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Deathbed Dilemmas
#26

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-16-2021, 09:37 PM)JJonas93 Wrote: I won't spend any energy figuring out how to fake my suicide, ever. I will mobilize my efforts around living at the best level of function that I can.
Maybe if I am 100 and have several diseases and conditions and pain, I will submit to hospice.  Otherwise probably not.

How old one is plays a big role in how one feels about these things. The dislike of death shrinks as you get old. And that's a good thing.
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#27

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-16-2021, 02:35 AM)skyking Wrote: I devised a system that seems pretty foolproof. The implementation will take some polishing but it goes like this...

You (we) should never post public details of the mechanics of suicide.  This is a major no-no
according to authoritative medical reports here in Australia, as it can be seen as enablement
and/or the authority or means to do something for someone with possible suicidal ideation.       Thumbsdown
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#28

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-17-2021, 10:08 AM)SYZ Wrote:
(10-16-2021, 02:35 AM)skyking Wrote: I devised a system that seems pretty foolproof. The implementation will take some polishing but it goes like this...

You (we) should never post public details of the mechanics of suicide.  This is a major no-no
according to authoritative medical reports here in Australia, as it can be seen as enablement
and/or the authority or means to do something for someone with possible suicidal ideation.       Thumbsdown

It is also a last resort for the thousands of elderly who are suffering and are forced to quietly try to dig up information on how to do this without shocking the shit out of everyone by blowing their brains out and making others clean it up.

Our religious society can't discuss this, it's a taboo, any life, from conception to lingering suffering to "natural death" (heavily sedated in a hospital bed paying tons of money to the health professions for dampening the pain down a bit) is too holy to be under the control of the person themselves.

This needs to be discussed and resolved, it hurts the emotional teens to be unable to talk about it without crazy consequences. Everyone who has the thought is pushed into a lonely corner, regardless of age. Do you actually think that helps anyone? IMO being secretive and alone fortifies the feeling of being an outcast in juveniles, and makes their suicide more likely.  As far as the elderly go, they are refused bodily autonomy. No different from making women bear and raise unwanted, unloved and burdensome relics from their rape. 

Juveniles need to be able to talk about it and diffuse their emotional distress, and the elderly deserve to depart with dignity at the time of their choice.

It needs to be talked about, the taboo needs to be lifted. It's a rational decision for some, and an emotion ridden one for others, and both need to be able to clear their minds. You can't do that when you are pushed into secrecy and loneliness.  

Lift the taboo! Open the discussions and allow people to clear their minds and have a rational approach. If not, emotional juveniles will continue to be pushed into an even lonelier position, and elderly will suffer unnecessarily against their will.
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#29

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-17-2021, 10:08 AM)SYZ Wrote:
(10-16-2021, 02:35 AM)skyking Wrote: I devised a system that seems pretty foolproof. The implementation will take some polishing but it goes like this...

You (we) should never post public details of the mechanics of suicide.  This is a major no-no
according to authoritative medical reports here in Australia, as it can be seen as enablement
and/or the authority or means to do something for someone with possible suicidal ideation.       Thumbsdown

when they draw the line on the internet for what I can and cannot write about, I'll worry about that then. Until then .......
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#30

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-16-2021, 09:30 PM)JJonas93 Wrote:
(10-16-2021, 02:36 PM)adey67 Wrote:
(10-15-2021, 08:36 PM)Dom Wrote: Well, I'll restore the equilibrium. I am definitely going for an easy death, and I will avoid being near healthcare professionals if at all possible. Lingering sounds hellish to me, a quick and clean exit sounds good to me.

Seen it many many times in my 30+ year career and I wouldn't recommend it, it's much much better to go quickly. To those who say otherwise I'd urge them to watch a few hospice/palliative care documentaries before wishing that on themselves there are some good ones on YouTube including a fairly graphic fly on the wall one about Grace hospital in Canada.

I do not think I need to watch any videos. My brother is living this right now.  I am the only one out of state. I visited him for six hours on one day, and four hours the next two days. The family is divided on this.   A one hour visit does not give an accurate idea of his range of cognition. There is only a 1 in 1000 he will come out of it.  He tries to communicate. He smiles at times.  At times he appears to what to listen to tv or music. Sometimes he  is agitated and other times sedated.  He can answer yes or no questions  but not always in a way that makes sense.  He dreams at night.

 I would want this existence over nothingness. I believe that it is also my brother's wish.  People have their own preferences on this. I find healthcare professionals in the ICU are biased, and I told them so.

Sorry to hear about your brother it must be tough. Your wishes are your wishes far be it from me or anyone else to tell you how to feel but I'm very curious, why do you fear nothingness? Death in all probability is total oblivion identical to the eternity you were nonexistent before your conception and birth.I'd wager you don't give the pre-natal abyss a seconds thought and the postmortem one will be identical, it's a thought I find strangely comforting it's the idea of eternal existance I find really terrifying.
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#31

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-17-2021, 03:15 PM)adey67 Wrote: Sorry to hear about your brother it must be tough. Your wishes are your wishes far be it from me or anyone else to tell you how to feel but I'm very curious, why do you fear nothingness? Death in all probability is total oblivion identical to the eternity you were nonexistent before your conception and birth. I'd wager you don't give the pre-natal abyss a seconds thought and the postmortem one will be identical, it's a thought I find strangely comforting it's the idea of eternal existence I find really terrifying.

I don't fear nothingness; once achieved it is as easy as you say and it is inevitable for all of us.  I fear an unreasonable share of somethingness.  If I had totally locked-in syndrome, I would definitely want that other nothingness.  To have full cognitive capabilities has great worth alone. I enjoy my own company.  And If I had the cognitive abilities of a toddler, why would there be a thought of a DNR or hospice?  We do not encourage opportunist passing of developmental delayed folks. Limited future potential is no reason to hasten death.

My brother is 64 years old.  Both my parents lived to 88. He did not use drugs, drink, or smoke. He is not obese.  He deserves his 1 in 1000 shot AND he deserves a period of diminished function prior to nothingness if that is all that is available to him.
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#32

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-17-2021, 04:31 PM)JJonas93 Wrote:
(10-17-2021, 03:15 PM)adey67 Wrote: Sorry to hear about your brother it must be tough. Your wishes are your wishes far be it from me or anyone else to tell you how to feel but I'm very curious, why do you fear nothingness? Death in all probability is total oblivion identical to the eternity you were nonexistent before your conception and birth. I'd wager you don't give the pre-natal abyss a seconds thought and the postmortem one will be identical, it's a thought I find strangely comforting it's the idea of eternal existence I find really terrifying.

I don't fear nothingness; once achieved it is as easy as you say and it is inevitable for all of us.  I fear an unreasonable share of somethingness.  If I had totally locked-in syndrome, I would definitely want that other nothingness.  To have full cognitive capabilities has great worth alone. I enjoy my own company.  And If I had the cognitive abilities of a toddler, why would there be a thought of a DNR or hospice?  We do not encourage opportunist passing of developmental delayed folks. Limited future potential is no reason to hasten death.

My brother is 64 years old.  Both my parents lived to 88. He did not use drugs, drink, or smoke. He is not obese.  He deserves his 1 in 1000 shot AND he deserves a period of diminished function prior to nothingness if that is all that is available to him.

And the moral of the story is self determination. Everyone needs to make sure to have instructions for such situations in place, just in case.
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#33

Deathbed Dilemmas
Yes. The vast majority leave this unaddressed, possibly until they are unable to choose.
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#34

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-17-2021, 12:06 PM)Dom Wrote:
(10-17-2021, 10:08 AM)SYZ Wrote: You (we) should never post public details of the mechanics of suicide.  This is a major no-no
according to authoritative medical reports here in Australia, as it can be seen as enablement
and/or the authority or means to do something for someone with possible suicidal ideation.

It is also a last resort for the thousands of elderly who are suffering and are forced to quietly try to dig up information on how to do this without shocking the shit out of everyone by blowing their brains out and making others clean it up...

Unfortunately, you're missing the point of my comment entirely Dom.  The point is that people—even
medicos—should NEVER discuss the manner, devices, or "mechanics" of committing suicide.  Listening
to unqualified people devise so-called "perfect" or "painless" end of life mechanisms is simply wrong.    
End of story.

Everymind Australia.

—"Limit discussion about methods of harm.  Talking in graphic detail about the
method of suicide can create images that are upsetting and can increase the
risk of copying behaviour by people who are at risk of suicide.


Details about the method or location of a suicide death should be avoided,
especially in a group or as part of public conversations.  This also means
working with people who might be telling their personal story to consider
what details may be provided about a suicide attempt or death."

Dom Wrote:It is also a last resort for the thousands of elderly who are suffering and are forced to quietly try to dig up information on how to do this without shocking the shit out of everyone by blowing their brains out and making others clean it up.

Nope.  Discussing methods of suicide is not "a last resort" of the elderly.  That's a task for duly
accredited clinical counsellors—not some anonymous, probably unqualified person on the internet.

Dom Wrote:Juveniles need to be able to talk about it and diffuse their emotional distress, and the elderly deserve to depart with dignity at the time of their choice.

Of course I agree with this—as you've phrased it in this instance.  But that also precludes publicly
suggesting ways to end one's life. Mature-aged end-of-life and spontaneous teenage suicide are two
totally different scenarios anyway.

And I'm not suggesting in any way that debates about suicide should be shut down in toto.
But which you've mistakenly assumed I am.     Shake
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#35

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-17-2021, 12:44 PM)skyking Wrote:
(10-17-2021, 10:08 AM)SYZ Wrote: You (we) should never post public details of the mechanics of suicide.  This is a major no-no
according to authoritative medical reports here in Australia, as it can be seen as enablement
and/or the authority or means to do something for someone with possible suicidal ideation.  

when they draw the line on the internet for what I can and cannot write about, I'll worry about that then. Until then .......

It's simply not a matter of what "they" do or don't do. Are you going to maybe
write next about the pros and cons of sexual abuse?  The anonymity of the WWW
definitely doesn't give you any "right" to publicly post your opinions regardless of
their content—particularly in the matter of suicide.

BTW, who exactly are "they"?  Clinical professionals, or just some random bloke
on the internet?

(I've posted a link supporting my opinion;  can you do the same?)
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#36

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 07:45 AM)SYZ Wrote:
(10-17-2021, 12:44 PM)skyking Wrote:
(10-17-2021, 10:08 AM)SYZ Wrote: You (we) should never post public details of the mechanics of suicide.  This is a major no-no
according to authoritative medical reports here in Australia, as it can be seen as enablement
and/or the authority or means to do something for someone with possible suicidal ideation.  

when they draw the line on the internet for what I can and cannot write about, I'll worry about that then. Until then .......

It's simply not a matter of what "they" do or don't do. Are you going to maybe
write next about the pros and cons of sexual abuse?  The anonymity of the WWW
definitely doesn't give you any "right" to publicly post your opinions regardless of
their content—particularly in the matter of suicide.

BTW, who exactly are "they"?  Clinical professionals, or just some random bloke
on the internet?

(I've posted a link supporting my opinion;  can you do the same?)

Clinical professionals, as a rule, are taught to prevent suicide. Period. People contemplating such (and it is a rational thing to think about) are pulled out of their environment and bombarded with probing and prodding and having their feelings discounted.

Not to mention that it is illegal and in many places you are placed in a facility. None of this helps. It allows those who just want to vent, or need attention, to act out and receive what they want. People actually contemplating it in a rational way are driven into more and more isolation. 

It's not called "help for those who contemplate suicide", it's called "suicide prevention". Anyone who is serious in their thoughts will avoid it like the plague.
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#37

Deathbed Dilemmas
Helping a Loved One in Times of Ambiguity.

It is quite a tragedy when a loved one misinterprets the wishes in either direction. 


ICU social workers seem quick to point out that in the abstract fighting until the end seems more tolerable than the realities.  It can work out in reverse as well.  Being a very frugal man, my father did not want to "waste" money on treatment with little chance of positive outcome.  He imagined being unconscious in a coma.  He signed a DNR when in is early 70s.  At 88 he had an infection and was dealing with ongoing swallowing issues. He was quite conscious at times and became furious upon discussions of stopping treatment. A downturn in progress lead to a recommendation of hospice.  In this case his earlier wish was honored but his obvious later wish not given enough weight.   

Some people want to fight right until the end.  If that's not something you would do, just do not project your sensibilities on others self-righteously.
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#38

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 07:45 AM)SYZ Wrote:
(10-17-2021, 12:44 PM)skyking Wrote:
(10-17-2021, 10:08 AM)SYZ Wrote: You (we) should never post public details of the mechanics of suicide.  This is a major no-no
according to authoritative medical reports here in Australia, as it can be seen as enablement
and/or the authority or means to do something for someone with possible suicidal ideation.  

when they draw the line on the internet for what I can and cannot write about, I'll worry about that then. Until then .......

It's simply not a matter of what "they" do or don't do. Are you going to maybe
write next about the pros and cons of sexual abuse?  The anonymity of the WWW
definitely doesn't give you any "right" to publicly post your opinions regardless of
their content—particularly in the matter of suicide.

BTW, who exactly are "they"?  Clinical professionals, or just some random bloke
on the internet?

(I've posted a link supporting my opinion;  can you do the same?)

Dom said it well. Thousands of people make their own exits across the world, and many of them are NOT suffering from a temporary mental condition. Many of those people are indeed depressed, because a painful terminal condition is pretty damn depressing. Your sexual abuse strawman is beyond offensive and you can piss right off about that. Don't do that shit here ever again mate.
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#39

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 02:28 PM)JJonas93 Wrote:
(10-18-2021, 02:00 AM)skyking Wrote: Yes. The vast majority leave this unaddressed, possibly until they are unable to choose.

It is quite a tragedy when loved one misinterpret  wishes in either direction. 

 ICU social worker is quick to point out that in the abstract fighting until the end seems more tolerable than the realities.  It can work out in reverse as well.  Being a very frugal man, my father did not want to "waste" money on treatment with little chance of positive outcome.  He imagined being unconscious in a coma.  He signed a DNR when in is early  70s.  At 88 he had an infection and was dealing with ongoing swallowing issues. He was quite conscious at times and became furious upon discussions about stopping treatment. A downturn in progress lead to a recommendation of hospice.  In this case his earlier wish was honored but his obvious later wish not given any weight.   

Some people want to fight right until the end.  If that's not something you would do, just do not project your sensibilities on others self-righteously.

There is nothing self righteous on making a decision in a timely manner. Calm yourself.
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#40

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 11:23 AM)Dom Wrote:  Clinical professionals, as a rule, are taught to prevent suicide. Period. 
This is not true.  Some agencies have this kind of policy AND ETHICAL/LEGAL considerations can seem to point to this.  Frontline crisis phone workers often do not have advanced training and are given black or white directives.  Clinicians at the PsyD /PhD level have courses of study quite a bit more nuanced than you may realize.

Quote:People contemplating such (and it is a rational thing to think about) are pulled out of their environment and bombarded with probing and prodding and having their feelings discounted.
This is not the standard of care. Socratic questioning that confronts distortions in thinking is a reasonable approach. Feelings are reflected and accepted nonjudgmentally.

Quote:Not to mention that it is illegal and in many places you are placed in a facility. None of this helps. It allows those who just want to vent, or need attention, to act out and receive what they want. People actually contemplating it in a rational way are driven into more and more isolation. 
  Suicidal thought can be discussed in therapy with no nuclear option being invoked. It's only when there is an imminent threat to safety that hospitalization is considered.  Of course sometimes a clinician is scared and errs on the side of safety.

Quote:It's not called "help for those who contemplate suicide", it's called "suicide prevention". Anyone who is serious in their thoughts will avoid it like the plague.
People with clear quality of life issues and levels  of pain are not prevented from going into hospice.
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#41

Deathbed Dilemmas
Corrected Misunderstanding. 
                                              Skyking See edited post.
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#42

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-17-2021, 04:31 PM)JJonas93 Wrote:
(10-17-2021, 03:15 PM)adey67 Wrote: Sorry to hear about your brother it must be tough. Your wishes are your wishes far be it from me or anyone else to tell you how to feel but I'm very curious, why do you fear nothingness? Death in all probability is total oblivion identical to the eternity you were nonexistent before your conception and birth. I'd wager you don't give the pre-natal abyss a seconds thought and the postmortem one will be identical, it's a thought I find strangely comforting it's the idea of eternal existence I find really terrifying.

I don't fear nothingness; once achieved it is as easy as you say and it is inevitable for all of us.  I fear an unreasonable share of somethingness.  If I had totally locked-in syndrome, I would definitely want that other nothingness.  To have full cognitive capabilities has great worth alone. I enjoy my own company.  And If I had the cognitive abilities of a toddler, why would there be a thought of a DNR or hospice?  We do not encourage opportunist passing of developmental delayed folks. Limited future potential is no reason to hasten death.

My brother is 64 years old.  Both my parents lived to 88. He did not use drugs, drink, or smoke. He is not obese.  He deserves his 1 in 1000 shot AND he deserves a period of diminished function prior to nothingness if that is all that is available to him.

I sincerely hope your brother improves he's lucky to have such a caring brother as you. I would like to gently point out that nowhere in our conversation do I recall advocating for encouragement of opportunistic passing or DNR orders, I just wanted to understand where you are coming from which you have kindly explained with much eloquence.
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#43

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 02:44 PM)JJonas93 Wrote:
(10-18-2021, 11:23 AM)Dom Wrote:  Clinical professionals, as a rule, are taught to prevent suicide. Period. 
This is not true.  Some agencies have this kind of policy AND ETHICAL/LEGAL considerations can seem to point to this.  Frontline crisis phone workers often do not have advanced training and are given black or white directives.  Clinicians at the PsyD /PhD level have courses of study quite a bit more nuanced than you may realize.

Quote:People contemplating such (and it is a rational thing to think about) are pulled out of their environment and bombarded with probing and prodding and having their feelings discounted.
This is not the standard of care. Socratic questioning that confronts cognitive distortions in thinking is a reasonable approach. Feelings are reflected and accepted nonjudgmentally.

Quote:Not to mention that it is illegal and in many places you are placed in a facility. None of this helps. It allows those who just want to vent, or need attention, to act out and receive what they want. People actually contemplating it in a rational way are driven into more and more isolation. 
  Suicidal thought can be discussed in therapy with no nuclear option being invoked. It's only when their is an imminent threat to safety that hospitalization is considered.  Of course sometimes a clinician is scared and errs on the side of safety.

Quote:It's not called "help for those who contemplate suicide", it's called "suicide prevention". Anyone who is serious in their thoughts will avoid it like the plague.
People with clear quality of life issues and levels  of pain are not prevented from going into hospice.

I couldn't go into hospice. I'd have to get terminally ill first.

People who are serious about taking the exit don't want a psychiatrist or psychologist or a suicide preventer, they want advice on how to make it easier on those who remain behind, generally. 

The statistics about suicide are totally off kilter, since the thousands of elderly who do so every year are not captured in this, they either 'die of natural causes" or "accidentally overdose" on their meds. If that was not so, their loved ones would not get the insurance pay-out.

You show me a counselor of any prescription who will support a person in their plans to take the exit. If there are any, they operate in the dark. 

Suicide is not allowed, in many places it is a crime, and people are made to suffer against their will all the time. It's a disgrace, you live a long life and then your wishes are ignored and you are forced to suffer until you die of it. That's torture.
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#44

Deathbed Dilemmas
I would echo my friend Adey's sentiments. The only tragedy I seek to prevent is arriving at these end times with no clear understanding and plan. If you want every measure to extend life, make it clear. If there is some middle ground, make it clear in writing and to all. My personal fear would be being trapped in a noncommunicative state and aware but unable to convey my wishes.
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#45

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 02:55 PM)skyking Wrote: I would echo my friend Adey's sentiments. The only tragedy I seek to prevent  is arriving at these end times with no clear understanding and plan. If you want every measure to extend life, make it clear. If there is some middle ground, make it clear in writing and to all. My personal fear would be being trapped in a noncommunicative state and aware but unable to convey my wishes.

Yes, that's fair.   I am just trying to be clear that sending someone to nothingness when they would rather remain in a noncommunicative state is just as tragic.  

For a time the ICU in my brother's case kept pretending that they had to address false hope of the family , and appeared ill-prepared to address or acknowledge that I accept my brother exactly how he is and want him to live on, and that is his wish or the best estimate that can be made.
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#46

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 02:52 PM)Dom Wrote:
(10-18-2021, 02:44 PM)JJonas93 Wrote:
(10-18-2021, 11:23 AM)Dom Wrote:  Clinical professionals, as a rule, are taught to prevent suicide. Period. 
This is not true.  Some agencies have this kind of policy AND ETHICAL/LEGAL considerations can seem to point to this.  Frontline crisis phone workers often do not have advanced training and are given black or white directives.  Clinicians at the PsyD /PhD level have courses of study quite a bit more nuanced than you may realize.

Quote:People contemplating such (and it is a rational thing to think about) are pulled out of their environment and bombarded with probing and prodding and having their feelings discounted.
This is not the standard of care. Socratic questioning that confronts cognitive distortions in thinking is a reasonable approach. Feelings are reflected and accepted nonjudgmentally.

Quote:Not to mention that it is illegal and in many places you are placed in a facility. None of this helps. It allows those who just want to vent, or need attention, to act out and receive what they want. People actually contemplating it in a rational way are driven into more and more isolation. 
  Suicidal thought can be discussed in therapy with no nuclear option being invoked. It's only when their is an imminent threat to safety that hospitalization is considered.  Of course sometimes a clinician is scared and errs on the side of safety.

Quote:It's not called "help for those who contemplate suicide", it's called "suicide prevention". Anyone who is serious in their thoughts will avoid it like the plague.
People with clear quality of life issues and levels  of pain are not prevented from going into hospice.

I couldn't go into hospice. I'd have to get terminally ill first.

People who are serious about taking the exit don't want a psychiatrist or psychologist or a suicide preventer, they want advice on how to make it easier on those who remain behind, generally. 

The statistics about suicide are totally off kilter, since the thousands of elderly who do so every year are not captured in this, they either 'die of natural causes" or "accidentally overdose" on their meds. If that was not so, their loved ones would not get the insurance pay-out.

You show me a counselor of any prescription who will support a person in their plans to take the exit. If there are any, they operate in the dark. 

Suicide is not allowed, in many places it is a crime, and people are made to suffer against their will all the time. It's a disgrace, you live a long life and then your wishes are ignored and you are forced to suffer until you die of it. That's torture.

Hospice often gets a really bad rap (being called "the death house" for example) but I was pleasantly surprised when I spent time in one during my training, I'd say about 90% of the work was about achieving symptom relief and patient comfort, after which they would return home to their families, there were many more discharges home than actual deaths. I would always advocate for hospice care, its so much more than dumping someone in a bed filling them full of opiates and waiting for them to die.
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#47

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 02:55 PM)skyking Wrote: I would echo my friend Adey's sentiments. The only tragedy I seek to prevent  is arriving at these end times with no clear understanding and plan. If you want every measure to extend life, make it clear. If there is some middle ground, make it clear in writing and to all. My personal fear would be being trapped in a noncommunicative state and aware but unable to convey my wishes.

Some states have "death with dignity" laws. If you are terminal, you can go to a doc and get a pill to take when you want to, and if you want to. This has actually resulted in less suicides, since it is now possible to wait as long as one wants to instead of trying to beat time and exit before one becomes unable to perform what is needed.
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#48

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 02:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  People who are serious about taking the exit don't want a psychiatrist or psychologist or a suicide preventer, they want advice on how to make it easier on those who remain behind, generally. 

You show me a counselor of any prescription who will support a person in their plans to take the exit. If there are any, they operate in the dark.

A mental health professional will help people sort out their reasoning and their affective state, but not the efficiency of suicide method.  They may even understand why such a decision is worthy of considering. 

 A sociopath may help with the details regardless of the situation or mental health.  Being an accessory to insurance fraud will be a bonus for them.

Self-determination is a valid consideration, but it is not the only consideration.
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#49

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 04:18 PM)JJonas93 Wrote:
(10-18-2021, 02:52 PM)Dom Wrote:  People who are serious about taking the exit don't want a psychiatrist or psychologist or a suicide preventer, they want advice on how to make it easier on those who remain behind, generally. 

You show me a counselor of any prescription who will support a person in their plans to take the exit. If there are any, they operate in the dark.

A mental health professional will help people sort out their reasoning and their affective state, but not the efficiency of suicide method.  They may even understand why such a decision is worthy of considering. 

 A sociopath may help with the details regardless of the situation or mental health.  Being an accessory to insurance fraud will be a bonus for them.

And a rational, kind person will discuss the matter openly and realistically, in it's entirety.

Of course, there is a huge difference between an elderly person considering an exit, and a teen. Teens mostly don't really know what they want yet and operate on very high levels of hormones and extreme emotions.

Different approaches are needed for different people, but public policy throws all in the same bucket.
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#50

Deathbed Dilemmas
(10-18-2021, 03:11 PM)adey67 Wrote:  Hospice often gets a really bad rap (being called "the death house" for example) but I was pleasantly surprised when I spent time in one during my training, I'd say about 90% of the work was about achieving symptom relief and patient comfort, after which they would return home to their families, there were many more discharges home than actual deaths. I would always advocate for hospice care, its so much more than dumping someone in a bed filling them full of opiates and waiting for them to die.

I have always heard great feedback about hospice workers. Never heard it referred to derogatively.
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