Is veganism the only ethical dietary choice for atheists?

[Mr Greene]

It really amazes me when people imagine livestock being raised in some completely artificial way.

Look at what's going on in the Amazon's rainforest. Clearing vast swathes of rainforest in order to raise livestock is seriously damaging our ability to remove carbon from the atmosphere. That's certainly an aspect of dietary decisions that has an ethical dimension.

We're also doing that for things like Palm Oil and Soya which would suggest that veganism isn't as ethical as it claims.

[Mr Greene]

No, that is a ridiculous premise.
That sounds like a quote from animal farm.

Then what applies to the cat also applies to us.

Does it?
I dont understand your reasoning. 
Please explain your statement.

We are all animals, we have much the same requirements, thus if we allow that one may do 'X' we must grant that same allowance to the other. To do otherwise is to stand for inequality.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It really amazes me when people imagine livestock being raised in some completely artificial way.

Look at what's going on in the Amazon's rainforest. Clearing vast swathes of rainforest in order to raise livestock is seriously damaging our ability to remove carbon from the atmosphere. That's certainly an aspect of dietary decisions that has an ethical dimension.

We're also doing that for things like Palm Oil and Soya which would suggest that veganism isn't as ethical as it claims.

Indeed. The essence of any solution to these ethical issues essentially boils down to population control, I believe.

[Dom]

Look at what's going on in the Amazon's rainforest. Clearing vast swathes of rainforest in order to raise livestock is seriously damaging our ability to remove carbon from the atmosphere. That's certainly an aspect of dietary decisions that has an ethical dimension.

We're also doing that for things like Palm Oil and Soya which would suggest that veganism isn't as ethical as it claims.

Indeed. The essence of any solution to these ethical issues essentially boils down to population control, I believe.

Yes, that!!!! That and education. But definitely population control.

[TinyDave]

We are all animals,

Yes.

we have much the same requirements,

Agreed.

thus if we allow that one may do 'X' we must grant that same allowance to the other.

Absolutely not. 
Humans do not rape, murder or eat their own offspring. 
The reason for this is, reason. 
Humans have the capability of empathy and have the intellectual capacity to make decisions based on things other than mere impulse.

To do otherwise is to stand for inequality.

Nonsense. 
Equality is a human concept, this being the case, applying a human concept to the behaviour of non human animals is absurd.
What we can, and should do, is apply our sense of equality to all living beings.

[Dom]

We are all animals,

Yes.

we have much the same requirements,

Agreed.

thus if we allow that one may do 'X' we must grant that same allowance to the other.

Absolutely not. 
Humans do not rape, murder or eat their own offspring. 
The reason for this is, reason. 
Humans have the capability of empathy and have the intellectual capacity to make decisions based on things other than mere impulse.

To do otherwise is to stand for inequality.

Nonsense. 
Equality is a human concept, this being the case, applying a human concept to the behaviour of non human animals is absurd.
What we can, and should do, is apply our sense of equality to all living beings.

We are omnivores by nature. Changing that may well result in other changes in our evolutionary nature, and maybe, in my mind probably, not for the better.

Did you know that the actual "super food" is not a plant but beef liver? The "pyramid" culture of nutrition has been wrong for so long and on so many things - from urging people to eating margarine to urging them to eat mostly glucose, it has not had a good effect on our overall health - at all.

I do not believe that we have enough knowledge (yet) to fundamentally change our diet.

What we do have, is enough knowledge about animals to provide them with a good life and a good death.

[Dānu]

We all die eventually, human or animal. The only question is whether that life is easy or hard, and the passing painful or pain-free.

I suppose the solution is to eat insects, but I don't think that I could adapt to such a diet.

[GenesisNemesis]

We all die eventually, human or animal.  The only question is whether that life is easy or hard, and the passing painful or pain-free.

I suppose the solution is to eat insects, but I don't think that I could adapt to such a diet.

I mean, I would eat cricket burgers. Gimme.

[Dom]

We all die eventually, human or animal.  The only question is whether that life is easy or hard, and the passing painful or pain-free.

I suppose the solution is to eat insects, but I don't think that I could adapt to such a diet.

I mean, I would eat cricket burgers. Gimme.

The only insects I have ever eaten are chocolate covered ants. You could not even tell there were ants in there.

Lots of cultures eat grubs and beetles and stuff. I guess if they were ground up and mixed with our normal foods, they could pass.

I don't know any of the nutritional details of that though.

[SYZ]

Yes, but they are better at getting us to do what they want, including opening tins.

So an alien arrives on planet earth from Venus, and sees a human being emptying
the shit out of the cat's litter box.  And... assumes that the human must be the cat's
servant to be doing that odious task.    

[SYZ]

And as another member has said; human beings are omnivores, eating both plant and
animal matter.  Further, in the natural world many other animals are defined as such;
bears, squirrels, dingoes, mice and rats, pigs, crows, lizards and turtles, and chimpanzees.

I don't understand where you are going with this?

Well, you suggested it was possibly unethical for us humans to eat animals.
I was merely indicating many of the other animals doing the same thing.
Including—given the chance—of eating us.   It's nothing to do with ethics.

(According to National Geographic Magazine 12 June 2016, more than 600
people had been killed and eaten by lions in Africa since 1990.)

[Alan V]

I tried becoming a vegetarian again about 15 years ago. It pushed my triglyceride level too high, so I gave up on it.

Now I eat a few vegetarian dishes every week to cut down on meat, and typically only eat chicken otherwise.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It really amazes me when people imagine livestock being raised in some completely artificial way.

Look at what's going on in the Amazon's rainforest. Clearing vast swathes of rainforest in order to raise livestock is seriously damaging our ability to remove carbon from the atmosphere. That's certainly an aspect of dietary decisions that has an ethical dimension.

We're also doing that for things like Palm Oil and Soya which would suggest that veganism isn't as ethical as it claims.

To the wildlife whose living space got destroyed by a soybean farm, it doesn't matter that that farm's products are being consumed by vegans rather than by the cows we'll eventually eat.

It's still habitat that is lost to them. And any biologist will tell us that the fracturing of habitat into parcels, and the elimination of tracts of habitat, hastens extinction for most creatures. Granted that feeding livestock requires more acreage than directly feeding humans the vegetables that could be grown, human farming is still pretty destructive.

[Dancefortwo]

I tried becoming a vegetarian again about 15 years ago.  It pushed my triglyceride level too high, so I gave up on it.  

Now I eat a few vegetarian dishes every week to cut down on meat, and typically only eat chicken otherwise.

That's kiinda what I do.  I don't eat a whole lot of meat but when I do it's usually chicken.  Even so I'm aware that most chickens don't live pleasant lives.   I wish it were not so.  It's a sad reality.  I try to buy free range chickens when I can.

[Dancefortwo]

 Humans do not rape, murder or eat their own offspring.

I don't know about the cannibalism part but humans have been known to rape and murder their own offspring.   Sad but true.  Muslim men have killed their own daughters because they dishonered the family.  Honor killing.  It's a thing in some parts of the Middle East.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I tried becoming a vegetarian again about 15 years ago.  It pushed my triglyceride level too high, so I gave up on it.  

Now I eat a few vegetarian dishes every week to cut down on meat, and typically only eat chicken otherwise.

That's kiinda what I do.  I don't eat a whole lot of meat but when I do it's usually chicken.  Even so I'm aware that most chickens don't live pleasant lives.   I wish it were not so.  It's a sad reality.  I try to buy free range chickens when I can.

Over the last fifteen years or so I've gone from beef twice a week to beef twice a month.

[Thumpalumpacus]

 Humans do not rape, murder or eat their own offspring.

I don't know about the cannibalism part but humans have been known to rape and murder their own offspring.   Sad but true.  Muslim men have killed their own daughters because they dishonered the family.  Honor killing.  It's a thing in some parts of the Middle East.

Not just that, but the claim that humans don't rape their own children seems to be ignoring a swathe of child-abuse victims and what they've reported. Not that it's common, but it's certainly there, the above-quoted claim notwithstanding.

[SYZ]

...I don't eat a whole lot of meat but when I do it's usually chicken.  Even so I'm aware that most chickens don't live pleasant lives.   I wish it were not so.  It's a sad reality.  I try to buy free range chickens when I can.

This is one of the free range farms in Gippsland that we buy our eggs from:



This is one of their Maremma "guard" dogs:



No synthetic food for these girls:

[Dom]

...I don't eat a whole lot of meat but when I do it's usually chicken.  Even so I'm aware that most chickens don't live pleasant lives.   I wish it were not so.  It's a sad reality.  I try to buy free range chickens when I can.

This is one of the free range farms in Gippsland that we buy our eggs from:



This is one of their Maremma "guard" dogs:



No synthetic food for these girls:

Yep, my eggs come from a farm just like it, including the guard dogs who protect the chickens from predators, both on the ground and air borne. Those eggs are great, solid shell, orange yolk, firm white. Very good, and happy chickens, too.

[TinyDave]

 Humans do not rape, murder or eat their own offspring.

I don't know about the cannibalism part but humans have been known to rape and murder their own offspring.   Sad but true.  Muslim men have killed their own daughters because they dishonered the family.  Honor killing.  It's a thing in some parts of the Middle East.

Not just that, but the claim that humans don't rape their own children seems to be ignoring a swathe of child-abuse victims and what they've reported. Not that it's common, but it's certainly there, the above-quoted claim notwithstanding.

My mistake. You're right, humans rarely abuse and kill their offspring. But it does happen. The humans that do that are the outliers. 
This being the case, I will re state my claim.
It is very rare for humans to behave in the way that animals frequently do by raping, killing and eating their offspring.

[TinyDave]

And as another member has said; human beings are omnivores, eating both plant and
animal matter.  Further, in the natural world many other animals are defined as such;
bears, squirrels, dingoes, mice and rats, pigs, crows, lizards and turtles, and chimpanzees.

I don't understand where you are going with this?

Well, you suggested it was possibly unethical for us humans to eat animals.
I was merely indicating many of the other animals doing the same thing.
Including—given the chance—of eating us.   It's nothing to do with ethics.

(According to National Geographic Magazine 12 June 2016, more than 600
people had been killed and eaten by lions in Africa since 1990.)

I don't agree with that. This is because we can't judge animal's ethics by own own standard. 
Animals don't have an ethical code, or at least one that we don't understand. 
We do. 
So what if lions eat antelopes. 
Does this mean that everything that we can kill and eat is fair game to us?

[Dancefortwo]

I don't know about the cannibalism part but humans have been known to rape and murder their own offspring.   Sad but true.  Muslim men have killed their own daughters because they dishonered the family.  Honor killing.  It's a thing in some parts of the Middle East.

Not just that, but the claim that humans don't rape their own children seems to be ignoring a swathe of child-abuse victims and what they've reported. Not that it's common, but it's certainly there, the above-quoted claim notwithstanding.

My mistake. You're right, humans rarely abuse and kill their offspring. But it does happen. The humans that do that are the outliers. 
This being the case, I will re state my claim.
It is very rare for humans to behave in the way that animals frequently do by raping, killing and eating their offspring.

....humans rarely abuse and kill their offspring. But it does happen. 

It sure does.  Abuse of women and children is rampant in many parts of the world.  Sex trade is world wide.   Morals and ethnics change from community to community and differ from century to century.  A lot of human ethics are flexable when necessary.  What was ethical 2000 years ago would be considered criminal in most places today.  In the West we don't stone adulterous women to death but they do in the Middle East.  During Shakespeare's time bear bating was a popular sport until the English Civil War kinda got rid of it..... perhaps they were too busy killing each other and forgot about bears.

Also, humans have killed each other by the multi-millions in wars.    Humans like to think we are moral but it's pretty sketch stuff.  We're animals with apposing thumbs and big brains that have learned out to efficiently kill each other to survive.

That said, I wish animals weren't industrialized like a widget in a factory.  It's horrible. The system needs to be overhauled.  But humans are omnivors.  We need meat from time to time.

[SYZ]

I don't understand where you are going with this?

Well, you suggested it was possibly unethical for us humans to eat animals.
I was merely indicating many of the other animals doing the same thing.
Including—given the chance—of eating us.   It's nothing to do with ethics.

(According to National Geographic Magazine 12 June 2016, more than 600
people had been killed and eaten by lions in Africa since 1990.)

I don't agree with that. This is because we can't judge animal's ethics by own own standard. 
Animals don't have an ethical code, or at least one that we don't understand. 
We do. 
So what if lions eat antelopes. 
Does this mean that everything that we can kill and eat is fair game to us?

I'm sorry, but this response of yours seems to have no relevance to my
position.  Ethics per se  has nothing to do with an animal being an
omnivore.  That's a taxonomic definition,  rather than any abstract human
notion—which is what ethics are.

(In fact it's quite patronising of you to tell me that "animals don't have ethics"
as though I didn't know that.)

You also seem unaware that strictly speaking, H. sapiens  is an apex animal.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It is very rare for humans to behave in the way that animals frequently do by raping, killing and eating their offspring.

I think that's pretty rare in much of the animal kingdom, at least in Mammalia.

[SYZ]

It is very rare for humans to behave in the way that animals frequently do by raping, killing and eating their offspring.

I think that's pretty rare in much of the animal kingdom, at least in Mammalia.

I'd agree. I think Dave needs to supply a couple of citations.