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On bended knee
#51

On bended knee
(08-29-2021, 04:12 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(08-29-2021, 05:01 AM)KevinM1 Wrote:
(08-29-2021, 01:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Actually to be honest, it depends.
Depends on the *covenant* the god is offering, and what's in it for me.
Do I get to be "chosen" ? Do I get the stand up on any hill and pick my "promised land" ?
Does the god have a good record of doing what he/she says, because as we know, that Yahweh fella
kept saying his covenant with Israel would last forever, and then it didn't, again and again.
The Better Covenant Bureau says to stay away from that Yahweh guy.

The question reveals more the about questioner than he really wants us to know.
It means his religion is really not about a "relationship" but about a power structure.
A hierarchical formal power structure. Such a male question.

I'm replying to this on my PS4 browser (and writing this with a controller rather than a keyboard), so apologies for not cutting the quoted material down to the relevant parts.

I have never, ever understood the supposed desire of the Christian god having some kind of personal relationship with its creations.  This purported all-knowing, all-powerful being who already presumably knows what we're thinking wants us to be chummy with it?  And it wants us to make the first move?  And if we don't, we're punished to an eternity of torture?

Gee, what a catch.

There's this underlying idea that we owe this thing our love and devotion because we exist in the here and now.  But for me, personally, the notion that a powerful entity purposely created me this broken and flawed, for no tangible benefit, is the opposite of comforting.  And the idea that I have to thank it for this is vile.  

Being born with a pretty hefty physical disability isn't the only component of my disbelief, but it is a part of it.  And any suggestion that I should want to enter some kind of personal relationship with, for all intents and purposes, my cosmic abuser, let alone worship it is supremely offensive.

Thankfully, this creature does not exist, and my condition(s) are the result of some pretty shitty rolls of genetic dice.  But the terrible fiction exists, and it still causes irrevocable harm.

Christianity teaches its followers this idea, that they have a personal relationship with Jesus.   It's nonsense.  All religions people have a relationship with their gods.  That's what religions are all.  The Greeks burned incense and prayed to their gods and asked them for advice and looked for signs in the sky or the rivers or whatever.    But Christians like to think they're super-duper unique and super-duper special because of this ridiculous claim that they have a "personal relationship" with Jesus that no other religion has.  They  use this claim to promote the idea that this makes the Jesus story true and better than any other religious belief.  It's just another annoying aspect of Christian-centric ideas I don't like.

Certain dose of arrogance is to be expected from monotheists*. Also when one god is super-duper god and all others are dismissed as idols or whatever other term is used then arrogance will be even more grating.


*Though how monotheistic christians are with their trinity is matter of some confusion.
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on Earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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#52

On bended knee
Quote:Christianity teaches its followers this idea, that they have a personal relationship with Jesus.   It's nonsense.


Humans are inherently egotistical.  A similar example are the clowns who insist that "aliens" fly trillions of miles just to stick a probe up their assholes.

Sam Harris said it best.


Quote:There is, in fact, no worldview more reprehensible in its arrogance than that of a religious believer: the creator of the universe takes an interest in me, approves of me, loves me, and will reward me after death; my current beliefs, drawn from scripture, will remain the best statement of the truth until the end of the world; everyone who disagrees with me will spend eternity in hell.


Sam Harris - Letter to a Christian Nation
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#53

On bended knee
I would probably bend a knee

If this meany god was dangling a lighting bolt a few inches above my head and had a sarcastic grin
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#54

On bended knee
Others have mentioned something similar but the question is purposely manipulative.  "No" would (allegedly) imply one has personality traits no one likes- self-centered, vain, egotistical, know-it-all, arrogant.  "Yes" is aha, okay, you are open to my proselytizing.
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#55

On bended knee
(08-29-2021, 06:12 PM)Antonio Wrote: I would probably bend a knee

If this meany god was dangling a lighting bolt a few inches above my head and had a sarcastic grin

Actually, if there's lightning around, the safest position is to squat, so you knees will technically *be* bending but also, not technically kneeling   Whistling

And now, for some lightning porn Angel

Show ContentSpoiler:
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#56

On bended knee
(08-29-2021, 04:12 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Christianity teaches its followers this idea, that they have a personal relationship with Jesus...

I have to laugh... this is what it means to have a "relationship" with god [DesiringGod.com]:

Quote:What a relationship with God means is that we are receiving communications from God about himself
both through his word and through history. He comes to us in Jesus Christ, in his teaching, in his cross,
in his apostles, through his word, and he is speaking to us. And his speaking is made vital to us by the
present presence of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us. That's half the relationship. He takes the initiative.


Apparently then, this is some sort of message from Jesus?

[Image: x-w2-1.png]

BTW... I'd have more faith in 'SpongeBob SquarePants' —at least I can see him on TV, and he doesn't speak in Aramaic.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#57

On bended knee
@Minimalist ,
I read most of Heinlein so long ago but I remember that story.
It is always some angle or gimmick with the believers. The frontal assault has failed, so they try and work away around to getting you to see their point of view. It's exhausting!
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#58

On bended knee
Which is why I have found the directly confrontational "put up or shut up" retort works best to cut those assholes off at the knees.  They know that all they have are mealy-mouthed platitudes which will never stand up to scrutiny.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#59

On bended knee
This sort of question also falls under the whole "what if you die, and then you're in heaven and god is real" sort of thing.

I mean yeah, if that was the case, then I'd have to "believe" but the problem is the other side of the question, which is the whole "bending the knee" thing. Just because I believe that he would exist [in this hypothetical situation where I have died and it turns out god is real] does that mean I have to suddenly worship the shit out of him? If so....why? Does this god want that? There are so many extra question to fire back with [Does he WANT me to do that? Even though I might be the by product of his creation.......does that mean I should be greatful to the point of bowing down and washing his feet with my tears? Or could I just be like "thanks mate" and god is all good with that?]

You can go on and on about the whole "reasoning" of the 'why' behind god aparent need of your worship - which to me is the main thing to point out to people. Like yeah, in that hypothetical situation you couldn't argue against god being "real" - but does that mean you need to bend over and let god give you one, just because god is god?

It's backwards.
Make Your Own Future. Make Your Own Past. Its All Right Now. - Barry Allen
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#60

On bended knee
Wow, all this from a question about would you bow to a deity!

A lot of posters have mentioned "no deity" or "not a good deity". I don't expect there is one, so there is no bowing or serious debate about what one would be like (for me)..

BUT, the original premise was IF there was one, would you bow? My answer is "of course"! IF there was one, what choice would you have? Omnificsence (now THERE is a word I don't have to figure out how to spell often and can't now, it seems) is not not something that could be easily ignored. So, if there WAS such a being, I think I would have to accept it!

I doubt that makes me any less an atheist. I consider that there is no evidence of the premised Being whatsoever and the whole idea seems illogical. But IF THERE WAS is an entirely separate question. So, I'll repeat slightly. IF THERE WAS, to some extent of sufficient proof, what would you do? This is not an "IS"; it's a "WHAT IF"...

I know that I would hesitate to say "well, I'll be damned" as lightly as I currently do... LOL!
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#61

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 09:22 AM)Cavebear Wrote: Wow, all this from a question about would you bow to a deity!
...BUT, the original premise was IF there was one, would you bow?  My answer is "of course"!

I would give one curt nod to get his attention then... OK now listen you complete utter bastard what's the story with cystic fibrosis, bone cancer, leukemia etc, etc..
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#62

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 12:15 PM)Inkubus Wrote:
(09-01-2021, 09:22 AM)Cavebear Wrote: Wow, all this from a question about would you bow to a deity!
...BUT, the original premise was IF there was one, would you bow?  My answer is "of course"!

I would give one curt nod to get his attention then... OK now listen you complete utter bastard what's the story with cystic fibrosis, bone cancer, leukemia etc, etc..

And IF it was a deity, there would be deitally unrefutable answers. What part of "deity" am I failing to make clear? Not that I ever want one, but this is a definitional argument I think. IF there is one, you can't exactly argue with it.
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#63

On bended knee
wut
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#64

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 12:35 PM)Cavebear Wrote: And IF it was a deity, there would be deitally unrefutable answers. What part of "deity" am I failing to make clear? Not that I ever want one, but this is a definitional argument I think. IF there is one, you can't exactly argue with it.

I see what you're saying. If there IS a god, then he fits the definition of god, this ultimate being who rules over existence. So, it would assume, being the ultimate guy who makes the rules, he'd have ultimate answers for everything he did. Like, whatever we experience here and any feelings we have about this life wouldn't matter because he would be the most logical, most good thing. I might say right now I want to grab him by the shirt and spit in his face as I demand an explanation for suffering. But if he were real and he were really god, fitting that definition in every way, he'd have a reason that made perfect sense and his godlike logic would be irrefutable.

I guess it is the difference between seeing the idea of god as a God or as just some guy who accidentally spilled paint on a canvas and tried to go back and say "No, it's art. I'm a genius."
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#65

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 12:49 PM)Teddy Wrote:
(09-01-2021, 12:35 PM)Cavebear Wrote: And IF it was a deity, there would be deitally unrefutable answers.  What part of "deity" am I failing to make clear?  Not that I ever want one, but this is a definitional argument I think.  IF there is one, you can't exactly argue with it.

I see what you're saying. If there IS a god, then he fits the definition of god, this ultimate being who rules over existence. So, it would assume, being the ultimate guy who makes the rules, he'd have ultimate answers for everything he did. Like, whatever we experience here and any feelings we have about this life wouldn't matter because he would be the most logical, most good thing. I might say right now I want to grab him by the shirt and spit in his face as I demand an explanation for suffering. But if he were real and he were really god, fitting that definition in every way, he'd have a reason that made perfect sense and his godlike logic would be irrefutable.

I guess it is the difference between seeing the idea of god as a God or as just some guy who accidentally spilled paint on a canvas and tried to go back and say "No, it's art. I'm a genius."

You are close, but still not quite getting it. It is still an IF statement. By definition, a deity would HAVE TO BE RIGHT. Always and perfectly. Or it isn't a deity. WHATEVER it did to us would have to have a reason that maybe we don't understand, but being an actual "deity", it is THE RIGHT THING to do, regardless of what we think?

And I reiterate, I don't think there IS one..
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#66

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 01:17 PM)Cavebear Wrote: You are close, but still not quite getting it. It is still an IF statement. By definition, a deity would HAVE TO BE RIGHT. Always and perfectly. Or it isn't a deity. WHATEVER it did to us would have to have a reason that maybe we don't understand, but being an actual "deity", it is THE RIGHT THING to do, regardless of what we think?

And I reiterate, I don't think there IS one..

The problem is the defining it part. We don't have a context for this "always right and always perfect" thing. In reality, being right is more grey and complex than that. And it doesn't change the fact that in order to be right, in order to fulfill his perfect good, this god had to cause pain, death, and suffering. So, what is a perfect reason for that where my empathy and my weakness as a human no longer matters?

I think also, in order to conceptualize a god that might make sense in reality, atheists lean more towards a definition of an absent creator or a happenstance creator, an alien being that deposited us here(i.e. just a guy who spilled some paint). Because you can't realistically answer the question of "what would you do?" if the thing is this vague concept of undeniable perfection. I don't know. I don't know if it'd be possible for me to still stubbornly argue against perfect. Would I still be me if God is just irrefutably right and screw my emotional baggage upon finding out his abuse was deliberate and not just the universe acting randomly?
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#67

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 01:29 PM)Teddy Wrote:
(09-01-2021, 01:17 PM)Cavebear Wrote: You are close, but still not quite getting it.  It is still an IF statement.  By definition, a deity would HAVE TO BE RIGHT.  Always and perfectly.  Or it isn't a deity.  WHATEVER it did to us would have to have a reason that maybe we don't understand, but being an actual "deity", it is THE RIGHT THING to do, regardless of what we think?  

And I reiterate, I don't think there IS one..

The problem is the defining it part. We don't have a context for this "always right and always perfect" thing. In reality, being right is more grey and complex than that. And it doesn't change the fact that in order to be right, in order to fulfill his perfect good, this god had to cause pain, death, and suffering. So, what is a perfect reason for that where my empathy and my weakness as a human no longer matters?

I think also, in order to conceptualize a god that might make sense in reality, atheists lean more towards a definition of an absent creator or a happenstance creator, an alien being that deposited us here(i.e. just a guy who spilled some paint). Because you can't realistically answer the question of "what would you do?" if the thing is this vague concept of undeniable perfection. I don't know. I don't know if it'd be possible  for me to still stubbornly argue against perfect. Would I still be me if God is just irrefutably right and screw my emotional baggage upon finding out his abuse was deliberate and not just the universe acting randomly?

A deity wouldn't just be someome smarter than me or even some super-advanced alien intelligence. It would (to be a deity) be all-powerful, omniscient, omnipresent, universe-creator, and "perfect" beyond "just seeing the falling sparrow" but even the least microbe and even quark particles. If we are discussing anything less than that, it is not a "deity".

So you can't argue with that entity, spit in "its" face, or make demands. That's the real problem.

I don't "lean" towards an "absent or happenstance creator". That would still be a deity.
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#68

On bended knee
Any "if" statement is simply inapplicable in this instance.  To use it means one would
have to accept the possibility of the real-life existence of supernatural entities, and
no atheist I know would agree to that.

One could  say if bananas were purple would you still eat them.  But that doesn't
rely on religious woo.  It's a perfectly logical question.

Otherworldly entities—such as devils or angels or faeries—just do not exist either, obviously.
There's no iffing or butting or maybe-ing in those cases, so why should there be with gods?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#69

On bended knee
@Cavebear

I don't know. I still see the problem as not being able to define perfect, so, not having context for what you could do. We can't define the limitations of our behavior and our emotional response to this being until we define the parameters of perfection in a reality sense that can be touched and observed and tested.

It's a useless direction to take the conversation of answering "what would you do?" Whatever I was told, I guess.
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#70

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 02:09 PM)SYZ Wrote: Any "if" statement is simply inapplicable in this instance.  To use it means one would
have to accept the possibility of the real-life existence of supernatural entities, and
no atheist I know would agree to that.

One could  say if bananas were purple would you still eat them.  But that doesn't
rely on religious woo.  It's a perfectly logical question.

Otherworldly entities—such as devils or angels or faeries—just do not exist either, obviously.
There's no iffing or butting or maybe-ing in those cases, so why should there be with gods?

Purple bananas are irrelevant. The question is "IF", so no real logic of experience applies. A deity would be beyond our comprehension, so IF is all that we can consider. And IF means that the "devils or angels or faeries" you mention are possible. Note "possible" for an IF statement.

Of course I don't think there are "devils or angels or faeries". This is about what a deity would have to be to be one.
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#71

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 02:15 PM)Teddy Wrote: @Cavebear

I don't know. I still see the problem as not being able to define perfect, so, not having context for what you could do. We can't define the limitations of our behavior and our emotional response to this being until we define the parameters of perfection in a reality sense that can be touched and observed and tested.

It's a useless direction to take the conversation of answering "what would you do?" Whatever I was told, I guess.

We don't have to define "perfect". Indeed, we probably can't even imagine what it is. "Perfect" would be whatever a deity decided it was. If we knew "perfect", we would BE a Deity.

Does no one understand "IF"?
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#72

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 02:41 PM)Cavebear Wrote: Does no one understand "IF"?

A lot of people here don't.
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#73

On bended knee
By the way, the guy I was debating on reddit started pulling out quotes from the Bible which don't sway me in the least.  I pointed out that the Bible claims a god exists, it is not evidence a god exists so quoting the Bible is a useless and meaningless endevor plus you can interpret Bible passages however you want.  I pointed out, as I always do, that Bible thumpers need evidence of the magical stories from unbiases, contemporary sources outside of the Bible  and none have ever been found.  He then went further into Bible mode, pointing to the text just like this funny emoji guy does...... 

But it says here........    Paper   

And I retierated my stance, saying that the Hindu Red Vedas also claims the same thing and so does the Quran and he did this again...


But it says here!....... Paper


And then I had to go and tell him about circular reasoning fallacies and he was really pissed at me and I could tell he was running out of patience and doing this...

Toetap



Anyway, he hasn't gotten back to me for almost 3 days.  I think when the Bible quotes didn't work on me he didn't know what else to do.
                                                         T4618
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#74

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 03:08 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: By the way, the guy I was debating on reddit started pulling out quotes from the Bible which don't sway me in the least.  I pointed out that the Bible claims a god exists, it is not evidence a god exists so quoting the Bible is a useless and meaningless endevor plus you can interpret Bible passages however you want.  I pointed out, as I always do, that Bible thumpers need evidence of the magical stories from unbiases, contemporary sources outside of the Bible  and none have ever been found.  He then went further into Bible mode, pointing to the text just like this funny emoji guy does...... 

But it says here........    Paper   

And I retierated my stance, saying that the Hindu Red Vedas also claims the same thing and so does the Quran and he did this again...


But it says here!....... Paper


And then I had to go and tell him about circular reasoning fallacies and he was really pissed at me and I could tell he was running out of patience and doing this...

Toetap



Anyway, he hasn't gotten back to me for almost 3 days.  I think when the Bible quotes didn't work on me he didn't know what else to do.

Smiling. I see that a LOT. I once pointed out to some theist that just because Disney shows Mickey Mouse, it doesn't mean he is real. And that quoting the bible as a source of proving the bible contents are real is the same. He didn't think it was the same. He just said the bible was REAL. You can't fix stupid...
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#75

On bended knee
(09-01-2021, 02:58 PM)Percie Wrote:
(09-01-2021, 02:41 PM)Cavebear Wrote: Does no one understand "IF"?

A lot of people here don't.

Just as a lot of people here think you're a delusional arsewipe LOL.
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