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On bended knee
#1

On bended knee
This hypothetical question is often asked of atheists by Christians and I bet it pisses you off as much as it pisses me off. 

"Would you bow down and bend your knee to a powerful god?"  

 I'm in a discussion with a christian on reddit over this very question.  What this question is REALLY asking is if you'd prostrate and humble yourself to a god and show how small, powerless and insiginificant you are.  It's a test question that establishes a sadomasochistic relationship with a powerful source.  They essentially want to humiliate you into submission.

First, there's a big problem.   They never establish whether their god exists so the question doesn't apply to reality.  I deal with reality.  They also never seem to ask if I would bend my knee to Zeus or Apollo or the American Indian god Wahanda.  No,  it's always the Biblical god.  So their question is disengenuous and Christian-centric from the get-go. 

My answer to this guy is that his question ("would you bend your knee to god?") is similar to someone asking me if I would make clothing items for an invisible garden Gnome.   Being a seamstress/costume designer by trade I'd need specific measurements.  I'd need his inseam, waist, shirt size and several other details.  But more importantly,  I'm not going to waste my time making small clothing items if this Gnome doesn't exist.  And if someone is testing my character just to see if I'd go to all the trouble of tailoring an entire mini costume for an invisible Gnome, then that person is sadistic from the word go.    

Any thoughts on my reply?
                                                         T4618
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#2

On bended knee
As soon as god picks the corn out of my shit, maybe we'll talk!
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#3

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 06:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: This hypothetical question is often asked of atheists by Christians and I bet it pisses you off as much as it pisses me off. 

"Would you bow down and bend your knee to a powerful god?"  

 I'm in a discussion with a christian on reddit over this very question.  What this question is REALLY asking is if you'd prostrate and humble yourself to a god and show how small, powerless and insiginificant you are.  It's a test question that establishes a sadomasochistic relationship with a powerful source.  They essentially want to humiliate you into submission.

First, there's a big problem.   They never establish whether their god exists so the question doesn't apply to reality.  I deal with reality.  They also never seem to ask if I would bend my knee to Zeus or Apollo or the American Indian god Wahanda.  No,  it's always the Biblical god.  So their question is disengenuous and Christian-centric from the get-go. 

My answer to this guy is that his question ("would you bend your knee to god?") is similar to someone asking me if I would make clothing items for an invisible garden Gnome.   Being a seamstress/costume designer by trade I'd need specific measurements.  I'd need his inseam, waist, shirt size and several other details.  But more importantly,  I'm not going to waste my time making small clothing items if this Gnome doesn't exist.  And if someone is testing my character just to see if I'd go to all the trouble of tailoring an entire mini costume for an invisible Gnome is sadistic from the word go.    

Any thoughts on my reply?

It's no different than asking if one would bend knee to a dictator. That aside it is idiotic question as answer will be never put to test; any negative answer can be dismissed as bravado and positive one as needless conformity.
The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on Earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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#4

On bended knee
The question is a thinly-disguised variant of Pascal's Wager. 

My answer would be "let your god prove himself to be what you claim and we'll talk.  Fictional tyrants are of no interest to me."
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#5

On bended knee
My answer would be along the lines of "I really don't know how I'd react, and I don't expect to ever be in a situation like that, so it's pointless to answer."
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#6

On bended knee
Um no.
If the god in question really is the creator, then it made us precisely as we are.
In light of that, both the deity and we an be proud of exactly who and what we are.
Hold your head high, I say, and bend the knee before no one.
A deity that needs or wants *worship* is pretty insecure.
If we were created to worship his god, his god needs therapy.

"Oh hello Almighty God, welcome to the Deity Therapy Center.
Sorry to hear that. No one is worshipping today ? And how does that make you feel ?"
Oh angry ... really, like maybe you need to flood something ?.
I fart in your general direction.  Angel
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#7

On bended knee
Bible God is beneath what I consider to be a moral being. He is not worthy of worship or respect, even if he did exist.
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
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#8

On bended knee
[Image: religion-zeus-gods-afterlife-classicist-...48_low.jpg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#9

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 07:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote: The question is a thinly-disguised variant of Pascal's Wager. 

My answer would be "let your god prove himself to be what you claim and we'll talk.  Fictional tyrants are of no interest to me."



I think it's the ultimate test question Christians throw out at atheists.   I don't know how many times I've read Christians asking this question on the internet.  They specifically want you to call their god a "tyrant" or a "dictator" and that way they can claim you hate god therefore he must exist and you're just wanting to sin.    So I won't even allow "hate" as part of my argument. 

 They want to know if you'll submit and humble yourself to their god the same way they have because essentially the relationship with their god is a mascoistic sort of Stockholm Syndrome situation with the power source exercising both love and punishment.  I think Christians want to validate this sick relationship by asking that hypothetical question.
                                                         T4618
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#10

On bended knee
I'll probably never find myself in the presence of the QoE, but I wouldn't bow to her, either.
If you get to thinking you’re a person of some influence, try ordering somebody else’s dog around.
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#11

On bended knee
Gosh, I was hoping you were proposing marriage.

As for any god, I'll be unapologetic about both my skepticism and my efforts to do right, if there's any afterlife where I'm called to answer.
Freedom isn't free.
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#12

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 08:17 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(08-27-2021, 07:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote: The question is a thinly-disguised variant of Pascal's Wager. 

My answer would be "let your god prove himself to be what you claim and we'll talk.  Fictional tyrants are of no interest to me."



I think it's the ultimate test question Christians throw out at atheists.   I don't know how many times I've read Christians asking this question on the internet.  They specifically want you to call their god a "tyrant" or a "dictator" and that way they can claim you hate god therefore he must exist and you're just wanting to sin.    So I won't even allow "hate" as part of my argument. 

 They want to know if you'll submit and humble yourself to their god the same way they have because essentially the relationship with their god is a mascoistic sort of Stockholm Syndrome situation with the power source exercising both love and punishment.  I think Christians want to validate this sick relationship by asking that hypothetical question.


See.  I do hate god...or rather the concept of god.  But its minor compared to the contempt I feel for morons who believe in such total shit.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#13

On bended knee
This whole "worshipping" thing has always been an enigma to me. Reminds me of the days of kings and queens, where you had to subjugate yourself if you wanted to live and prosper.

Come to think of it, that's still the case today - just look at the republican party and trump.
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
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#14

On bended knee
Quote: All that is necessary, as it seems to me, to convince any reasonable person that the Bible is simply and purely of human invention - of barbarian invention - is to read it. Read it as you would any other book; think of it as you would of any other; get the bandage of reverence from your eyes; drive from your heart the phantom of fear; push from the throne of your brain the cowled form of superstition - then read the Holy Bible, and you will be amazed that you ever, for one moment, supposed a being of infinite wisdom, goodness and purity, to be the author of such ignorance and of such atrocity.

Robert Green Ingersoll
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#15

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 09:31 PM)Dom Wrote: This whole "worshipping" thing has always been an enigma to me. Reminds me of the days of kings and queens, where you had to subjugate yourself if you wanted to live and prosper.

Come to think of it, that's still the case today - just look at the republican party and trump.

It's a repugnant word which I LOATHE in my books. Especially when used as a euphemism, where the male character worships every inch of the heroine's body. It's repulsive, well, my entire books are repulsive but this is trebly so. Or even when I see it, in my books or online comments and self-helf crap, how a woman deserves to be "worshipped like a queen". Fuck this primitive, stunted, degrading noise.

(I'm also constantly amazed by Americans (not just but especially) fascination with princes and princesses and queens and kings and all this primitive, degraded malarkey).

There's a song by possibly the best Russian singer-songwriters, like a Russian Leonard Cohen (but less sexual. Yeah, I still haven't quite recovered from trying to read Cohen's novel hobo ) about how he loves our scientific century full of so much advancement but it's a pity that we still dream of idols and think ourselves slaves. Which most religions happily (and nastily) promote.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#16

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 06:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: This hypothetical question is often asked of atheists by Christians and I bet it pisses you off as much as it pisses me off. 

"Would you bow down and bend your knee to a powerful god?"  

 I'm in a discussion with a christian on reddit over this very question.  What this question is REALLY asking is if you'd prostrate and humble yourself to a god and show how small, powerless and insiginificant you are.  It's a test question that establishes a sadomasochistic relationship with a powerful source.  They essentially want to humiliate you into submission.

First, there's a big problem.   They never establish whether their god exists so the question doesn't apply to reality.  I deal with reality.  They also never seem to ask if I would bend my knee to Zeus or Apollo or the American Indian god Wahanda.  No,  it's always the Biblical god.  So their question is disengenuous and Christian-centric from the get-go. 

My answer to this guy is that his question ("would you bend your knee to god?") is similar to someone asking me if I would make clothing items for an invisible garden Gnome.   Being a seamstress/costume designer by trade I'd need specific measurements.  I'd need his inseam, waist, shirt size and several other details.  But more importantly,  I'm not going to waste my time making small clothing items if this Gnome doesn't exist.  And if someone is testing my character just to see if I'd go to all the trouble of tailoring an entire mini costume for an invisible Gnome, then that person is sadistic from the word go.    

Any thoughts on my reply?

IF there really was ANY deity who demanded bowing and who held the power of eternal agony or reward, I would have to consider it. Eternal is a VERY LONG TIME. Panic or Dance But the proof of the ability would have to be extraordinary. So far, not yet...
I am tying notes to balloons and tumble-weeds and sending them out to the world. Where they are found, I do not know...
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#17

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 10:06 PM)Vera Wrote: (I'm also constantly amazed by Americans (not just but especially) fascination with princes and princesses and queens and kings and all this primitive, degraded malarkey).

There's a lot of different flavors of Americans. Stop broad-brushing us, okay?
Freedom isn't free.
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#18

On bended knee
Quote:(I'm also constantly amazed by Americans (not just but especially) fascination with princes and princesses and queens and kings and all this primitive, degraded malarkey).

I entirely agree, Vera.  What the hell do they think we fought the revolution to get away from?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#19

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 07:18 PM)Minimalist Wrote: The question is a thinly-disguised variant of Pascal's Wager. 

My answer would be "let your god prove himself to be what you claim and we'll talk.  Fictional tyrants are of no interest to me."

I disagree. Pascal's Wager is more about acting religiously and seeking to believe (in failure I assume) to receive the benefits of an afterlife. An actual prove of the existence of a deity (ANY deity, kind or evil) would be a different matter. Proof would have to be beyond anything I can currently image. There are things we might consider to be such proof, but a sufficiently-advanced technology might be able to do them while not being deities.

What if some being appeared and could tell me what I was thinking even if absurd (the elephant is climbing up inside a chimney). We are exploring thoughts through scalp-sensors, and wireless tech is advancing, so maybe that isn't hard in the future. Maybe move planets around suddenly. Who knows what gravitation devices will be possible to mere mortals in the far future. Maybe in internal voice saying "I am God and I know your secrets"? People do hear voices in their minds.

It's hard to imagine any absolute proof. I can even imagine a being that "brings me to the Big Bang and shows me the history of the Universe", and it could STILL be just in my mind.

Can anyone suggest a proof?
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#20

On bended knee
Quote: Proof would have to be beyond anything I can currently image.


I have my own test for such a "god" but the ladies would be offended.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#21

On bended knee
(08-27-2021, 10:06 PM)Vera Wrote:
(08-27-2021, 09:31 PM)Dom Wrote: This whole "worshipping" thing has always been an enigma to me. Reminds me of the days of kings and queens, where you had to subjugate yourself if you wanted to live and prosper.

Come to think of it, that's still the case today - just look at the republican party and trump.

It's a repugnant word which I LOATHE in my books. Especially when used as a euphemism, where the male character worships every inch of the heroine's body. It's repulsive, well, my entire books are repulsive but this is trebly so. Or even when I see it, in my books or online comments and self-helf crap, how a woman deserves to be "worshipped like a queen". Fuck this primitive, stunted, degrading noise.

(I'm also constantly amazed by Americans (not just but especially) fascination with princes and princesses and queens and kings and all this primitive, degraded malarkey).

There's a song by possibly the best Russian singer-songwriters, like a Russian Leonard Cohen (but less sexual. Yeah, I still haven't quite recovered from trying to read Cohen's novel  hobo ) about how he loves our scientific century full of so much advancement but it's a pity that we still dream of idols and think ourselves slaves. Which most religions happily (and nastily) promote.

Um, I might ask why you read the books you "loathe"...

As an American, I do not pay much attention to modern day royalty anywhere. If the British Queen (Elizabeth Alexandra Mary Windsor) was to somehow to appear on my doorstep, I suppose I would address her as "Mrs. Windsor" (in respect for age and marriage - and some confusion) or if it was an informal visit "Elizabeth" (hey, it's MY doorstep and she isn't THAT much older than me). But I would NOT address her as "Your Majesty; she's not mine.
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#22

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 01:26 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: Proof would have to be beyond anything I can currently image.


I have my own test for such a "god" but the ladies would be offended.

PLEASE PM me on that one! I promise not to repeat it.
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#23

On bended knee
Any entity that demands worship for purported salvation is not an entity that deserves worship.
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#24

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 02:22 AM)KevinM1 Wrote: Any entity that demands worship for purported salvation is not an entity that deserves worship.

But what if it HAS the power of salvation?
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#25

On bended knee
(08-28-2021, 02:41 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(08-28-2021, 02:22 AM)KevinM1 Wrote: Any entity that demands worship for purported salvation is not an entity that deserves worship.

But what if it HAS the power of salvation?

Fuck that. Once I die, I want to stay dead. Don't forget that that "salvation" is living in some celestial city FOREVER. Unless something better comes along, I'd prefer nonexistence. I'm reminded of the Heinlein story, "Time Enough for Love". The guy wants to die, because there is nothing new to be had, and he's lived 2k years and has pretty much seen it all, but is looking for something new. If you haven't read it, I won't spoil it for you. No god in that story, though.
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