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apatheism
#51

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 10:16 PM)jimhabegger Wrote:
(09-03-2021, 01:58 PM)Dom Wrote: So, what label would apply? I thought of myself mainly as a freethinker before.

I’m thinking that the answer might be different with different people, and in different contexts. How did this question come up for you, of what label would apply?

Nothing in particular. Just a thought passing through...
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#52

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 06:26 PM)Antonio Wrote: I never really understood having to identify as atheist 

If some nutjob tries to start a conversation with me about santa clause
   
Or if someone is a flat earther .  Am I supposed to seriously supposed to be an anticlause or anti flatearther .

I suppose I'm more of a apatheist . I need another label to identify with .

I don't want to be anti or non or against or reject  someone else's fantasies or delusions . I feel like I'm being put in a position of taking part of their fantasies or delusions .

realist or freethinker may be more apt .  I'm so confused .

I also have a problem with how people use the term primitive beliefs

Try "nullifidian", or as has been mentioned, "non-religious".
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#53

apatheism
(09-03-2021, 01:58 PM)Dom Wrote: So, what label would apply? I thought of myself mainly as a freethinker before.

(09-18-2021, 10:16 PM)jimhabegger Wrote: I’m thinking that the answer might be different with different people, and in different contexts. How did this question come up for you, of what label would apply?

(09-18-2021, 11:16 PM)Dom Wrote: Nothing in particular. Just a thought passing through...

What I'm thinking now is that there might be some psychological and social benefits sometimes, from people applying identity labels to themselves, but those are far outweighed by the harm that it does, and there are better ways to have those benefits.
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#54

apatheism
Once you understand that outside labels are simplifications others use to make their own thinking easier, they become easier to shrug off.

If one wants to and accepts this or that label, that's their decision. If others need their labels to simplify their own thinking, that's a them problem, and not a me problem.

Labels happen; labels are sometimes useful. But in the end they too are only opinions. Humans have always given their opinions labels and so arguing against them seems like a useless thing.
Freedom isn't free.
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#55

apatheism
Just part of the occasional self contemplation here. Nothing that matters much, just idle thoughts.
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#56

apatheism
(09-19-2021, 12:19 AM)Dom Wrote: Just part of the occasional self contemplation here. Nothing that matters much, just idle thoughts.

So, are you still looking for an answer to your question "what label would apply?" or have you lost interest in that? If you're still looking, I might have some ideas for you, but as I said, it might be different with different people and in different contexts. I could just list whatever possible contexts I can think of, and what I might say for each one, but I'm not sure how helpful that would be.

One possible context I see is responding to other people's questions about it. In that case I wouldn't respond with a label. It would depend on the person, the context, and the question. "Do you believe in God?" means completely different things to different people. With some people, in some contexts, I might say "Yes." With some others, in other contexts, I might say "No." With some others, in some contexts, I might say "I don't believe in the reality or existence of what anyone might be thinking of as a creator, supreme being, or spirit of the Universe, but I use the word "God" in my thinking, and in conversations with people when I think they might be using it the same way I am."
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#57

apatheism
(09-19-2021, 12:51 AM)jimhabegger Wrote:
(09-19-2021, 12:19 AM)Dom Wrote: Just part of the occasional self contemplation here. Nothing that matters much, just idle thoughts.

So, are you still looking for an answer to your question "what label would apply?" or have you lost interest in that? If you're still looking, I might have some ideas for you, but as I said, it might be different with different people and in different contexts. I could just list whatever possible contexts I can think of, and what I might say for each one, but I'm not sure how helpful that would be.

One possible context I see is responding to other people's questions about it. In that case I wouldn't respond with a label. It would depend on the person, the context, and the question. "Do you believe in God?" means completely different things to different people. With some people, in some contexts, I might say "Yes." With some others, in other contexts, I might say "No." With some others, in some contexts, I might say "I don't believe in the reality or existence of what anyone might be thinking of as a creator, supreme being, or spirit of the Universe, but I use the word "God" in my thinking, and in conversations with people when I think they might be using it the same way I am."

Thanks, but I am happy with Freethinker and moving on. It's not important.
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#58

apatheism
(09-19-2021, 12:51 AM)jimhabegger Wrote:
(09-19-2021, 12:19 AM)Dom Wrote: Just part of the occasional self contemplation here. Nothing that matters much, just idle thoughts.

So, are you still looking for an answer to your question "what label would apply?" or have you lost interest in that? If you're still looking, I might have some ideas for you, but as I said, it might be different with different people and in different contexts. I could just list whatever possible contexts I can think of, and what I might say for each one, but I'm not sure how helpful that would be.

One possible context I see is responding to other people's questions about it. In that case I wouldn't respond with a label. It would depend on the person, the context, and the question. "Do you believe in God?" means completely different things to different people. With some people, in some contexts, I might say "Yes." With some others, in other contexts, I might say "No." With some others, in some contexts, I might say "I don't believe in the reality or existence of what anyone might be thinking of as a creator, supreme being, or spirit of the Universe, but I use the word "God" in my thinking, and in conversations with people when I think they might be using it the same way I am."

In which contexts would you say 'yes' to the question, "Do you believe in God?"
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#59

apatheism
(09-19-2021, 01:05 AM)Dānu Wrote: In which contexts would you say 'yes' to the question, "Do you believe in God?"

Actually, now that you put the question to me, I can't think of any examples. I was thinking, maybe sometimes with people who use the word the same way I do, but in that case, I can't imagine them asking me that question. If I ever answered the question that way, it would be in a context where it would be clear that we're not talking about the reality or existence of any supreme being, or creator or spirit of the Universe. Part of what it means is that I trust what some religious scriptures say about what God has said and done, in a context of imagining the universe as being created by someone called "God," without believing that there really is any such being.
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#60

apatheism
(09-19-2021, 12:19 AM)Dom Wrote: Just part of the occasional self contemplation here. Nothing that matters much, just idle thoughts.

One reason I love this place is that sometimes we get threads like this which allow us to muse.

ETA: and occasionally climb up our own asses.
Freedom isn't free.
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#61

apatheism
In actual practice, I find that labels like "atheist" or "apatheist" or "agnostic" have very little utility. In my world, at least, the topic just doesn't come up unless you force it to. On those rare occasions when it does arise organically, I'm not under the illusion that it's an invitation for me to change hearts and minds. People arrive at their beliefs about reality by a very long and very personal process. So long as they don't try to control my thinking they can (dis)agree with me as they see fit. If they want to make that particular narrow topic a basis for otherizing me then that is just information that they are not good friendship (or even acquaintance) material anyway.

The last time I was point-blank asked if I no longer believe in god, it was perhaps four years ago and the question came from my older brother, who is still an evangelical. I responded "no" and he replied "that's too bad" and it has not been discussed since. IF he had followed that up with an open ended question about how that came to be or how it works for me, I would have obliged, but he didn't ask, so I didn't offer. It is usually a good idea not to provide more info than really asked for. If it's not asked for, it's likely not wanted. My brother is willing to mostly leave me be as I am and respect my personal views, and I return the favor.

My criteria for people I spend time or effort on is: are they kind? Are they respectful? Do they have integrity and can be trusted? The answers to these questions have very little to do with their (a)religion or other beliefs. People compartmentalize. They can believe asshole-ish things without actually being assholes in most areas of their life most of the time. My brother, now that he's confirmed I'm an unbeliever and knows at least that my wife doesn't have a religious background, has made some low-grade efforts to drop hints or inject awkward advertorials for "the gospel" into a couple of conversations but if you don't take the bait and encourage it, or react defensively to it, it's not a big deal.
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#62

apatheism
(09-19-2021, 05:11 PM)mordant Wrote: In actual practice, I find that labels like "atheist" or "apatheist" or "agnostic" have very little utility. In my world, at least, the topic just doesn't come up unless you force it to. On those rare occasions when it does arise organically, I'm not under the illusion that it's an invitation for me to change hearts and minds. People arrive at their beliefs about reality by a very long and very personal process. So long as they don't try to control my thinking they can (dis)agree with me as they see fit. If they want to make that particular narrow topic a basis for otherizing me then that is just information that they are not good friendship (or even acquaintance) material anyway...

Great response mate.  Well phrased.     Thumbs Up
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#63

apatheism
I have trouble separating  my disgust for religious organizations for the negative impact they have on the planet in general and humans in particular from the individuals who support those organization . I have severely limited my exposure to them .

The question of deities and religions would probably only come up among friends in a discussion about religion and their current misdeeds
 All I know is that I know nothing
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#64

apatheism
[Image: icon_quote.jpg]This guy:
I'm here for the tacos.

[Image: icon_quote.jpg]Inkubus:
I wish you would fuck off with the tacos. 

So, you're a fan of the hand churned sour cream?

I can make you some.
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#65

apatheism
(09-19-2021, 05:11 PM)mordant Wrote: In actual practice, I find that labels like "atheist" or "apatheist" or "agnostic" have very little utility.

We're not the ones who think those labels will send you to hell, or that calling yourself a Christian or a Muslim is a ticket to paradise.
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#66

apatheism
They are words. Which, like all other words, describe other things. Signs, if we can get a bit semiological (my favourite discipline in uni, coincidentally). As de Saussure said (quoting off the top of my head so probably not word for word... or sign for sign Angel2 ): "A sign is a sign that stands for something to someone." As such (and as all other words - or signs) they *are* useful in order to describe the reality of life and human experience and in this particular instance, the reality of religion or lack thereof.

Calling them labels and then distancing oneself from them is.. well pointless, because it's like attempting to distance oneself from language. And language, even for the barely coherent, is a huge part of what makes us human.

So we might wax poetic - or pointless - till we're blue in the face and call ourselves everything under the sun but the truth of the matter is, in a world with religion in it, we do need a word to describe those who have one and those who haven't. As of right now, atheist is one of the most common and most immediately understood ones.

The rest is mostly pointless waffling.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#67

apatheism
(09-20-2021, 02:21 PM)Vera Wrote: They are words. Which, like all other words, describe other things. Signs, if we can get a bit semiological (my favourite discipline in uni, coincidentally). As de Saussure said (quoting off the top of my head so probably not word for word... or sign for sign Angel2 ): "A sign is a sign that stands for something to someone." As such (and as all other words - or signs) they *are* useful in order to describe the reality of life and human experience and in this particular instance, the reality of religion or lack thereof.

Calling them labels and then distancing oneself from them is.. well pointless, because it's like attempting to distance oneself from language. And language, even for the barely coherent, is a huge part of what makes us human.

So we might wax poetic - or pointless - till we're blue in the face and call ourselves everything under the sun but the truth of the matter is, in a world with religion in it, we do need a word to describe those who have one and those who haven't. As of right now, atheist is one of the most common and most immediately understood ones.

The rest is mostly pointless waffling.

I wouldn't completely define myself as a "gamer", and it would be silly to do so, but I am still a gamer, because I play video games. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#68

apatheism
Thank you Thump, for re-stating that labels are for others. It fits my personal philosophy as well.
They are words and part of language, but it is interesting and revealing to note just how many labels are in the bible.
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#69

apatheism
(09-19-2021, 05:11 PM)mordant Wrote: People arrive at their beliefs about reality by a very long and very personal process.

This is a pretty broad assertion. In my experience, the vast majority of people don't hold radically different beliefs than those they grew up with. There's a shit load of people out there who have very little intellectual curiosity.
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#70

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(09-20-2021, 04:57 PM)skyking Wrote: Thank you Thump, for re-stating that labels are for others. It fits my personal philosophy as well.
They are words and part of language, but it is interesting and revealing to note just how many labels are in the bible.

Yep, this line says it all.

(09-19-2021, 12:17 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Once you understand that outside labels are simplifications others use to make their own thinking easier, they become easier to shrug off.

With no label it's harder for an opponent to aim the dagger.
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#71

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(09-20-2021, 06:15 PM)KevinM1 Wrote: This is a pretty broad assertion.  In my experience, the vast majority of people don't hold radically different beliefs than those they grew up with.  There's a shit load of people out there who have very little intellectual curiosity.

Yep, tradition and inertia are very hard to beat. And if there's not much pressure, either external or internal, there's little reason to try and beat them. And so a lot of us go merrily along the path those before them have gone, with nary a thought about it.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#72

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(09-20-2021, 02:21 PM)Vera Wrote: They are words. Which, like all other words, describe other things. Signs, if we can get a bit semiological (my favourite discipline in uni, coincidentally). As de Saussure said (quoting off the top of my head so probably not word for word... or sign for sign Angel2 ): "A sign is a sign that stands for something to someone." As such (and as all other words - or signs) they *are* useful in order to describe the reality of life and human experience and in this particular instance, the reality of religion or lack thereof.

Calling them labels and then distancing oneself from them is.. well pointless, because it's like attempting to distance oneself from language. And language, even for the barely coherent, is a huge part of what makes us human.

So we might wax poetic - or pointless - till we're blue in the face and call ourselves everything under the sun but the truth of the matter is, in a world with religion in it, we do need a word to describe those who have one and those who haven't. As of right now, atheist is one of the most common and most immediately understood ones.

The rest is mostly pointless waffling.
I did not mean to say that the words were meaningless, just that they don't have much practical social utility to me as they are not topics that arise but once in a blue moon in my relationships. That is partly because I'm not that social to begin with and partly because I don't live in, e.g., the southern US where everyone is obsessed with religion and might make more of an effort to classify me tribally like that. I have the luxury of "live and let live" in an area where the vast majority of people are willing to return the favor.
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#73

apatheism
(09-20-2021, 11:53 PM)mordant Wrote: I have the luxury of "live and let live" in an area where the vast majority of people are willing to return the favor.

Me too. I never experienced it any other way. Come to think of it, I never had any religious talk, not even with family and friends. So I never applied a label to myself, apart from atheist not making me as a person.
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