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On bended knee
#76

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 01:17 PM)Cavebear Wrote: By definition, a deity would HAVE TO BE RIGHT.  Always and perfectly.  Or it isn't a deity.

I see that as a subset of possible deities, specifically omniscient ones.  The term "deity" in its broader sense could include god-like beings capable of making mistakes, and possibly lacking in omniscience and prescience.
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#77

On bended knee
@Dancefortwo

Whenever Christians quote the Bible at me, I quote The Silmarillion back at them. If they then claim that The Silmarillion is fiction, I point out that the Bible is also a book of fiction until they produce evidence to the contrary.  Big Grin
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
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#78

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(09-02-2021, 12:52 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote: @Dancefortwo

Whenever Christians quote the Bible at me, I quote The Silmarillion back at them. If they then claim that The Silmarillion is fiction, I point out that the Bible is also a book of fiction until they produce evidence to the contrary.  Big Grin

But then Christians love to reply...."Hey, but what about all those prophecies!"   

It never occures to Christians that a book could be back-written to retrofit a character into a prophecisied role from the previous book.  It just never enters their mind, I guess because they're so blinded by indoctrination.  But this is exactly what happened in the New Testament.  Scholars can follow the mistranslations and misinterpretations the New Testament writers used in their zeal to shoehorn Jesus into the messiah role. You simply cannot have a book compiled over hundreds of years, written by many people then edited several times be a book of prophecies.  It just doesn't work that way.
                                                         T4618
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#79

On bended knee
The bible , my know nothing take

The bible it's just a corrupt perverted interpretation of ancient history designed to deceive the population into the transition from spiritualism to religion .
 All I know is that I know nothing
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#80

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 06:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: This hypothetical question is often asked of atheists by Christians and I bet it pisses you off as much as it pisses me off. 

"Would you bow down and bend your knee to a powerful god?"  


Would you happily kill heretics in name of your all powerful God?
I am a sovereign citizen of the Multiverse, and I vote!


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#81

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(09-02-2021, 02:33 AM)Astreja Wrote:
(09-01-2021, 01:17 PM)Cavebear Wrote: By definition, a deity would HAVE TO BE RIGHT.  Always and perfectly.  Or it isn't a deity.

I see that as a subset of possible deities, specifically omniscient ones.  The term "deity" in its broader sense could include god-like beings capable of making mistakes, and possibly lacking in omniscience and prescience.

A Deity is not "god-like". It would BE GOD. What you are describing are just very advanced aliens.
I never had monsters under the bed, in the closet, or an imaginary friend.  Where did I go wrong?
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#82

On bended knee
(09-05-2021, 06:23 AM)Cavebear Wrote: A Deity is not "god-like".  It would BE GOD.  What you are describing are just very advanced aliens.

I'm a strong agnostic in that regard.  I just don't see how anyone could definitively tell the difference between a god and a god-like being/very advanced alien.
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#83

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(09-06-2021, 04:07 AM)Astreja Wrote: I just don't see how anyone could definitively tell the difference between a god and a god-like being.

You can't. Because there is no real, clear-cut definition of a god or deity. And yes, they are, for all intents and purposes, the same.

Now, a lot of people, coming from a culturally Judeo-Xtian background kinda assume that a "real" god is a (genocidal, racist, misogynistic, supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing) figure like those vile religions worship. That doesn't make it so.

Both god and deity (and other related words) describe something vague and nebulous (and non-existing).

Hence - igtheism.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#84

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(09-05-2021, 06:23 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-02-2021, 02:33 AM)Astreja Wrote:
(09-01-2021, 01:17 PM)Cavebear Wrote: By definition, a deity would HAVE TO BE RIGHT.  Always and perfectly.  Or it isn't a deity.

I see that as a subset of possible deities, specifically omniscient ones.  The term "deity" in its broader sense could include god-like beings capable of making mistakes, and possibly lacking in omniscience and prescience.

A Deity is not "god-like".  It would BE GOD.  What you are describing are just very advanced aliens.

So all polytheistic deities are not deities?
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#85

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(08-27-2021, 06:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: This hypothetical question is often asked of atheists by Christians and I bet it pisses you off as much as it pisses me off. 

"Would you bow down and bend your knee to a powerful god?"  

No, but I might bend over and say "Kiss my ass, Lou!"
Don't mistake me for those nice folks from Give-A-Shit county.
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#86

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 06:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: This hypothetical question is often asked of atheists by Christians and I bet it pisses you off as much as it pisses me off. 

"Would you bow down and bend your knee to a powerful god?"  

 I'm in a discussion with a christian on reddit over this very question.  What this question is REALLY asking is if you'd prostrate and humble yourself to a god and show how small, powerless and insiginificant you are.  It's a test question that establishes a sadomasochistic relationship with a powerful source.  They essentially want to humiliate you into submission.

First, there's a big problem.   They never establish whether their god exists so the question doesn't apply to reality.  I deal with reality.  They also never seem to ask if I would bend my knee to Zeus or Apollo or the American Indian god Wahanda.  No,  it's always the Biblical god.  So their question is disengenuous and Christian-centric from the get-go. 

My answer to this guy is that his question ("would you bend your knee to god?") is similar to someone asking me if I would make clothing items for an invisible garden Gnome.   Being a seamstress/costume designer by trade I'd need specific measurements.  I'd need his inseam, waist, shirt size and several other details.  But more importantly,  I'm not going to waste my time making small clothing items if this Gnome doesn't exist.  And if someone is testing my character just to see if I'd go to all the trouble of tailoring an entire mini costume for an invisible Gnome, then that person is sadistic from the word go.    

Any thoughts on my reply?



gun point or money?
Yup.
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#87

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(09-06-2021, 10:58 AM)Vera Wrote:
(09-06-2021, 04:07 AM)Astreja Wrote: I just don't see how anyone could definitively tell the difference between a god and a god-like being.

You can't. Because there is no real, clear-cut definition of a god or deity. And yes, they are, for all intents and purposes, the same.

Now, a lot of people, coming from a culturally Judeo-Xtian background kinda assume that a "real" god is a (genocidal, racist, misogynistic, supposedly all-powerful and all-knowing) figure like those vile religions worship. That doesn't make it so.

Both god and deity (and other related words) describe something vague and nebulous (and non-existing).

Hence - igtheism.

I would think it's reasonable to define a specific deity by its specific alleged capabilities, though. For example: the Judaeo-Christian god is an imaginary being who is supposedly eternal, omnipotent and supposedly can answer prayers. I'm not sure if there's anything vague about that specific definition.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#88

On bended knee
Vague no, but incoherent, yes.
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#89

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(09-07-2021, 12:56 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: I would think it's reasonable to define a specific deity by its specific alleged capabilities, though. For example: the Judaeo-Christian god is an imaginary being who is supposedly eternal, omnipotent and supposedly can answer prayers. I'm not sure if there's anything vague about that specific definition.

Only, those, too, do not really have proper definitions, do they? Eternal is meaningless in the framework of our universe to the extent we know it, "omnipotent" is a nice-sounding nothing (can god create a rock he can't lift?) and "answers prayers" is... well, even less than nothing.

Which leads us to:

[Image: st,small,507x507-pad,600x600,f8f8f8.u10.jpg]
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#90

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(09-06-2021, 04:07 AM)Astreja Wrote:
(09-05-2021, 06:23 AM)Cavebear Wrote: A Deity is not "god-like".  It would BE GOD.  What you are describing are just very advanced aliens.

I'm a strong agnostic in that regard.  I just don't see how anyone could definitively tell the difference between a god and a god-like being/very advanced alien.

You tell by seeing what kind of silly hat they are wearing.

Tongue
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#91

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(09-06-2021, 04:07 AM)Astreja Wrote:
(09-05-2021, 06:23 AM)Cavebear Wrote: A Deity is not "god-like".  It would BE GOD.  What you are describing are just very advanced aliens.

I'm a strong agnostic in that regard.  I just don't see how anyone could definitively tell the difference between a god and a god-like being/very advanced alien.

A very-advanced alien would have some weakness. A deity would have none.
I never had monsters under the bed, in the closet, or an imaginary friend.  Where did I go wrong?
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#92

On bended knee
(09-06-2021, 03:57 PM)Mr Greene Wrote:
(09-05-2021, 06:23 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-02-2021, 02:33 AM)Astreja Wrote: I see that as a subset of possible deities, specifically omniscient ones.  The term "deity" in its broader sense could include god-like beings capable of making mistakes, and possibly lacking in omniscience and prescience.

A Deity is not "god-like".  It would BE GOD.  What you are describing are just very advanced aliens.

So all polytheistic deities are not deities?

OK, that is a decent question. But how could there be more than one omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient being more than ONE? Wouldn't 2 have to conflict in some way? And if they always agreed, wouldn't one be superfluous?
I never had monsters under the bed, in the closet, or an imaginary friend.  Where did I go wrong?
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#93

On bended knee
(09-09-2021, 07:54 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-06-2021, 03:57 PM)Mr Greene Wrote:
(09-05-2021, 06:23 AM)Cavebear Wrote: A Deity is not "god-like".  It would BE GOD.  What you are describing are just very advanced aliens.

So all polytheistic deities are not deities?

OK, that is a decent question.  But how could there be more than one omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient being more than ONE?  Wouldn't 2 have to conflict in some way?  And if they always agreed, wouldn't one be superfluous?

Polytheistic deities would not normally match the claimed properties of a monotheistic deity (see any mythology with deities being tricked or deceived, a tall order with anything omniscient.) though the fact that those properties are mutually exclusive doesn't usually occur to your average monotheist. (When it's pointed out they usually try to redefine the terms)
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#94

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(09-09-2021, 03:54 PM)Mr Greene Wrote:
(09-09-2021, 07:54 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(09-06-2021, 03:57 PM)Mr Greene Wrote: So all polytheistic deities are not deities?

OK, that is a decent question.  But how could there be more than one omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient being more than ONE?  Wouldn't 2 have to conflict in some way?  And if they always agreed, wouldn't one be superfluous?

Polytheistic deities would not normally match the claimed properties of a monotheistic deity (see any mythology with deities being tricked or deceived, a tall order with anything omniscient.) though the fact that those properties are mutually exclusive doesn't usually occur to your average monotheist. (When it's pointed out they usually try to redefine the terms)

Most polytheistic theisms still have a Top god and that can be understood (today) like monotheism.
I never had monsters under the bed, in the closet, or an imaginary friend.  Where did I go wrong?
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#95

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(08-27-2021, 06:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: This hypothetical question is often asked of atheists by Christians and I bet it pisses you off as much as it pisses me off. 

"Would you bow down and bend your knee to a powerful god?"  

 I'm in a discussion with a christian on reddit over this very question.  What this question is REALLY asking is if you'd prostrate and humble yourself to a god and show how small, powerless and insiginificant you are.  It's a test question that establishes a sadomasochistic relationship with a powerful source.  They essentially want to humiliate you into submission.

First, there's a big problem.   They never establish whether their god exists so the question doesn't apply to reality.  I deal with reality.  They also never seem to ask if I would bend my knee to Zeus or Apollo or the American Indian god Wahanda.  No,  it's always the Biblical god.  So their question is disengenuous and Christian-centric from the get-go. 

My answer to this guy is that his question ("would you bend your knee to god?") is similar to someone asking me if I would make clothing items for an invisible garden Gnome.   Being a seamstress/costume designer by trade I'd need specific measurements.  I'd need his inseam, waist, shirt size and several other details.  But more importantly,  I'm not going to waste my time making small clothing items if this Gnome doesn't exist.  And if someone is testing my character just to see if I'd go to all the trouble of tailoring an entire mini costume for an invisible Gnome, then that person is sadistic from the word go.    

Any thoughts on my reply?

I guess if the God of the Abrahamic religions really was real I'd swallow my pride and kneel. He'd be absolutely evil and I would not love or respect him, but it's not worth spending an eternity in Hell to make a point.

Good thing that won't actually happen.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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#96

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(09-10-2021, 04:41 PM)Aegon Wrote: I guess if the God of the Abrahamic religions really was real I'd swallow my pride and kneel. He'd be absolutely evil and I would not love or respect him, but it's not worth spending an eternity in Hell to make a point.

Good thing that won't actually happen.

You're still fucked. He's omniscient so he knows you're lying.
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