDave.....

 Plants don't make choices. They don't have the fundamental biology to make a choice. 

We could be all wrong about this.  It appears that trees communicate with each other through their root system and if they communicate it's possible that they may be making choices.

Yes, this could be taxonomyism(?) on our part. However, trees and plants sending messages to each other via pheromone messages isn't the same as animals sending clear messages that we understand. Would you equate the smell of cut grass as the same as a pig or cow screaming as they were being slaughtered?

We do know, for certain, that the animals that we consume do feel pain, are scared and are sentient. 

Killing and eating animals has been necessary for human evolution.  Our skulls and brains changed because we cooked and ate animals. Ancient cave people honored these animals for the sacrifices they made to keep us alive.  It was a bit of a mystery to them. The brutal death of an animal transferred into human life.  This is probably why they spent so much time and effort painting beautiful pictures of these animals on cave walls.  It may have been that they felt tremendous guilt about killing these animals and wanted to honor them.  We don't do honor animals anymore.  We wolf down food without thinking about where it came from.

Yes, I totally agree. 
I'll put my cards on the table, I don't think we need to eat animals anymore.
We did, for all of the reasons that you have pointed out, but not anymore.

The cave paintings of Lascaux.....








BTW, the Caves of Lascaux have been closed to all tourists because humans carried bacteria would eat away at the paintings so they did an exact replica of the caves using a 3D scanners and made a life size model with all the animals painted exactly as they are in the real cave.  It's supposedly  amazing to see. The photo above with the people in it is in the copy of the cave.

These are beautiful. TY for sharing.

And yes, I think it shows that our ancestors understood on some level that taking a life was a sacred thing. 
Not in a religious sense of sacred but in the sense that something precious had been given up.

[Dom]

I said a good life and a good death. If there is zero suffering in death, why is it bad?

I dont think that there is any zero suffering in death. Especially when a healthy animal is culled.

Our pigs never suffered, not even an inkling of fear, and certainly no pain. Which is a lot better than what the lot of us will most likely face.

[TinyDave]

...Which is a lot better than what the lot of us will most likely face.

I know my nursing home is going to be bad, but do you have extra intel on that?

You've spoken to my sisters haven't you?

[Antonio]

Some of this chatter from a few posters here will be great news for the scientific community . Humans understand the processess of of non humans in terms of of what they feel sense think and what their motives are for day to day living

[Dancefortwo]

 However, trees and plants sending messages to each other via pheromone messages isn't the same as animals.....

It's not through pheromone messages though. Those are different. It's an underground mycorrhiza network that sends messages via a fungal root system. 

 an exchange not only back and forth between the fungus and the plant, but also between neighbouring plants, using fungi as a thoroughfare.

As the fungal threads spread, they can link up to multiple plants, creating webs known as ‘common mycorrhizal networks’. Through these networks, plants can exchange sugars, nutrients, water and more........ From this research, a picture emerges of individuals sharing with those in need, of ‘mother’ trees sending carbon to seedlings, and of dying trees donating nutrients to their neighbours.

Some trees even show favouritism, doling out more resources to closely related plants. Donations of nutrients and water take place across a ‘source-sink’ gradient, whereby a plant that is rich in a particular resource will give its excess to those in need........The networks they form are complex, often encompassing not just multiple plants but multiple species, and depending on the type of fungi involved, different materials can be exchanged.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/myco...-wide-web/

[Inkubus]

Some of this chatter from a few posters here will be great news for the scientific community . Humans understand the processess of of non humans in terms of of what they feel sense think and what their motives are for day to day living

Who said that?

[Cavebear]

Humans are omnivores. Humans are animals. Is it "ethical" for other omnivores (and carnivores) to consume animals?

I once sat at the edge of a pond and watched a snake (ineptly) swallowing a frog. The frog complained the whole way down. Sad croaks and everything. I COULD have saved the frog. but I didn't. I didn' dislike the frog, nor did I love the snake. It was the natural order of the pond.

But that does lead to ethical concerns. What if it been a larger snake tryimg to swallow a kiiten? Feral or mine?... The line gets thinner...

Omnivores eat some meat, by definition. But which and when?

[Dom]

 However, trees and plants sending messages to each other via pheromone messages isn't the same as animals.....

It's not through pheromone messages though. Those are different. It's an underground mycorrhiza network that sends messages via a fungal root system. 

 an exchange not only back and forth between the fungus and the plant, but also between neighbouring plants, using fungi as a thoroughfare.

As the fungal threads spread, they can link up to multiple plants, creating webs known as ‘common mycorrhizal networks’. Through these networks, plants can exchange sugars, nutrients, water and more........ From this research, a picture emerges of individuals sharing with those in need, of ‘mother’ trees sending carbon to seedlings, and of dying trees donating nutrients to their neighbours.

Some trees even show favouritism, doling out more resources to closely related plants. Donations of nutrients and water take place across a ‘source-sink’ gradient, whereby a plant that is rich in a particular resource will give its excess to those in need........The networks they form are complex, often encompassing not just multiple plants but multiple species, and depending on the type of fungi involved, different materials can be exchanged.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/myco...-wide-web/

Mushroom hunters have always taken care to cut the mushroom instead of pulling it out. Not that they knew anything about all this, but it has been common practice long time. I learned from my grandma, who learned it from hers in the 1800s...

[Dom]

...Which is a lot better than what the lot of us will most likely face.

I know my nursing home is going to be bad, but do you have extra intel on that?

You've spoken to my sisters haven't you?

I don't call it "life" when the daily biggest accomplishment is to get out of bed to go potty. 

My nursing home doesn't exist. Wild horses couldn't drag me into one. I am old and have many peers in nursing homes. Not what I call "life".

[TinyDave]

I don't call it "life" when the daily biggest accomplishment is to get out of bed to go potty.

That's interesting. 

Do you have a view on euthanasia?

My nursing home doesn't exist. Wild horses couldn't drag me into one. I am old and have many peers in nursing homes. Not what I call "life".

No, mine doesn't either yet. 

I watched my grandparents and great-grandparents deteriorate in those places, my parents have done their own thing.
Fucking hippies. 

[TinyDave]

 However, trees and plants sending messages to each other via pheromone messages isn't the same as animals.....

It's not through pheromone messages though. Those are different. It's an underground mycorrhiza network that sends messages via a fungal root system. 

 an exchange not only back and forth between the fungus and the plant, but also between neighbouring plants, using fungi as a thoroughfare.

As the fungal threads spread, they can link up to multiple plants, creating webs known as ‘common mycorrhizal networks’. Through these networks, plants can exchange sugars, nutrients, water and more........ From this research, a picture emerges of individuals sharing with those in need, of ‘mother’ trees sending carbon to seedlings, and of dying trees donating nutrients to their neighbours.

Some trees even show favouritism, doling out more resources to closely related plants. Donations of nutrients and water take place across a ‘source-sink’ gradient, whereby a plant that is rich in a particular resource will give its excess to those in need........The networks they form are complex, often encompassing not just multiple plants but multiple species, and depending on the type of fungi involved, different materials can be exchanged.

https://www.sciencefocus.com/nature/myco...-wide-web/

Mushroom hunters have always taken care to cut the mushroom instead of pulling it out. Not that they knew anything about all this, but it has been common practice long time. I learned from my grandma, who learned it from hers in the 1800s...

That reminds me of this:

“ALL THINGS THAT ARE, ARE OURS. BUT WE MUST CARE. FOR IF WE DO NOT CARE, WE DO NOT EXIST. IF WE DO NOT EXIST, THEN THERE IS NOTHING BUT BLIND OBLIVION. AND EVEN OBLIVION MUST END SOMEDAY. LORD, WILL YOU GRANT ME JUST A LITTLE TIME? FOR THE PROPER BALANCE OF THINGS. TO RETURN WHAT WAS GIVEN. FOR THE SAKE OF PRISONERS AND THE FLIGHT OF BIRDS.

Death took a step backwards.

It was impossible to read expression in Azrael's features.

Death glanced sideways at the servants.

LORD, WHAT CAN THE HARVEST HOPE FOR, IF NOT FOR THE CARE OF THE REAPER MAN?”
― Terry Pratchett, Reaper Man

[Dom]

I don't call it "life" when the daily biggest accomplishment is to get out of bed to go potty.

That's interesting. 

Do you have a view on euthanasia?

My nursing home doesn't exist. Wild horses couldn't drag me into one. I am old and have many peers in nursing homes. Not what I call "life".

No, mine doesn't either yet. 

I watched my grandparents and great-grandparents deteriorate in those places, my parents have done their own thing.
Fucking hippies. 

I think your life is yours. For you to decide about. Self euthanasia is way more common than statistically known, elderly do it all the time, it just gets classified as accidental overdose for insurance purposes.

I am an advocate for "death with dignity" laws, we have them in several states now. They are narrow, but it helps.

[TinyDave]

I think your life is yours. For you to decide about. Self euthanasia is way more common than statistically known, elderly do it all the time, it just gets classified as accidental overdose for insurance purposes.

I am an advocate for "death with dignity" laws, we have them in several states now. They are narrow, but it helps.

I couldn't agree more. Several european states have made the legal criteria for who can be considered for euthanasia quite broad such as this landmark case in the netherlands

[Dancefortwo]

I don't call it "life" when the daily biggest accomplishment is to get out of bed to go potty.

That's interesting. 

Do you have a view on euthanasia?

My nursing home doesn't exist. Wild horses couldn't drag me into one. I am old and have many peers in nursing homes. Not what I call "life".

No, mine doesn't either yet. 

I watched my grandparents and great-grandparents deteriorate in those places, my parents have done their own thing.
Fucking hippies. 

Both my parents died in their home, in their own beds and on their own terms.  My crazy sister (trump supporter and religious nut) wanted to put my parents in a home but I wanted them to be surrounded by all their crappy old stuff, my dad's old piano that he loved to play, and their cat.  Their place was a mess but it was their mess and that's where they wanted to be. My mom had hospice care when she was diagnosed with lung cancer after having smoked all of her adult life and died several years before my dad. He died one night in his sleep at the age of 94.   Twisted Sister, who lives in a hyper clean home to the point of being pathological about it, was horrified by their messy house.    It was more cluttery than messy.

A day after my dad died Twisted Sister tried to have my husband arrested for making the funeral arrangements.   He had driven through a blinding blizzard in white out conditions over Mt. Hood to get to my dad's place to make funeral arrangements (I was recovering from the flu) and she didn't like that (she never liked my husband) so she phoned the police to have him arrested for tresspassing.  The police were too busy with the blizzard conditions so they never responded.  Oh, and I noticed SHE didn't try to drive through the damned blizzard but, true to form (because she's a major control freak)  she didn't want anyone else being in charge of the arrangements.   She's a real piece of work.

She lives 40 miles from me, accross the Columbia River in the state of Washington.  Hasn't talked to me in 10 years for which I'm eternally grateful.  To this day I'm super glad I didn't cave in and put my folks in a home.

[Antonio]

I don't call it "life" when the daily biggest accomplishment is to get out of bed to go potty.

That's interesting. 

Do you have a view on euthanasia?

My nursing home doesn't exist. Wild horses couldn't drag me into one. I am old and have many peers in nursing homes. Not what I call "life".

No, mine doesn't either yet. 

I watched my grandparents and great-grandparents deteriorate in those places, my parents have done their own thing.
Fucking hippies. 

Both my parents died in their home, in their own beds and on their own terms.  My crazy sister (trump supporter and religious nut) wanted to put my parents in a home but I wanted them to be surrounded by all their crappy old stuff, my dad's old piano that he loved to play, and their cat.  Their place was a mess but it was their mess and that's where they wanted to be. My mom had hospice care when she was diagnosed with lung cancer after having smoked all of her adult life and died several years before my dad.   He died one night in his sleep at the age of 94.   Twisted Sister, who lives in a hyper clean home to the point of being pathological about it, was horrified by their messy house.    It was more cluttery than messy.

A day after my dad died Twisted Sister tried to have my husband arrested for making the funeral arrangements.   He had driven through a blinding blizzard in white out conditions over Mt. Hood to get to my dad's place to make funeral arrangements (I was recovering from the flu) and she didn't like that (she never liked my husband) so she phoned the police to have him arrested for tresspassing.  The police were too busy with the blizzard conditions so they never responded.  Oh, and I noticed SHE didn't try to drive through the damned blizzard but, true to form (because she's a major control freak)  she didn't want anyone else being in charge of the arrangements.   She's a real piece of work.

She lives 40 miles from me, accross the Columbia River in the state of Washington.  Hasn't talked to me in 10 years for which I'm eternally grateful.  To this day I'm super glad I didn't cave in and put my folks in a home.

nutso siblings are very common

[TinyDave]

Both my parents died in their home, in their own beds and on their own terms.  My crazy sister (trump supporter and religious nut) wanted to put my parents in a home but I wanted them to be surrounded by all their crappy old stuff, my dad's old piano that he loved to play, and their cat.  Their place was a mess but it was their mess and that's where they wanted to be. My mom had hospice care when she was diagnosed with lung cancer after having smoked all of her adult life and died several years before my dad.   He died one night in his sleep at the age of 94.   Twisted Sister, who lives in a hyper clean home to the point of being pathological about it, was horrified by their messy house.    It was more cluttery than messy.

A day after my dad died Twisted Sister tried to have my husband arrested for making the funeral arrangements.   He had driven through a blinding blizzard in white out conditions over Mt. Hood to get to my dad's place to make funeral arrangements (I was recovering from the flu) and she didn't like that (she never liked my husband) so she phoned the police to have him arrested for tresspassing.  The police were too busy with the blizzard conditions so they never responded.  Oh, and I noticed SHE didn't try to drive through the damned blizzard but, true to form (because she's a major control freak)  she didn't want anyone else being in charge of the arrangements.   She's a real piece of work.

She lives 40 miles from me, accross the Columbia River in the state of Washington.  Hasn't talked to me in 10 years for which I'm eternally grateful.  To this day I'm super glad I didn't cave in and put my folks in a home.

I don't really know what to say to this, other than my condolences for you loss and my congratulations for being strong.

[Cavebear]

...Which is a lot better than what the lot of us will most likely face.

I know my nursing home is going to be bad, but do you have extra intel on that?

You've spoken to my sisters haven't you?

I don't call it "life" when the daily biggest accomplishment is to get out of bed to go potty. 

My nursing home doesn't exist. Wild horses couldn't drag me into one. I am old and have many peers in nursing homes. Not what I call "life".

Well, I pee regularly at night, but daytime is still good. I always know when I wake up to a "bad bathroom dream", LOL! But I shop for food and cook it safely, rememberr the names of my cats, and keep the lawn mowed. I pay the bills on time, answer email rationally, and talk to neighbors.

But one day I won't. The neighbors will worry about me. I'll go collect the mail in my underwear and I won't remember how to write a check for the bills. I'll just THINK I have cats. Some kind neighbor will mow my lawn sometimes. I'll heat TV dinners for a few years then just eat cold soup. The good news is that I won't bother anyone on the computer because I won't remember how it works. The bad news is that I will get really bad at that before.

And then, I suppose, I will be in some assisted-living facility eating food I can't taste, imagining I am in a hotel somewhere (like my Dad) and telling all my secrets to some kind nurse who has heard it all before too many times.

So yeah, I'll want some pills before that if I can still remember why and when to take them...

Don't worry, I figure I have about 19 years left. 90 sounds about the time.

[Dom]

I don't think my mind is slipping, but my body is. Normal cognitive slippage is pretty harmless, but I am not cut out to take care of a huge flower garden and big veggie garden anymore. So, I focus on indoor plants and aquariums. Still a little challenge, I like to provide the perfect environment for each individual plant and learn all about it, and I fiddle with aquariums as natural microcosm, a small functioning eco system that pretty much maintains itself. Takes years to get one perfect. It's a good substitute, a challenge and a joy to watch. I miss my fresh veggies though, I may start a garden in pots on the porch and grow tomatoes and cukes and beans and greens and....

We'll see, we humans are flexible and learn how to make do. For most of us, late life doesn't turn out the way we imagined, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable.

[Cavebear]

I don't think my mind is slipping, but my body is. Normal cognitive slippage is pretty harmless, but I am not cut out to take care of a huge flower garden and big veggie garden anymore. So, I focus on indoor plants and aquariums. Still a little challenge, I like to provide the perfect environment for each individual plant and learn all about it, and I fiddle with aquariums as natural microcosm, a small functioning eco system that pretty much maintains itself. Takes years to get one perfect. It's a good substitute, a challenge and a joy to watch. I miss my fresh veggies though, I may start a garden in pots on the porch and grow tomatoes and cukes and beans and greens and....

We'll see, we humans are flexible and learn how to make do. For most of us, late life doesn't turn out the way we imagined, but that doesn't mean it can't be enjoyable.

Liked your comments on flowers, garden, and aquarium.  When I was 20 and in college, I got my first apartment and first "real" job.  The job was Assistant Manager in a department store fish department.  I had built a small plastic aquarium and needed some fish, so I visited there.  The tanks all had dead or dying fish.  I complained to the person there (happened to be the fish manager who was a drunken lazy loser) and he asked if I wanted a job.

Being broke, I said "yes".  I cleaned out all the dead fish, cleaned the tanks, and basically took over.  I only mention that because you said " I fiddle with aquariums as natural microcosm, a small functioning eco system that pretty much maintains itself.  One of the things I did was steal a HUGE brandy snifter from the glassware department and created a self-sustaining environment with plants and guppies.  Then I set up a breeding aquarium where shoppers could see bettas or gouramis mating and the young being raised.  THAT sold a lot of bettas and gouramis.

I understand about gardening getting difficult.  At the same time I started in the fish department, I started gardening on the apartment balcony with 5 gallon pots and grew tomatoes, peppers, and cucumbers.  When I rented my first house, I set up a real garden.  And an 8' octogon in the front lawn with a chickenwire cylinder in the center to dump grass clippings (to feed the plants).  I left after 5 years, but the Google Earth pictures showed it was maintained for almost 10 more years.

Here in my owned house, I did real gardening and flowerbeds.  It IS getting harder to maintain at 71.  I think I need to dig up the remaining perennials and rototill the whole flowerbed (poison ivy, viny weeds) and shrink it a bit to fit the remaining flowers.  But I'm going more native.  Some original perennials are long-lasting and not invasive (Stokes Asters and Sedums) but I'm mostly changing to natives like Black-Eyed-Susans and Coneflowers.

The veggie garden has gone all whack (probably pH imbalance).  I need to get the soil tested.  My heirloom tomatoes didn't produce a single fruit this year.  I DID get a good crop of cherry tomatoes from a pot hanging off the deck.  But that was fresh potting soil (with slow-release organic fertilizer), so that gives me a hint.

Try growing lettuces in trays.  I have had success with that the past couple years. They are "snip and grow again".

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[Free]

If you don't believe in a neverland where we all go to live happily ever after is it ethical to consume animal products?

We are animals. We are omnivores. That means we eat other animals. It not a question of ethics.

Atheism is just a lack of belief in gods. Nothing more. You can be vegan and be an atheist. You can eat a whole cow and be an atheist. They are mutually exclusive.

[mordant]

I don't call it "life" when the daily biggest accomplishment is to get out of bed to go potty.

That's interesting. 

Do you have a view on euthanasia?

My nursing home doesn't exist. Wild horses couldn't drag me into one. I am old and have many peers in nursing homes. Not what I call "life".

No, mine doesn't either yet. 

I watched my grandparents and great-grandparents deteriorate in those places, my parents have done their own thing.
Fucking hippies. 

Both my parents died in their home, in their own beds and on their own terms.  My crazy sister (trump supporter and religious nut) wanted to put my parents in a home but I wanted them to be surrounded by all their crappy old stuff, my dad's old piano that he loved to play, and their cat.  Their place was a mess but it was their mess and that's where they wanted to be. My mom had hospice care when she was diagnosed with lung cancer after having smoked all of her adult life and died several years before my dad.   He died one night in his sleep at the age of 94.   Twisted Sister, who lives in a hyper clean home to the point of being pathological about it, was horrified by their messy house.    It was more cluttery than messy.

A day after my dad died Twisted Sister tried to have my husband arrested for making the funeral arrangements.   He had driven through a blinding blizzard in white out conditions over Mt. Hood to get to my dad's place to make funeral arrangements (I was recovering from the flu) and she didn't like that (she never liked my husband) so she phoned the police to have him arrested for tresspassing.  The police were too busy with the blizzard conditions so they never responded.  Oh, and I noticed SHE didn't try to drive through the damned blizzard but, true to form (because she's a major control freak)  she didn't want anyone else being in charge of the arrangements.   She's a real piece of work.

She lives 40 miles from me, accross the Columbia River in the state of Washington.  Hasn't talked to me in 10 years for which I'm eternally grateful.  To this day I'm super glad I didn't cave in and put my folks in a home.

That's quite a story.

I have a controlling older brother, although less overtly toxic than your sis. He's still an evangelical. Our relationship still exists, but is a pale imitation of what it could be.

I think that controlling people are that way because they need everything their way to feel remotely okay about themselves and the perceived threat landscape around them. They are pathetic creatures that are full of fear and, sometimes, rage. My bro is not so far down the road of 100% ruining his close relationships as your sis, but let's just say his other younger brother speaks to him less than I do, and he's 20 minutes away rather than 1500 miles.