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apatheism
#26

apatheism
(09-03-2021, 08:25 PM)Inkubus Wrote:
(09-03-2021, 01:58 PM)Dom Wrote: So, since I quit going to church or thinking about it when I was a kid, I kind of went through my entire life just ignoring religion. Once in a blue moon (two occasions come to mind) I ran into someone who was so religious that they annoyed the heck out of me. So, I removed them from my life. Gave it no second thought.

Fast forward to some 10 years ago, hubby died and in his living will he wrote that he wanted no last rites because he was an atheist. The first responders reacted badly, and that motivated me to find atheists to talk to which landed me at TTA.

That was the first time I actually identified as atheist. Before that, it wasn't even a thing in my life. 

So, what label would apply? I thought of myself mainly as a freethinker before. 

Quote:  Freethinkers hold that knowledge should be grounded in facts, scientific inquiry, and logic. The skeptical application of science implies freedom from the intellectually limiting effects of confirmation biascognitive biasconventional wisdompopular cultureurban mythprejudice, or sectarianism.


It's actually a broader concept than just atheism. Now, I still prefer that to the atheist label.

But, I don't much care for labels in the first place, no matter how you try to whittle them down, they are still too broad to capture everyone's basic attitudes.

Yes I suppose I'm a freethinker, a rational thinker and a secular humanist but I would never use any of those terms to describe myself to a casual inquirer.
I'm a freethinker. You're a what?
A label that needs an explanation is not much of a label, as it is people struggle with the simple term atheist.

It used to be the opposite, people knew what a free-thinker was, and atheist was a lesser known term. Freethought has been around a long time.

Anyway, I was one of the "nones". No religious affiliation. I suspect that most of the "nones" qualify as atheist.
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#27

apatheism
I tell people (particularly theists) that I'm an atheist—in order to keep it simple.
I'm actually ignostic, but if I tell people that I'm invariably met with blank looks.

I bend my ignosticism of course in order to debate religious points of view on
forums such as this one.  But it's a pastime rather than any sort of penchant.

It's tiring to "debate" with true believers the pros and cons of their holy books,
or their various gods or emissaries.  You'll never win, so why bother with any
actual deconversion attempts—other than to have some fun at their expense.

A theist can also be described as an "apatheist" according to Adam Scott Kunz.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#28

apatheism
(09-03-2021, 08:56 PM)SYZ Wrote: I tell people (particularly theists) that I'm an atheist—in order to keep it simple.
I'm actually ignostic, but if I tell people that I'm invariably met with blank looks.

I bend my ignosticism of course in order to debate religious points of view on
forums such as this one.  But it's a pastime rather than any sort of penchant.

It's tiring to "debate" with true believers the pros and cons of their holy books,
or their various gods or emissaries.  You'll never win, so why bother with any
actual deconversion attempts—other than to have some fun at their expense.

A theist can also be described as an "apatheist" according to Adam Scott Kunz.

If you really want to fuck with their heads tell them you're a Theological Noncognivitist. wiki

And someone needs to tell that Kunz his computer is almost out of black electrons.
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#29

apatheism
(09-03-2021, 08:25 PM)Inkubus Wrote: Yes I suppose I'm a freethinker, a rational thinker and a secular humanist but I would never use any of those terms to describe myself to a casual inquirer.
I'm a freethinker: You're a what?
A label that needs an explanation is not much of a label, as it is people struggle with the simple term, atheist.

"Lockist!" That's the one, that'll do for me.

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#30

apatheism
It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "atheist," is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them. Another way is for fundraising purposes, by people thinking that the label applies to them and that the funds are being used to fight for them. It doesn't communicate any actual information about a person, not even what they think or how they feel about any god or Gods. It creates misunderstandings from people interpreting what a person says according to their stereotypes of the label, and it limits a person's thinking about their possibilities in life, from stereotyping themselves. It also induces people to repress some of their thoughts and feelings, and parts of their personalities, that are stigmatized in the alliance. Considering all that, mostly I avoid using those labels. One exception is in discussions of what to do about prejudices and discrimination against them.
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#31

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 07:13 AM)jimhabegger Wrote: It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "atheist," is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them.

It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "Christian," is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them.

It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "gay," is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them.

It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "Mexican," is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them.

It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "woman," is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them.



Since I, validation-seeking labeler that I am, rarely presume to opine on why all (or even most) people do something (arrogant atheist that I am Deadpan Coffee Drinker ), I can only speak for myself: nowhere in my journey to calling myself an atheist (and it was a journey, I wasted quite a few years of my life on a primitive, often hateful mythology*, being stuck in the understanding of the world and the values of primitive people, instead of my own much more enlightened century) was I motivated by a desire to be "validated and valued" for how I felt about god or lack thereof.

I just finally shook the mental shackles and realised that was the correct word to describe how I felt about the existence of an almighty being that created an entire universe especially for ME.

Quote:It limits a person's thinking about their possibilities in life, from stereotyping themselves. It also induces people to repress some of their thoughts and feelings, and parts of their personalities, that are stigmatized in the alliance.

Says waaaaaay more about your experience and that of many religious people than it does about mine or, I'm willing to bet most people's here. I've never suppressed any thought or feeling for fear my "fellow atheists" may shun me, nor has atheism "limited my thinking" about any possibility.

I have, however, read the stories of MANY people, including on this very forum, who have had to repress and hide (and still do) parts of who they are for fear of being ostracised in their supposedly loving, "god-fearing" communities. Hell, we've even had people who have been literally shunned and kicked out of their families' lives.

So philosophising in theory about the stunting effect of calling oneself an atheist is all good, but doesn't quite jibe with the *reality*.

But of course, we all create our own narratives... it's just, some people are way less inclined to question the story they've weaved in their minds (well, in all fairness, we all are, when it's about something really personal). Even when they impose them on others, a WHOLE LOT of diverse others.



* OK, being a self-taught religionist, I didn't really subscribe to many (if any) of Xtianity's viler aspects.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#32

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 07:13 AM)jimhabegger Wrote: It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "atheist," is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them. 

I think we atheists are pretty good at not letting our common atheism get in the way of valid, and sometimes invalid, criticisms.  (Perhaps we find that validating in a way, unlike other groups which feed off "fellow feelings.")  We do, after all, value science highly, with its critical thinking and peer reviews.
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#33

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 10:33 AM)Alan V Wrote: I think we atheists are pretty good at not letting our common atheism get in the way of valid, and sometimes invalid, criticisms.  (Perhaps we find that validating in a way, unlike other groups which feed off "fellow feelings.")  We do, after all, value science highly, with its critical thinking and peer reviews.

Atheism doesn't define who I am. So I'm not waving it like a flag for everyone to see. If asked, which happens rarely, I say, I'm not religious, but that's about it. In real life there never ensued a debate over that.

And the days when it was fun to challenge the bible blazing christians on one board or the other, are long past for me.
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#34

apatheism
Oh goody, the lecturing asshole has decided to check in. Get ready to be told what we really think and feel.
god, ugh
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#35

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 10:47 AM)abaris Wrote:
(09-18-2021, 10:33 AM)Alan V Wrote: I think we atheists are pretty good at not letting our common atheism get in the way of valid, and sometimes invalid, criticisms.  (Perhaps we find that validating in a way, unlike other groups which feed off "fellow feelings.")  We do, after all, value science highly, with its critical thinking and peer reviews.

Atheism doesn't define who I am. So I'm not waving it like a flag for everyone to see. If asked, which happens rarely, I say, I'm not religious, but that's about it. In real life there never ensued a debate over that.

And the days when it was fun to challenge the bible blazing christians on one board or the other, are long past for me.

It doesn't totally define who I am, sure. But it is part of who I am nevertheless. And as long as I live in a country where religious nutjobs are attempting to create a theocracy, I will continue to care about the issue.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#36

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 07:13 AM)jimhabegger Wrote: It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "atheist," is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them. Another way is for fundraising purposes, by people thinking that the label applies to them and that the funds are being used to fight for them. It doesn't communicate any actual information about a person, not even what they think or how they feel about any god or Gods. It creates misunderstandings from people interpreting what a person says according to their stereotypes of the label, and it limits a person's thinking about their possibilities in life, from stereotyping themselves. It also induces people to repress some of their thoughts and feelings, and parts of their personalities, that are stigmatized in the alliance. Considering all that, mostly I avoid using those labels. One exception is in discussions of what to do about prejudices and discrimination against them.

That's pretty sad.
Freedom isn't free.
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#37

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 02:51 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(09-18-2021, 07:13 AM)jimhabegger Wrote: It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "atheist," is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them. Another way is for fundraising purposes, by people thinking that the label applies to them and that the funds are being used to fight for them. It doesn't communicate any actual information about a person, not even what they think or how they feel about any god or Gods. It creates misunderstandings from people interpreting what a person says according to their stereotypes of the label, and it limits a person's thinking about their possibilities in life, from stereotyping themselves. It also induces people to repress some of their thoughts and feelings, and parts of their personalities, that are stigmatized in the alliance. Considering all that, mostly I avoid using those labels. One exception is in discussions of what to do about prejudices and discrimination against them.

That's pretty sad.

Personally I'm suspicious of anyone who suggests they're above labels. Tends to be a sign of arrogance. Or, perhaps cowardice.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#38

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 03:06 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: Personally I'm suspicious of anyone who suggests they're above labels. Tends to be a sign of arrogance.

Or even more deluded than most of us, a.k.a. the "I'm not Xtian/religious, I have a personal rship with god" crowd. Or anyone who comes up with some obscure, made up name for something which already has a word for it.

If people ask me about my nationality, I say I'm Bulgarian, if they ask me about me gender, I say I'm a woman, if they ask me about my religion, I say I'm an atheist. Much like ALL words, those are just that - words that describe that particular part of who I am. Not one of them describes me in my entirety, nor does any one of them define me.

On the other hand, I've seen maaaany a Xtian, proudly state they are first and foremost Xtians, followers of Jesus, what have you.

Projection, thy name is (more often than not) religious people on this forum.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#39

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 03:14 PM)Vera Wrote: On the other hand, I've seen maaaany a Xtian, proudly state they are first and foremost Xtians, followers of Jesus, what have you.

Where I live that hardly comes up. Practically noone's talking about religion or the absence thereoff. Hell, we had an atheist president for 12 years. He was elected twice.
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#40

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 03:35 PM)abaris Wrote: Where I live that hardly comes up. Practically noone's talking about religion or the absence thereoff. Hell, we had an atheist president for 12 years. He was elected twice.

Yeah, I've mostly seen it online... or from Americans, South Africans and Brazilians I've encountered in real life. Not really in Europe.

But since complaints about atheists and our evil, oppressive ways, also, our labels, are usually made online and about online discussions, all the online outpourings of how god comes first in their lives are pertinent.

ETA: Our whole country was atheist for 45 years so we've got you beat there Tongue
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#41

apatheism
As a kid living in a rather isloated area of the Sierra Nevada Mountains (no tv or radio, no neighbors)  I didn't have a god concept at all.  So essentially there was no space in my brain that a god thought existed.  I didn't know what I didn't know.  My parents both grew up in battling religious homes so they didn't discuss religion.   In order to be an atheist one needs to know that people believe in a god.  I didn't even have that to mull over in my mind.  It wasn't until I was about 10 and we moved to an area with people that I heard about a god and that was the first time I heard about Jesus.   I had a wonderful childhood!
                                                         T4618
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#42

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 03:39 PM)Vera Wrote:
(09-18-2021, 03:35 PM)abaris Wrote: Where I live that hardly comes up. Practically noone's talking about religion or the absence thereoff. Hell, we had an atheist president for 12 years. He was elected twice.

Yeah, I've mostly seen it online... or from Americans, South Africans and Brazilians I've encountered in real life. Not really in Europe.

But since complaints about atheists and our evil, oppressive ways, also, our labels, are usually made online and about online discussions, all the online outpourings of how god comes first in their lives are pertinent.

ETA: Our whole country was atheist for 45 years so we've got you beat there Tongue

Where I live, we have it shoved down our throats 24/7 by the Republican party who now litetally worship a wannabe dictator, and their religious fanaticism is also hampering the pandemic response, in addition to all the other problems it creates, like the potential destruction of democracy. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#43

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 07:13 AM)jimhabegger Wrote: It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "atheist", is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them.

Nope;  this is totally incorrect WRT atheists.  That sort of thing applies to theists.
As a lifelong atheist, I have zero "need" to feel validated or valued dependent on
being an atheist.  Again, this is the purview of theists.  In fact "getting attention"
explains why theists regularly gather in the one place in order to do just that, and
support each other.   Have you ever seen an atheist house of worship?

Jim Wrote:Another way is for fundraising purposes, by people thinking that the label applies to them and that the funds are being used to fight for them. It doesn't communicate any actual information about a person, not even what they think or how they feel about any god or Gods.

Sorry, I'm afraid I have no idea what this means.    Please clarify.

Jim Wrote:It creates misunderstandings from people interpreting what a person says according to their stereotypes of the label, and it limits a person's thinking about their possibilities in life, from stereotyping themselves.

This explains the ongoing wars between Muslims and Christian; Sunnis and Shia;
Catholics and Protestants; Jews and Muslims; Hindus and Sikhs, Muslims and Hindus;
Catholics and Orthodox; Buddhists and Catholics etc.  I certainly don't see any wars
started in the name of atheism, or atheists fighting with atheists.

Jim Wrote:It also induces people to repress some of their thoughts and feelings, and parts of their personalities, that are stigmatized in the alliance.

I don't "repress" any of my personal characteristics simply because I happen to be
self-described as an atheist (in actuality, I'm ignostic).  My atheism has absolutely
nothing to do with my generalised, unbiassed, worldly opinions—unlike theists who're
ultimately guided and driven by the dogma of antiquity.

Jim Wrote:Considering all that, mostly I avoid using those labels. One exception
is in discussions of what to do about prejudices and discrimination against them.

Okay, so if I were  to apply a label to you, what would it be?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#44

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 03:39 PM)Vera Wrote:
(09-18-2021, 03:35 PM)abaris Wrote: Where I live that hardly comes up. Practically noone's talking about religion or the absence thereoff. Hell, we had an atheist president for 12 years. He was elected twice.

Yeah, I've mostly seen it online... or from Americans, South Africans and Brazilians I've encountered in real life. Not really in Europe.

But since complaints about atheists and our evil, oppressive ways, also, our labels, are usually made online and about online discussions, all the online outpourings of how god comes first in their lives are pertinent.

ETA: Our whole country was atheist for 45 years so we've got you beat there Tongue

I was born in the wrong country.  Sad

-Teresa
There is in the universe only one true divide, one real binary, life and death. Either you are living or you are not. Everything else is molten, malleable.

-Susan Faludi, In the Darkroom
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#45

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 07:13 AM)jimhabegger Wrote: It looks to me like one way that people use identity labels, including "atheist," is to feel validated and valued by some other people under that label, and/or to get friendly attention from them. Another way is for fundraising purposes, by people thinking that the label applies to them and that the funds are being used to fight for them. It doesn't communicate any actual information about a person, not even what they think or how they feel about any god or Gods. It creates misunderstandings from people interpreting what a person says according to their stereotypes of the label, and it limits a person's thinking about their possibilities in life, from stereotyping themselves. It also induces people to repress some of their thoughts and feelings, and parts of their personalities, that are stigmatized in the alliance. Considering all that, mostly I avoid using those labels. One exception is in discussions of what to do about prejudices and discrimination against them.

Identity labels are normal and are not all bad. Homo sapiens are naturally inclined to identify patterns - it's how we've survived as a species - and saying one doesn't use them is disingenuous.

Treating others better or worse because of their identity is of course discrimination but I don't see how your comment fits in here.

It was the atheism bit that brought me to this site, however, I don't wear atheism on my sleeve and I'm not particularly interested in being in a "group" of atheists in real life. I just want people to keep their gods out of my life, simple as that.
There is in the universe only one true divide, one real binary, life and death. Either you are living or you are not. Everything else is molten, malleable.

-Susan Faludi, In the Darkroom
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#46

apatheism
I never really understood having to identify as atheist 

If some nutjob tries to start a conversation with me about santa clause
   
Or if someone is a flat earther .  Am I supposed to seriously supposed to be an anticlause or anti flatearther .

I suppose I'm more of a apatheist . I need another label to identify with .

I don't want to be anti or non or against or reject  someone else's fantasies or delusions . I feel like I'm being put in a position of taking part of their fantasies or delusions .

realist or freethinker may be more apt .  I'm so confused .

I also have a problem with how people use the term primitive beliefs
 All I know is that I know nothing
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#47

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 03:39 PM)Vera Wrote: ETA: Our whole country was atheist for 45 years so we've got you beat there Tongue

Forced atheism. Don't know much about the situation in Bulgaria, but in Russia, Poland or Hungary there has been a massive religious backclash. Poland is a near theocracy by now.
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#48

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 05:47 PM)Tres Leches Wrote: I was born in the wrong country.  Sad

-Teresa

I don't think you would've liked communism overmuch Tongue

Though we did have free education and healthcare. Actually, mine was one of the last generations whose univerisity education was free, after communism fell (though the costs now are negligible).

(09-18-2021, 06:53 PM)abaris Wrote: Forced atheism.

[Image: joke-jk.gif]


Quote:Don't know much about the situation in Bulgaria, but in Russia, Poland or Hungary there has been a massive religious backclash. Poland is a near theocracy by now.

There was a sort of a return to the church after communism fell but it never really amounted to more than cultural xtianity. People mostly don't give a shit, not in their everyday lives or discourse.

Can't speak for Russia (it's a whole other level of crazy over there) but I've always kinda assumed that the reason for the ridiculous levels of religiousness in Poland (and Hungary) is that they're Catholic and the Catholic Church really seems to have its members by the balls, in a manner of speaking (and often, pretty literally Dodgy ) (add to that the fact that that "AIDS is a punishment from gawd" creep John Paul The Jerk was Polish and you have the makings of the perfect religious insanity storm.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#49

apatheism
(09-18-2021, 05:03 PM)SYZ Wrote:
Jim Wrote:Another way is for fundraising purposes, by people thinking that the label applies to them and that the funds are being used to fight for them. It doesn't communicate any actual information about a person, not even what they think or how they feel about any god or Gods.

Sorry, I'm afraid I have no idea what this means.    Please clarify.
Running those sentences together like I did, might have created some confusion. Sorry. The first sentence was about a way that I’ve seen people using identity labels sometimes. The second sentence was about my reasons for mostly avoiding them.


“SYZ” Wrote:Okay, so if I were  to apply a label to you, what would it be?
I don’t understand the question. How would I have any way of knowing what label you would apply to me?

If you want to know what my views are about God and religion, I could post about that in an intro thread.
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#50

apatheism
(09-03-2021, 01:58 PM)Dom Wrote: So, what label would apply? I thought of myself mainly as a freethinker before.

I’m thinking that the answer might be different with different people, and in different contexts. How did this question come up for you, of what label would apply?
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