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On bended knee
#26

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 03:28 AM)Fireball Wrote:
(08-28-2021, 02:41 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(08-28-2021, 02:22 AM)KevinM1 Wrote: Any entity that demands worship for purported salvation is not an entity that deserves worship.

But what if it HAS the power of salvation?

Fuck that. Once I die, I want to stay dead. Don't forget that that "salvation" is living in some celestial city FOREVER. Unless something better comes along, I'd prefer nonexistence. I'm reminded of the Heinlein story, "Time Enough for Love". The guy wants to die, because there is nothing new to be had, and he's lived 2k years and has pretty much seen it all, but is looking for something new. If you haven't read it, I won't spoil it for you. No god in that story, though.

Quote:Chapter 10, "The Dream", is an account of a modernized version of heaven, where even Hitler is found. It is individualised for each person and the occupants eventually "die".

A History of the World in 10½ Chapters
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#27

On bended knee
Would I bow down? Nope. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#28

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 03:28 AM)Fireball Wrote:
(08-28-2021, 02:41 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(08-28-2021, 02:22 AM)KevinM1 Wrote: Any entity that demands worship for purported salvation is not an entity that deserves worship.

But what if it HAS the power of salvation?

Fuck that. Once I die, I want to stay dead. Don't forget that that "salvation" is living in some celestial city FOREVER. Unless something better comes along, I'd prefer nonexistence. I'm reminded of the Heinlein story, "Time Enough for Love". The guy wants to die, because there is nothing new to be had, and he's lived 2k years and has pretty much seen it all, but is looking for something new. If you haven't read it, I won't spoil it for you. No god in that story, though.

Two surprises for you.

First, "afterlife" (and I'm not suggesting it exists) would sort of require a lasting pleasure of continuation, in theory.

Second, I'm a Heinlein fan from WAY BACK. I have 60' of sci-fi books and he takes up a couple feet of that. Not that I have first edition hardbacks, but I have some REALLY old paperbacks held together with rubber bands from being read so often. Same with Asimov, Van Vogt, Niven, Herbert, Dick, Clarke, Chalker, Bradbury, Le Guin, etc. I like the Wild Card series. I have "Ace Doubles" from the 60s. I don't much read anymore; I just "remember".

I have a cat named Lapis Lazuli and the next one will be named Lorelei Lee. Sadly, they won't be twins or clones, but I like the names.

I have no god-belief. I was an atheist from birth but only understood what that meant around age 12. I've stayed with it ever since.

Any further questions are welcome...
I am tying notes to balloons and tumble-weeds and sending them out to the world. Where they are found, I do not know...
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#29

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 11:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: There's a lot of different flavors of Americans. Stop broad-brushing us, okay?

You know what? Get over yourself. And over yourselves. People can – and the way you guys are acting in the world, will – make comments about Americans and more often than not they will be valid.

Where exactly did I say it was all Americans (and spare me the "semantic" onanism)? Yes, it is absolutely my personal experience that Americans *in general* (hint: that has never meant every single one of them) seem more obsessed/fascinated with concepts (I did not even say any monarchy in particular) such as queens and kings and princesses and all sorts of outdated social contracts (quite possibly because they do not actually have them in their history). NOT in real life, as my mention of my books might have been a clue to those not blinded by a usual knee jerk “but my Murica, do not badmouth my Murica”, which is laughably and childishly common among several members here), than say, people in Europe. Much like Americans in general are much, MUCH more religious that the populations of most European countries. Or is this too, an affront to ‘Murica?

Or should I just go hang? Again Deadpan Coffee Drinker

@Cavebear I translate the books. This is my job.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#30

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 08:51 AM)Vera Wrote:
(08-27-2021, 11:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: There's a lot of different flavors of Americans. Stop broad-brushing us, okay?

You know what? Get over yourself. And over yourselves. People can – and they way you guys are acting in the world, will – make comments about Americans and more often than not they will be valid.

Where exactly did I say it was all Americans (and spare me the "semantic" onanism)? Yes, it is absolutely my personal experience that Americans *in general* (hint: that has never meant every single one of them) seem more obsessed/fascinated with concepts (I did not even say any monarchy in particular) such as queens and kings and princesses and all sorts of outdated social contracts (quite possibly because they do not actually have them in their history). NOT in real life, as my mention of my books might have been a clue to those not blinded by a usual knee jerk “but my Murica, do not badmouth my Murica”, which is laughably and childishly common among several members here), than say, people in Europe. Much like Americans in general are much, MUCH more religious that the populations of most European countries. Or is this too, an affront to ‘Murica?

Or should I just go hang? Again Deadpan Coffee Drinker

@Cavebear I translate the books. This is my job.

No, you shouldn't just go hang. There is too much "My Murrica" and too little "America of old" these days.

You translate sci-fi? Cool. I bet that can be tricky given cultural assumptions of societies and who is a hero.
I am tying notes to balloons and tumble-weeds and sending them out to the world. Where they are found, I do not know...
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#31

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 09:43 AM)Cavebear Wrote: No, you shouldn't just go hang.  There is too much "My Murrica" and too little "America of old" these days.

You translate sci-fi?  Cool.  I bet that can be tricky given cultural assumptions of societies and who is a hero.

Sadly, no, I translate fantasy (and/or romance). Even trickier because the "heroes" and the ideas are simplistic and infantile. Easier to translate than "proper" literature though - requires much less thought.

The hanging comment was something I got told here by this very same poster, I think it was something to do with mac and cheese though the knee-jerk patriots tend to get their knickers in a twist over everything so might be conflating two separate incidents. For bonus points - it was at a time I was struggling with my father's cancer diagnosis and a couple of other nasty things, so a really horrible period in my life. But it was actually a great thing - cured me (together with a couple of other things) of any delusions I might have been under that this is a community of "friends" or the online version of a "friend" anyway. Which is why it's so much easier to ignore all the crap and self-righteous posturing here and just talk about what I find interesting when I need to kill time (or don't feel like working).
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#32

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 08:17 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(08-27-2021, 07:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote: The question is a thinly-disguised variant of Pascal's Wager. 

My answer would be "let your god prove himself to be what you claim and we'll talk.  Fictional tyrants are of no interest to me."



I think it's the ultimate test question Christians throw out at atheists.   I don't know how many times I've read Christians asking this question on the internet.  They specifically want you to call their god a "tyrant" or a "dictator" and that way they can claim you hate god therefore he must exist and you're just wanting to sin.    So I won't even allow "hate" as part of my argument. 

 They want to know if you'll submit and humble yourself to their god the same way they have because essentially the relationship with their god is a mascoistic sort of Stockholm Syndrome situation with the power source exercising both love and punishment.  I think Christians want to validate this sick relationship by asking that hypothetical question.

What I hate about it is the Christians I know frame it as if humility is a virtue. It took me a bit to get over this idea, to convince myself that my skepticism and my doubts were a healthy thing. I have heard this "would you bow" thing twisted into, "you think you know everything/more/better than God" and "you're so prideful, trusting to your own understanding."

So, aside from the actual literal aspect of God existing and whether or not it deserves my regard or whether or not it would be realistically feasible for me to rebel or resist (it could do anything, right? Compel me then. My agency and my faith was so important, yet the only way I'd drop to my knees is through exertion of force and coercion). It's the toxic manipulation in the question itself, the holding up of humility, obedience, and innocence as the most treasured virtues, heavily implying that if you trust your own mind, if you listen to yourself, even just to stubbornly say, "I don't know" then you have made a mistake.
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#33

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 06:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: This hypothetical question is often asked of atheists by Christians and I bet it pisses you off as much as it pisses me off. 

"Would you bow down and bend your knee to a powerful god?" ...
 

It's an absurd non-question lacking any 21st century logic.  It'd be like me asking a religionist
if he or she would groom, feed, water, and house a unicorn.

My response?

"Please don't slam the door on your way out".      Shake
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#34

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 08:51 AM)Vera Wrote:
(08-27-2021, 11:07 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: There's a lot of different flavors of Americans. Stop broad-brushing us, okay?

You know what? Get over yourself. And over yourselves.

Bigotry is the hallmark of a simple mind.

That would be you.

I am an individual and insist on being treated as one.

Now fuck off.
Freedom isn't free.
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#35

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 01:26 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: Proof would have to be beyond anything I can currently image.


I have my own test for such a "god" but the ladies would be offended.

Nah - probably just laugh, as usual. Shy
________________________________________________
A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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#36

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 06:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: This hypothetical question is often asked of atheists by Christians and I bet it pisses you off as much as it pisses me off. 

"Would you bow down and bend your knee to a powerful god?"  

 I'm in a discussion with a christian on reddit over this very question.  What this question is REALLY asking is if you'd prostrate and humble yourself to a god and show how small, powerless and insiginificant you are.  It's a test question that establishes a sadomasochistic relationship with a powerful source.  They essentially want to humiliate you into submission.

First, there's a big problem.   They never establish whether their god exists so the question doesn't apply to reality.  I deal with reality.  They also never seem to ask if I would bend my knee to Zeus or Apollo or the American Indian god Wahanda.  No,  it's always the Biblical god.  So their question is disengenuous and Christian-centric from the get-go. 

My answer to this guy is that his question ("would you bend your knee to god?") is similar to someone asking me if I would make clothing items for an invisible garden Gnome.   Being a seamstress/costume designer by trade I'd need specific measurements.  I'd need his inseam, waist, shirt size and several other details.  But more importantly,  I'm not going to waste my time making small clothing items if this Gnome doesn't exist.  And if someone is testing my character just to see if I'd go to all the trouble of tailoring an entire mini costume for an invisible Gnome, then that person is sadistic from the word go.    

Any thoughts on my reply?

In short it's an excellent reply and I agree with you 100%.
For me to start bowing or kneeling I'd need to know two things; firstly I would need to know definativly and unequivocally that this God exists, secondly I would need to know something about the character of the deity, if it's capricious malevolent narcissistic and cruel (like the god of the Bible) I'd definitely bow down if for no other reason than to avoid giving him an excuse to smite my arse and send me directly to hell for an eternity of torment.
 On the other hand if he's a nice deity he probably wouldn't expect me to bow down in which case I'd invite him round for a cup of tea a chocolate hob nob and a chat.
I regard any form of bowing scraping fawning as serf like behaviour that's a direct and personal affront to my human dignity and I won't do it for imaginary gods, royalty, BLM, Antifa extinction rebellion or any other whackadoodle with a messiah complex, its just not happening.
Justaminute   The whole point of having cake is to eat it! 
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#37

On bended knee
Back to the original question, "would you bow down to god?"   What Christians are really asking is; are you obedient to their god. The inference is that if you aren't you're a lesser person.  You're rebelous.  You're no better than satan. It assumes a superiority over atheists.   You're rejecting what they fully accept.  The question is so smug and so self satisifying and creates an "us vs. you" gulf between Christians and non believers.  Of all the things that Christians ask that damned stupid question pisses me off more than most of their other claims.   What a bunch of jerks!
                                                         T4618
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#38

On bended knee
This ^^^

But also, an entity having power does not mean it should be worshipped, especially if it demands it. I don't think anything is worthy of worship, and anything claiming it must be makes me question its motives.

It's why I can never see eye-to-eye with those who say it is belief that matters, not actions.

EDIT: Whoops, apparently I was responding to something on page 1. D'oh. I still stand by what I wrote, even if the sentiment isn't exactly original
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#39

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 02:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Back to the original question, "would you bow down to god?"   What Christians are really asking is; are you obedient to their god. The inference is that if you aren't you're a lesser person.  You're rebelous.  You're no better than satan. It assumes a superiority over atheists.   You're rejecting what they fully accept.  The question is so smug and so self satisifying and creates an "us vs. you" gulf between Christians and non believers.  Of all the things that Christians ask that damned stupid question pisses me off more than most of their other claims.   What a bunch of jerks!

I suspect the question is "deliberately" designed to do what you describe, after all Christians and Christianity thrive on marginalising and disenfranchising different groups, they've been doing it for centuries
Justaminute   The whole point of having cake is to eat it! 
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#40

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 03:10 PM)adey67 Wrote:
(08-28-2021, 02:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Back to the original question, "would you bow down to god?"   What Christians are really asking is; are you obedient to their god. The inference is that if you aren't you're a lesser person.  You're rebelous.  You're no better than satan. It assumes a superiority over atheists.   You're rejecting what they fully accept.  The question is so smug and so self satisifying and creates an "us vs. you" gulf between Christians and non believers.  Of all the things that Christians ask that damned stupid question pisses me off more than most of their other claims.   What a bunch of jerks!

I suspect the question is "deliberately" designed to do what you describe, after all Christians and Christianity thrive on marginalising and disenfranchising different groups, they've been doing it for centuries

...and claiming that they are the ones being persecuted, to boot.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#41

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 02:36 PM)adey67 Wrote: In short it's an excellent reply and I agree with you 100%.
For me to start bowing or kneeling I'd need to know two things; firstly I would need to know definativly and unequivocally that this God exists, secondly I would need to know something about the character of the deity, if it's capricious malevolent narcissistic and cruel (like the god of the Bible) I'd definitely bow down if for no other reason than to avoid giving him an excuse to smite my arse and send me directly to hell for an eternity of torment.
 On the other hand if he's a nice deity he probably wouldn't expect me to bow down in which case I'd invite him round for a cup of tea a chocolate hob nob and a chat.
I regard any form of bowing scraping fawning as serf like behaviour that's a direct and personal affront to my human dignity and I won't do it for imaginary gods, royalty, BLM, Antifa extinction rebellion or any other whackadoodle with a messiah complex, its just not happening.

Thank you.  I actually used some of your post (some of it is word for word) to reply to this fundimentalist.  I hope you don't mind.   Modest

Here's what I wrote:

Quote: You're question isnt a question. It's a self satisifying question Christians constantly ask non believers which sets up an imprenetrable gulf between Christians and others. Perhaps you don't really want to know if I'd bow down to a god. Perhaps you want to feel superior and justify your worldview. Perhaps the question you are asking has an ulterior motive. Only you would know that.


If you really, truly and honestly wanted to ask me this question you'd give me detailed information on this deity. I would need to know definitively and unequivocally that this god exists. Secondly, I'd need to know the character of this deity if it did exist. You won't give me incontrovertable, unbiased evidence of this god, perhaps because you can't.

If you were asked to blindly bow down to a political leader without any knowledge of the person or even if they existed, would you prostrate yourself before them? Would you live your life obediently, bowing and scraping and serving them without question? This is exactly what you're asking me and you're none too happy that I won't answer the question without any further information.

Christians ask this question as a sort of litmus test. Christians have blindly bowed down to their god without question. Will you? Unfortunately, as I said previously, your question creates a wide gulf between Christians and non believers and it serves no purpose to ask the question.
                                                         T4618
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#42

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 04:39 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(08-28-2021, 02:36 PM)adey67 Wrote: In short it's an excellent reply and I agree with you 100%.
For me to start bowing or kneeling I'd need to know two things; firstly I would need to know definativly and unequivocally that this God exists, secondly I would need to know something about the character of the deity, if it's capricious malevolent narcissistic and cruel (like the god of the Bible) I'd definitely bow down if for no other reason than to avoid giving him an excuse to smite my arse and send me directly to hell for an eternity of torment.
 On the other hand if he's a nice deity he probably wouldn't expect me to bow down in which case I'd invite him round for a cup of tea a chocolate hob nob and a chat.
I regard any form of bowing scraping fawning as serf like behaviour that's a direct and personal affront to my human dignity and I won't do it for imaginary gods, royalty, BLM, Antifa extinction rebellion or any other whackadoodle with a messiah complex, its just not happening.

Thank you.  I actually used some of your post (some of it is word for word) to reply to this fundimentalist.  I hope you don't mind.   Modest

Here's what I wrote:

Quote: You're question isnt a question. It's a self satisifying question Christians constantly ask non believers which sets up an imprenetrable gulf between Christians and others. Perhaps you don't really want to know if I'd bow down to a god. Perhaps you want to feel superior and justify your worldview. Perhaps the question you are asking has an ulterior motive. Only you would know that.


If you really, truly and honestly wanted to ask me this question you'd give me detailed information on this deity. I would need to know definitively and unequivocally that this god exists. Secondly, I'd need to know the character of this deity if it did exist. You won't give me incontrovertable, unbiased evidence of this god, perhaps because you can't.

If you were asked to blindly bow down to a political leader without any knowledge of the person or even if they existed, would you prostrate yourself before them? Would you live your life obediently, bowing and scraping and serving them without question? This is exactly what you're asking me and you're none too happy that I won't answer the question without any further information.

Christians ask this question as a sort of litmus test. Christians have blindly bowed down to their god without question. Will you? Unfortunately, as I said previously, your question creates a wide gulf between Christians and non believers and it serves no purpose to ask the question.

I'm very flattered tbh, especially considering that your critical thinking, knowledge and intellect are definitely superior to mine.
Justaminute   The whole point of having cake is to eat it! 
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#43

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 02:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Back to the original question, "would you bow down to god?"   What Christians are really asking is; are you obedient to their god. The inference is that if you aren't you're a lesser person.  You're rebelous.  You're no better than satan. It assumes a superiority over atheists.   You're rejecting what they fully accept.  The question is so smug and so self satisifying and creates an "us vs. you" gulf between Christians and non believers.  Of all the things that Christians ask that damned stupid question pisses me off more than most of their other claims.   What a bunch of jerks!

Actually to be honest, it depends.
Depends on the *covenant* the god is offering, and what's in it for me.
Do I get to be "chosen" ? Do I get the stand up on any hill and pick my "promised land" ?
Does the god have a good record of doing what he/she says, because as we know, that Yahweh fella
kept saying his covenant with Israel would last forever, and then it didn't, again and again.
The Better Covenant Bureau says to stay away from that Yahweh guy.

The question reveals more the about questioner than he really wants us to know.
It means his religion is really not about a "relationship" but about a power structure.
A hierarchical formal power structure. Such a male question.
I fart in your general direction.  Angel
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#44

On bended knee
(08-29-2021, 01:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(08-28-2021, 02:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Back to the original question, "would you bow down to god?"   What Christians are really asking is; are you obedient to their god. The inference is that if you aren't you're a lesser person.  You're rebelous.  You're no better than satan. It assumes a superiority over atheists.   You're rejecting what they fully accept.  The question is so smug and so self satisifying and creates an "us vs. you" gulf between Christians and non believers.  Of all the things that Christians ask that damned stupid question pisses me off more than most of their other claims.   What a bunch of jerks!

Actually to be honest, it depends.
Depends on the *covenant* the god is offering, and what's in it for me.
Do I get to be "chosen" ? Do I get the stand up on any hill and pick my "promised land" ?
Does the god have a good record of doing what he/she says, because as we know, that Yahweh fella
kept saying his covenant with Israel would last forever, and then it didn't, again and again.
The Better Covenant Bureau says to stay away from that Yahweh guy.

The question reveals more the about questioner than he really wants us to know.
It means his religion is really not about a "relationship" but about a power structure.
A hierarchical formal power structure. Such a male question.

Aww, ta heck with a silly covenant, Bucky.   This guy needs to provide evidence his god exists before I bend my knee or grovel at some silly gods feet, otherwise I'm groveling to invisible nothingness for no reason whatsoever.  

In the last post he started quoting the Bible and I don't give two hoots what the bible says since it's a book of claims and not evidence.  I told him that too.  Let's see how he responds to that comment.  LOL  I never argue Bible text and it's meaning because it can be interpreted anyway you want and the debate goes nowhere.  I want evidence outside of the Bible for any of it's claims and maybe after any of those clames have been established (which they never have) we might start discussing bible text.

I imagine he won't be too happy with my last post but I'm always nice and friendly with these religious crazies which drives them totally nuts.  They'd rather have a mean-ass, angry atheist to chew on because it valitates their perception of us. They don't know what the hell to do with a pleasant, friendly atheist.    Sun    LOL!
                                                         T4618
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#45

On bended knee
Quote:The inference is that if you aren't you're a lesser person.  You're rebelous.  You're no better than satan.

But Satan is way cooler than this jesus asshole.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#46

On bended knee
(08-29-2021, 02:15 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:The inference is that if you aren't you're a lesser person.  You're rebelous.  You're no better than satan.

But Satan is way cooler than this jesus asshole.

AHEM. Since Satan doesn't exist, you are certainly better than nothing.  Winking
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#47

On bended knee
(08-29-2021, 02:15 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:The inference is that if you aren't you're a lesser person.  You're rebelous.  You're no better than satan.

But Satan is way cooler than this jesus asshole.

Thank God for Satan!
Don't mistake me for those nice folks from Give-A-Shit county.
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#48

On bended knee
(08-29-2021, 01:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(08-28-2021, 02:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Back to the original question, "would you bow down to god?"   What Christians are really asking is; are you obedient to their god. The inference is that if you aren't you're a lesser person.  You're rebelous.  You're no better than satan. It assumes a superiority over atheists.   You're rejecting what they fully accept.  The question is so smug and so self satisifying and creates an "us vs. you" gulf between Christians and non believers.  Of all the things that Christians ask that damned stupid question pisses me off more than most of their other claims.   What a bunch of jerks!

Actually to be honest, it depends.
Depends on the *covenant* the god is offering, and what's in it for me.
Do I get to be "chosen" ? Do I get the stand up on any hill and pick my "promised land" ?
Does the god have a good record of doing what he/she says, because as we know, that Yahweh fella
kept saying his covenant with Israel would last forever, and then it didn't, again and again.
The Better Covenant Bureau says to stay away from that Yahweh guy.

The question reveals more the about questioner than he really wants us to know.
It means his religion is really not about a "relationship" but about a power structure.
A hierarchical formal power structure. Such a male question.

I'm replying to this on my PS4 browser (and writing this with a controller rather than a keyboard), so apologies for not cutting the quoted material down to the relevant parts.

I have never, ever understood the supposed desire of the Christian god having some kind of personal relationship with its creations. This purported all-knowing, all-powerful being who already presumably knows what we're thinking wants us to be chummy with it? And it wants us to make the first move? And if we don't, we're punished to an eternity of torture?

Gee, what a catch.

There's this underlying idea that we owe this thing our love and devotion because we exist in the here and now. But for me, personally, the notion that a powerful entity purposely created me this broken and flawed, for no tangible benefit, is the opposite of comforting. And the idea that I have to thank it for this is vile.

Being born with a pretty hefty physical disability isn't the only component of my disbelief, but it is a part of it. And any suggestion that I should want to enter some kind of personal relationship with, for all intents and purposes, my cosmic abuser, let alone worship it is supremely offensive.

Thankfully, this creature does not exist, and my condition(s) are the result of some pretty shitty rolls of genetic dice. But the terrible fiction exists, and it still causes irrevocable harm.
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#49

On bended knee
If I were  asked, by a theist, "Would you bow down and bend your knee to a powerful god?"  the
very first thing I'd say, politely of course, would be "I'm an atheist, so there's no point in asking me".

I've long ago given up debating about gods, and all the rest of their garbage dogmas and absurd beliefs
with religionists.  It's similar to discussing clairvoyancy or telepathic projection, or divination or reicarnation
with one of those woo-meister types.  A total waste of time.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#50

On bended knee
(08-29-2021, 05:01 AM)KevinM1 Wrote:
(08-29-2021, 01:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(08-28-2021, 02:54 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Back to the original question, "would you bow down to god?"   What Christians are really asking is; are you obedient to their god. The inference is that if you aren't you're a lesser person.  You're rebelous.  You're no better than satan. It assumes a superiority over atheists.   You're rejecting what they fully accept.  The question is so smug and so self satisifying and creates an "us vs. you" gulf between Christians and non believers.  Of all the things that Christians ask that damned stupid question pisses me off more than most of their other claims.   What a bunch of jerks!

Actually to be honest, it depends.
Depends on the *covenant* the god is offering, and what's in it for me.
Do I get to be "chosen" ? Do I get the stand up on any hill and pick my "promised land" ?
Does the god have a good record of doing what he/she says, because as we know, that Yahweh fella
kept saying his covenant with Israel would last forever, and then it didn't, again and again.
The Better Covenant Bureau says to stay away from that Yahweh guy.

The question reveals more the about questioner than he really wants us to know.
It means his religion is really not about a "relationship" but about a power structure.
A hierarchical formal power structure. Such a male question.

I'm replying to this on my PS4 browser (and writing this with a controller rather than a keyboard), so apologies for not cutting the quoted material down to the relevant parts.

I have never, ever understood the supposed desire of the Christian god having some kind of personal relationship with its creations.  This purported all-knowing, all-powerful being who already presumably knows what we're thinking wants us to be chummy with it?  And it wants us to make the first move?  And if we don't, we're punished to an eternity of torture?

Gee, what a catch.

There's this underlying idea that we owe this thing our love and devotion because we exist in the here and now.  But for me, personally, the notion that a powerful entity purposely created me this broken and flawed, for no tangible benefit, is the opposite of comforting.  And the idea that I have to thank it for this is vile.  

Being born with a pretty hefty physical disability isn't the only component of my disbelief, but it is a part of it.  And any suggestion that I should want to enter some kind of personal relationship with, for all intents and purposes, my cosmic abuser, let alone worship it is supremely offensive.

Thankfully, this creature does not exist, and my condition(s) are the result of some pretty shitty rolls of genetic dice.  But the terrible fiction exists, and it still causes irrevocable harm.

Christianity teaches its followers this idea, that they have a personal relationship with Jesus.   It's nonsense.  All religions people have a relationship with their gods.  That's what religions are all.  The Greeks burned incense and prayed to their gods and asked them for advice and looked for signs in the sky or the rivers or whatever.    But Christians like to think they're super-duper unique and super-duper special because of this ridiculous claim that they have a "personal relationship" with Jesus that no other religion has.  They  use this claim to promote the idea that this makes the Jesus story true and better than any other religious belief.  It's just another annoying aspect of Christian-centric ideas I don't like.
                                                         T4618
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