A plea against bigotry

[vulcanlogician]

Aw man. I just got to the conversation after it evolved into ID and a whole host of other shit.

I just wanna say, Critic has a point (in the OP). The debate could be more civil. I've always thought so.

But... as has been mentioned... there is a history of religious rule in the west. Christians walk around with so much entitlement that it puts Millennials to utter shame. And the worst part is, they don't even realize it most of the time. etc. etc. etc.

But @Critic  I DO agree with you in principle. (at least what you said in the OP... I haven't read all you've said). And, don't be put off by Minimalist. He shoots from the hip. But he'll back up what he says with so many facts, it'll make your head spin. I think any theist would benefit from an honest conversation with him.

Thank you.  It's encouraging to hear you say that you've thought the debates should be more civil.  In my opinion both religion and politics should be able to be openly discussed because they are the things that affect a person and a community the most.  Yet these are also the things that people disagree on the most and due to the division and heated arguments they are also the ones that are most avoided in conversations.  Even among people of the same religion it can be heated conversations.  Don't know how but that atmosphere should be worked on.  Be able to talk to different perspectives as a people instead of only talking to like minded people until we have to talk to others.  But the first hurdle is to not automatically ridicule, villianize, or otherwise ignore and throw away.  

Thank you again for seeing the value in civil discussions.  Hopefully in time I can see the areas that I am privileged without knowing it, so that I am not oppressive to others who don't have the same advantages that I wasn't aware were missing in their population.

Agreed.

We --people on the internet-- should strive to be more level-headed and fair in our debates.

But, even if you accept this, you also have to make room for people's passions to enter the debate. People feel strongly about things. People want to express with their full throat what they see as true. And it's a good thing to do that. Community allows for that sort of thing. (This is an atheist community.)

But people are also sensitive. As human beings, that sensitivity inclines us to hang out and talk with like-minded people as a habit (because that is the most comfortable). That way, we can speak passionately and with ease... knowing we won't be opposed. Christians do this. Atheists do this. Everyone does this. But it leads to a kind of intellectual stagnation that I find troubling. That's why I've always appreciated (and tried to invite) fresh ideas to any forum. Even if I disagree with them.

Having one's ideas challenged is uncomfortable, and it can be a challenge to work past that. But, even so, I've found atheistic communities to do pretty well at considering a plurality of views. Maybe better than theistic communities? I guess it depends on the community in question...

[Critic]

Aw man. I just got to the conversation after it evolved into ID and a whole host of other shit.

I just wanna say, Critic has a point (in the OP). The debate could be more civil. I've always thought so.

But... as has been mentioned... there is a history of religious rule in the west. Christians walk around with so much entitlement that it puts Millennials to utter shame. And the worst part is, they don't even realize it most of the time. etc. etc. etc.

But @Critic  I DO agree with you in principle. (at least what you said in the OP... I haven't read all you've said). And, don't be put off by Minimalist. He shoots from the hip. But he'll back up what he says with so many facts, it'll make your head spin. I think any theist would benefit from an honest conversation with him.

Thank you.  It's encouraging to hear you say that you've thought the debates should be more civil.  In my opinion both religion and politics should be able to be openly discussed because they are the things that affect a person and a community the most.  Yet these are also the things that people disagree on the most and due to the division and heated arguments they are also the ones that are most avoided in conversations.  Even among people of the same religion it can be heated conversations.  Don't know how but that atmosphere should be worked on.  Be able to talk to different perspectives as a people instead of only talking to like minded people until we have to talk to others.  But the first hurdle is to not automatically ridicule, villianize, or otherwise ignore and throw away.  

Thank you again for seeing the value in civil discussions.  Hopefully in time I can see the areas that I am privileged without knowing it, so that I am not oppressive to others who don't have the same advantages that I wasn't aware were missing in their population.

Agreed.

We --people on the internet-- should strive to be more level-headed and fair in our debates.

But, even if you accept this, you also have to make room for people's passions to enter the debate. People feel strongly about things. People want to express with their full throat what they see as true. And it's a good thing to do that. Community allows for that sort of thing. (This is an atheist community.)

But people are also sensitive. As human beings, that sensitivity inclines us to hang out and talk with like-minded people as a habit (because that is the most comfortable). That way, we can speak passionately and with ease... knowing we won't be opposed. Christians do this. Atheists do this. Everyone does this. But it leads to a kind of intellectual stagnation that I find troubling. That's why I've always appreciated (and tried to invite) fresh ideas to any forum. Even if I disagree with them.

Having one's ideas challenged is uncomfortable, and it can be a challenge to work past that. But, even so, I've found atheistic communities to do pretty well at considering a plurality of views. Maybe better than theistic communities? I guess it depends on the community in question...

One way I've heard it is that for Christians, church is where we get strengthened, and where we should build each other up, deepen our faith, and grow in our character.  But that is not where we should stay.  Christians are called to go out into the world.  The world that is unkind, unfair, corrupt, and often full of misdirection and snares.  Grow, get encouraged, learn, then go out and do work in the world we live in.  It's one of the callings that I know I'm lacking.  I don't make time to be the light or the salt of the world, to visit those in prison, look after the widowed and orphaned, or help the homeless.  Instead I am just exhausted trying to make it and going to work to just get by.  I fully understand the idea you mean to get strengthened by those who are like minded.  And I hope you can find something in your communities to be strengthened by (regardless if it's atheists or something else like a book club or martial arts group).

[Minimalist]

And, don't be put off by Minimalist. He shoots from the hip. But he'll back up what he says with so many facts, it'll make your head spin. I think any theist would benefit from an honest conversation with him.

Hah!  But what's in it for me!

Good one, Vulc!

[SYZ]

I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.  And here's my reasoning.  More and more I see atheists go on the attack against religious people, it dies not matter the religion of if the religious person did anything wrong outside of bring religious in some way.  Even Richard Dawkins encourages this behavior to publicly humiliate and ridicule anyone who's religious if you ever get the chance.  To the point that I see innocent people publicly called out as criminal, crazy, and abusive, when they show no signs of any of these.  There's still time to step away from these kinds of attitudes and not cause atheism to become a form of bigotry.  Spread the word.  Whatever ethics you hold on to use those ethics to fight bigotry from forming within your peers of Atheist.  Thank you.

It's interesting—and somewhat ironic—that your topic header is "a plea against bigotry".
The religious, particularly the zealous and evangelical, are considered by most to be the
most bigoted people in society.  I've never actually seen an atheist described as bigoted.

You also appear not to understand what it means to be an atheist.  There is no atheist
"community".  Atheism is merely a state of an individual's mind; there are no dogmas or
doctrines to follow, no preachers, no book of rules and regulations, no prohibitions of
normal  societal life, no houses of worship, no gods or angels or devils, no beliefs of the
paranormal etc.   Atheists are skeptics and humanists, and support the agency of human
beings, looking to science and reason rather than revelations from a supernatural source
in order to understand the universe.

[Critic]

I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.  And here's my reasoning.  More and more I see atheists go on the attack against religious people, it dies not matter the religion of if the religious person did anything wrong outside of bring religious in some way.  Even Richard Dawkins encourages this behavior to publicly humiliate and ridicule anyone who's religious if you ever get the chance.  To the point that I see innocent people publicly called out as criminal, crazy, and abusive, when they show no signs of any of these.  There's still time to step away from these kinds of attitudes and not cause atheism to become a form of bigotry.  Spread the word.  Whatever ethics you hold on to use those ethics to fight bigotry from forming within your peers of Atheist.  Thank you.

It's interesting—and somewhat ironic—that your topic header is "a plea against bigotry".
The religious, particularly the zealous and evangelical, are considered by most to be the
most bigoted people in society.  I've never actually seen an atheist described as bigoted.

You also appear not to understand what it means to be an atheist.  There is no atheist
"community".  Atheism is merely a state of an individual's mind; there are no dogmas or
doctrines to follow, no preachers, no book of rules and regulations, no prohibitions of
normal  societal life, no houses of worship, no gods or angels or devils, no beliefs of the
paranormal etc.   Atheists are skeptics and humanists, and support the agency of human
beings, looking to science and reason rather than revelations from a supernatural source
in order to understand the universe.

I've never heard atheists described as bigoted either, yet there gave been troubling philosophies that I thought I saw as common among atheists that fit the discription of being bigotry,  At least in my small opinion.  I've seen a few atheists that are surprisingly outside of what I would expect from an atheist position.  From atheists who call themselves a title that basically means they appreciate Christian culture, but do not believe anything Christian outside if a shared value set.  I've met one Atheist who I thought at first was Hindu or possibly Buddhist because she said she believed in reincarnation,  She later explained when I asked that she was atheist and things reincarnation fits her view of science where energy is neither created not destroyed.  I've found surprising findings of atgrusts that believe in a kind of worship or reverence of nature, much like paganism, and those that believes in spirits, souks, and ghosts.  They just didn't believe in God.  I am aware that there is a diverse group if perspectives among atheists.

Yet then I see what I would consider mainstream atheism, which is a type I see and interact with the most whenever I've met someone who is atheist. I am now hoping that who I've met are the minority instead of the common atheist.  All we can go on is our own travels and experiences to guess what is common versus what is rare.  

As for atheists not having a community, I disagree.  This here online is a community.  It seems like some of you know each other possibly from talking to each other for a while now.  Not sure how to describe it except as a community.

[Deesse23]

Isn't saying and calling yourself a "critic" (prejudging) those here, doing the very same things you said you don't like ?
Are you always this condescending and high and mighty and patronizing ?
When you arrived here, and said you were a "critic" did you know anyone here ?
Were you not thinking you knew more about us than we know ourselves ?
How did you know that anyone here should share the blame for how some atheists act ?
You prejudged us.
Didn't Jesus tell you not to judge, lest you be judged ?
You don't appear to be a Christian.

I was wondering as well (and about to ask Critic): "What made you come to this forum of all places to complain about atheists? Do you you think we are guilty of what you accuse *some* atheists of?"

@Critic
Dont you think it was a rather crucial information (especially regarding your OP) to inform us that you are a theist/christian? We have theists in this forum, and one of them is actually a mod.

Do you think the theory of evolution is the best explanation for speciation/change of allele frequency as we can observe? I am asking this because i am interested in your epistemology, the consistency of it specifically. You cite studies to back up claims about abuse but you also claimed that (paraphrasing) ID is *obvious* and that is enough for you to consider it to be an option having to be taken seriously enough to be taught in school, to children.

What it dies do is acknowledge the obviousness of design that we can see from enough study of the natural world

Why do you have seemingly different standards for determining the background of (spousal) abuse and the evolution of life in the natural world?

I also am of the opinion that the pushback against him was unnecessarily strong. But, as we all know, 9/10 new forum members lately are either trolls or have hidden agendas. Bringing up "atheist bogotry" while hiding the fact that you are christian possibly made things a lot worse for Critic. I do however not think he is a troll, just a genuine person.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hopefully you have more costumers that stick around because they see you not doing thst,instead of more of them, leaving do to not following the same faith.

No, my point is that there really is no discussion of faith at all, although some customers are pretty religious and make it plain. I live in Central Texas so there's a lot of religious folk out here, but very few people feel the need to stick it into every corner of their lives.

I know of two customers who I've evicted, because they apparently thought that because I was on the clock, I had to listen to their preachments. Outside of that, religion is not an issue in my shop. We're in it for the money, and the money don't know it's Christian.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I just wanna say, Critic has a point (in the OP). The debate could be more civil. I've always thought so.

He wants US to be more civil, meaning we just nod and smile when some lunatic says the streets of Hell are paved with the skulls of unbaptized children.

As for civility, my cousins have often said they'd be glad to "send me on my way" to find out if there really is a god.

[Vera]

"I’m sorry if my Atheism offends you. But guess what - your religious wars, jihads, crusades, inquisitions, censoring of free speech, brainwashing of children, murdering of albinos, forcing girls into underage marriages, female genital mutilation, stoning, pederasty, homophobia, and rejection of science and reason offends me. So, I guess we’re even."

Also, the moment someone starts waving the name of Dawkins around like he's our pope or something and speaks for all atheists that ever were, are and will be, forever and ever, hallowed be His name, amen, it tells me all I need to know about just how much this religious person knows - or WANTS to know - about what atheism really is.

Add to this that he's sought an atheist forum specifically in order to criticise us, without having the guts to outright admit he's a Xtian or give any pertinent info about himself, other than - I'M HERE TO TELL YOU ALL THE WAYS YOU'RE WRONG AND YOU BETTER RESPECT ME OR ELSE (and spout some mind-bogglingly ignorant stuff about climate change and smog) and yes, my hopes for *anything* resembling even halfway honest dialogue are less than zero.

How can *anyone*, after all these years, expect *anything* different from someone coming and acting this way (pretty much textbook Xtian proselytiser) is beyond me.

What was that definition of, let's politely call it insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results?

[Dom]

As for atheists not having a community, I disagree.  This here online is a community.  It seems like some of you know each other possibly from talking to each other for a while now.  Not sure how to describe it except as a community.

Online communities like this one often exist because most of the members do not have an offline community where they can be themselves and speak freely. Or the community deals with a specialized topic that is not of interest to everyone. There is no place for atheists in the real world, we can exist, but we better do so quietly and listen to religious talk without comment. Atheist talk is not accepted.

I see both the religious and atheists painting each other with a broad brush. That is what discrimination is, and both sides practice it.

Humans have villainized "the other" since we lived in caves, and with all our "enlightenment" we really haven't changed.

[Szuchow]

One way I've heard it is that for Christians, church is where we get strengthened, and where we should build each other up, deepen our faith, and grow in our character.  But that is not where we should stay.

Church is exactly where you [as in christians "you"] should stay. Proselytizing isn't appreciated and there is no need at all to push ancient mythology on modern societies.

Christians are called to go out into the world.

No. Christians may think so but that's quite the difference. 

The world that is unkind, unfair, corrupt, and often full of misdirection and snares.

It seems that christians aren't capable of helping with such. There is so many of them and yet world still is shitty. One might even ask if existence of christians is positive.

Grow, get encouraged, learn, then go out and do work in the world we live in.  It's one of the callings that I know I'm lacking.  I don't make time to be the light or the salt of the world, to visit those in prison, look after the widowed and orphaned, or help the homeless.  Instead I am just exhausted trying to make it and going to work to just get by.  I fully understand the idea you mean to get strengthened by those who are like minded.  And I hope you can find something in your communities to be strengthened by (regardless if it's atheists or something else like a book club or martial arts group).

Even if you would have time you wouldn't be the light of the world. To say something that you will not like - you aren't special, you aren't important and sure as shit you do not warrant such lofty title. However such arrogance is only to be expected from christian - that is someone who believe that [mythical] creator of universe is concerned with his deeds.

[Alan V]

I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.

Any accusations of bigotry should be discussed on a case-by-case basis.  Otherwise you are using a bigoted approach to condemn bigotry.

Have any atheists you know of burned down churches?  Have they promoted hatred against Jews?  Do they condemn other races?

Or do they just criticize weird religious beliefs and superstitions in the hope of helping other people grow up a bit?

[Szuchow]

I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.

There is no atheist community just as there is no community of people who don't eat broccoli, or those who don't collect stamps.

And here's my reasoning.  More and more I see atheists go on the attack against religious people, it dies not matter the religion of if the religious person did anything wrong outside of bring religious in some way.

I see the exact opposite. It's religious people who put their ancient taboos onto others, who try to legislate morals [lack of them] of their genocidal deity as law. It's christians who attack homosexuals likening them to communists or dehumanizing them. It's christians [worshippers of deity responsible for genocide] who tell that atheists are immoral...

See "Commentary on Polish political scene" thread if you want  examples.

What christians deem attack on them is merely not applauding whatever bullshit they spout.

Even Richard Dawkins encourages this behavior to publicly humiliate and ridicule anyone who's religious if you ever get the chance.

So what? Dawkins isn't anyone particularly important nor he is some official speaker for atheism.

Also citation needed.

To the point that I see innocant people publicly called out as criminal, crazy, and abusive, when they show no signs of any of these.  There's still time to step away from these kinds of attitudes and not cause atheism to become a form of bigotry.  Spread the word.  Whatever ethics you hold on to use those ethics to fight bigotry from forming within your peers of Atheist.  Thank you.

I call bullshit on this. Christians are so accustomed to being put on pedestal that they just can't stand the fact that they're just another bunch of sheep believing in some shitty, ancient myth.

As for ethics - only when christians will stop worshipping space Hitler [remember flood narrative?] their words on ethic and morality will have some weight. Till this happen their opinion is irrelevant just as racist opinion about alleged "virtues" of racism.

[GenesisNemesis]

I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.

Any accusations of bigotry should be discussed on a case-by-case basis.  Otherwise you are using a bigoted approach to condemn bigotry.

Have any atheists you know of burned down churches?  Have they promoted hatred against Jews?  Do they condemn other races?

Or do they just criticize weird religious beliefs and superstitions in the hope of helping other people grow up a bit?

Now that I think about it OP does seem to be painting atheists with quite a broad brush.

[Dom]

I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.

Any accusations of bigotry should be discussed on a case-by-case basis.  Otherwise you are using a bigoted approach to condemn bigotry.

Have any atheists you know of burned down churches?  Have they promoted hatred against Jews?  Do they condemn other races?

Or do they just criticize weird religious beliefs and superstitions in the hope of helping other people grow up a bit?

Now that I think about it OP does seem to be painting atheists with quite a broad brush.

And our members are doing the same to him.

Same as always, but the OP seems more open minded than most.

[Szuchow]

I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.

Any accusations of bigotry should be discussed on a case-by-case basis.  Otherwise you are using a bigoted approach to condemn bigotry.

Have any atheists you know of burned down churches?  Have they promoted hatred against Jews?  Do they condemn other races?

Or do they just criticize weird religious beliefs and superstitions in the hope of helping other people grow up a bit?

Now that I think about it OP does seem to be painting atheists with quite a broad brush.

OP is pushing tired, old narrative about mean atheists attacking righteous christians. He merely writes it somewhat differently.

[GenesisNemesis]

So what? Dawkins isn't anyone particularly important nor he is some official speaker for atheism.

I would say he was important, but that was before he started tweeting some of his inane views. And some atheists do still look up to him unfortunately.

[vulcanlogician]

I just wanna say, Critic has a point (in the OP). The debate could be more civil. I've always thought so.

He wants US to be more civil, meaning we just nod and smile when some lunatic says the streets of Hell are paved with the skulls of unbaptized children.

As for civility, my cousins have often said they'd be glad to "send me on my way" to find out if there really is a god.

So, now is a good time to point out stuff like that. Then maybe OP will come away having a better idea of what atheists' problems with religion are.

I agree with you that Critic has mischaracterized atheists' attitudes. He doesn't properly understand us. You and I are just using different approaches to set him straight.

[Szuchow]

So what? Dawkins isn't anyone particularly important nor he is some official speaker for atheism.

I would say he was important, but that was before he started tweeting some of his inane views.

As far as I am concerned he is and was irrelevant*. Being well known isn't the same as being important. This is immaterial however - Dawkins actual importance aside he still isn't any kind of spokesperson for atheism.


*His field of study excluded. I concede that he might have been important there but I don't care enough to look for info.

[GenesisNemesis]

Any accusations of bigotry should be discussed on a case-by-case basis.  Otherwise you are using a bigoted approach to condemn bigotry.

Have any atheists you know of burned down churches?  Have they promoted hatred against Jews?  Do they condemn other races?

Or do they just criticize weird religious beliefs and superstitions in the hope of helping other people grow up a bit?

Now that I think about it OP does seem to be painting atheists with quite a broad brush.

And our members are doing the same to him.

Same as always, but the OP seems more open minded than most.

Well, to be completely honest, I am rather tired of religious people coming in to atheist forums just to moralize about what atheists are doing wrong. I don't even see how it would be coming from a genuine desire to "end" bigotry. OP already said that they believe Christians are called to go into the world, so they believe that our souls are in danger and that's the framework they're working from. I wouldn't call that a genuine desire to help us. They're doing it because their religion told them to.

[Vera]

Well, to be completely honest, I am rather tired of religious people coming in to atheist forums just to moralize about what atheists are doing wrong. I don't even see how it would be coming from a genuine desire to "end" bigotry. OP already said that they believe Christians are called to go into the world, so they believe that our souls are in danger and that's the framework they're working from. I wouldn't call that a genuine desire to help us. They're doing it because their religion told them to.

Well, apparently, this one is more open-minded, the other one was a just a kiddie who honestly - but HONESTLY - wanted to learn and debate, and the next will be better still.

I don't know if people actually believe this, or get a kick from feeling all superior to us, lowly, hostile plebes nor do I really care. I can count on the fingers of one hand the theists who have come here genuinely... and I've long since lost track of the vast, VAST majority of them, who come here with a PATENTLY obvious, more often than not offensive and condescending, agenda, only to preach at us for a week or so and then piss off to go preach at someone else.

But of course, it's all *our* fault, nasty, unwelcoming Dawkins-worshippers that we are.

Yawn

[vulcanlogician]

Well, to be completely honest, I am rather tired of religious people coming in to atheist forums just to moralize about what atheists are doing wrong. I don't even see how it would be coming from a genuine desire to "end" bigotry. OP already said that they believe Christians are called to go into the world, so they believe that our souls are in danger and that's the framework they're working from. I wouldn't call that a genuine desire to help us. They're doing it because their religion told them to.

Wouldn't it be better if he had a more enlightened attitude?

He doesn't have an enlightened attitude concerning atheism now. But how is he going to get from point A to point B? Sure, you can point out how dickish it is for him to be at point A. Or you could explain stuff to him that may increase his understanding. And then maybe he'll realize himself how dickish that point A is. And then arrive at point B. That's the best result, no?

I see that Critic has a chip on his shoulder. (And that's annoying.) But he isn't a raving lunatic or a complete idiot. That makes me want to give him a chance and have a dialogue with him. I've done it before and made genuine progress with theists. It's a good thing when that happens. I'm not holding my breath or anything. But (at the same time) you gotta give people a chance to learn.

[julep]

Now that I think about it OP does seem to be painting atheists with quite a broad brush.

And our members are doing the same to him.

Same as always, but the OP seems more open minded than most.

Well, to be completely honest, I am rather tired of religious people coming in to atheist forums just to moralize about what atheists are doing wrong. I don't even see how it would be coming from a genuine desire to "end" bigotry. OP already said that they believe Christians are called to go into the world, so they believe that our souls are in danger and that's the framework they're working from. I wouldn't call that a genuine desire to help us. They're doing it because their religion told them to.

Far as I can tell with the OP, when christians proselytize to atheists, as he is beginning to do in this thread (by insisting that Christians are nicer than atheists), it's evangelism and following god's command. When atheists proselytize to christians, it's bigotry and disrespectful of the christian belief system.  

Now, I don't and would never proselytize for atheism.  It's pointless and immensely rude.  I'd bet many if not most of the atheist posters on this site also don't try to convert random people around them to atheism, but that doesn't stop jerks like the OP from coming in and begging us to stop seeking out and "harassing" Christians within hours of joining. It's okay, somehow, for Critic to go all-atheists and Dawkins-your-king on us in a place where we gather partly because we don't scream our beliefs in the public square, but any of us who push back are meanies.

[Minimalist]

Well, to be completely honest, I am rather tired of religious people coming in to atheist forums just to moralize about what atheists are doing wrong.

They come here to preach and tell us how hunky-dory everything would be if we just believed in their bullshit god.

They are all the same.

And there really is no point in trying to "engage" with them because they are still in the believer stage.   They have to develop their own doubts.  No one can do it for them.

[adey67]

Aw man. I just got to the conversation after it evolved into ID and a whole host of other shit.

I just wanna say, Critic has a point (in the OP). The debate could be more civil. I've always thought so.

But... as has been mentioned... there is a history of religious rule in the west. Christians walk around with so much entitlement that it puts Millennials to utter shame. And the worst part is, they don't even realize it most of the time. etc. etc. etc.

But @Critic  I DO agree with you in principle. (at least what you said in the OP... I haven't read all you've said). And, don't be put off by Minimalist. He shoots from the hip. But he'll back up what he says with so many facts, it'll make your head spin. I think any theist would benefit from an honest conversation with him.

Good points my friend. I think changing the nature of the forum would be difficult though, many of us were used to TTA and when we came here we modelled ourselves on TTA (but minus its dodgy owner) many of us know nothing different in terms of tone and the sometimes combative nature of conversations, we're just used to it and accept it plus I find being told a spade is a spade (often in no uncertain terms) makes me sharper and encourages me to fact check and I always know where I stand with almost everyone here which I quite like.