A plea against bigotry

[julep]

Which states?  Sounds like something worth bringing up to those states.  But no, I was not aware of this.  I've never tried to run for office so I don't know the rules to join the tactics that politicians engage in.  The less politician like people are the better in my opinion, so I don't relate to this outcry as much.

Because it doesn't affect you, you can't be assed to know about it or worry about it, or to support the rights of the classes of people harmed by it? If you aren't black, you don't care about bigotry against blacks? If you're comfortably heterosexual, you don't care about bigotry against those who aren't?

I do care about blacks, and I care about homosexuals.  Your assumption is wrong.  Either way though, even if you don't believe me, it does not change who I am, so I'll move on.  ... Unless you wish to discuss how to help either community.  Because I see that as a worth while discussion to explore.  One idea I have would be have a mandatory class for public schools curriculums.  To have a class on healthy relationships.  This would help the general population, but also help minorities who have a higher rate of single parent households trying to raise their kids, minorities that have a higher rate of abusive parents and creating expectations for abuse in their kids, as well as help homosexuals that that gave a higher rate of abuse in their relationships.  This solution will help the demographic pull itself out of poverty if it's in there, as well as help the next generation have a stable hone to help them when other issues arise, so they are less likely to get draged into poverty, crime, or drug abuse.  If you have other solutions lets hear it.  Otherwise if you want ti tell me you know me better than I know myself, I'll pass and move on to another comment.

These are not assumptions, they are questions based on your response to atheists telling you about actual discriminatory laws against atheists and personal accounts of discrimination and your response being dismissive.  “I don’t know about it/it doesn’t affect me/your accounts are biased” you are telling us. I am not necessarily accusing you of not caring about these groups. I am asking you to examine why, if you are so supportive of these groups, you just see atheists as whiny or hyper aggressive. Why you see atheists as wronging/hurting religious people while you reject atheists’ lived experience and make excuses for religious people’s (the majority group) discriminatory actions towards atheists. 

it’s easier for you to say julep is telling you she knows you better than you know yourself and to put me on ignore or whatever. But I’m asking you to examine yourself and explain why you support the rights of some groups, but not atheists, and why you’re so eager to slap down the experiences of people on this forum.

[julep]

In your introduction thread you wrote this....


"Two things I do not like is hypocrisy, and assuming you know a person better than they know themselves."

This is perhaps something you may not realize about atheists, we too hate hypocrites.  It's particularly grievous when in 2016 we witnessed "good Christians" going out of their way to install a morally bankrupt man as President of the United States who claimed the Bible was his "favorite book" yet couldn't muster up even one single verse from it's 1200 pages. 

Hang on now that's not completely fair to Trump...he did say his favorite book in the bible was One Corinthians.  [/joke]

Two Corinthians. Dammit.

[Critic]

[...] minorities that have a higher rate of abusive parents and creating expectations for abuse in their kids, as well as help homosexuals that that gave a higher rate of abuse in their relationships.

Claims like this should be presented with reliable sources, don'tcha think?

Here's one for you.

https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-vi...city-62648

[Thumpalumpacus]

[...] minorities that have a higher rate of abusive parents and creating expectations for abuse in their kids, as well as help homosexuals that that gave a higher rate of abuse in their relationships.

Claims like this should be presented with reliable sources, don'tcha think?

Here's one for you.

https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-vi...city-62648

Well, that source doesn't support the claim that minorities are more likely to have abusive parents, which was one of your claims. Indeed, when talking about black women in particular, it strongly implies that the main source of abuse is spousal rather than parental. This context is made clear by the paragraph in your article:

Although completely accurate numbers are probably not available, researchers generally agree that among ethnic minority groups in the United States, Blacks are the most likely to experience domestic violence—either male-to-female or female-to-male—followed by Hispanics and then Whites.2

 Meanwhile, Asians are the least likely to experience intimate partner violence.

Notice the emphasis on partner violence rather than parental.

[Critic]

Because it doesn't affect you, you can't be assed to know about it or worry about it, or to support the rights of the classes of people harmed by it? If you aren't black, you don't care about bigotry against blacks? If you're comfortably heterosexual, you don't care about bigotry against those who aren't?

I do care about blacks, and I care about homosexuals.  Your assumption is wrong.  Either way though, even if you don't believe me, it does not change who I am, so I'll move on.  ... Unless you wish to discuss how to help either community.  Because I see that as a worth while discussion to explore.  One idea I have would be have a mandatory class for public schools curriculums.  To have a class on healthy relationships.  This would help the general population, but also help minorities who have a higher rate of single parent households trying to raise their kids, minorities that have a higher rate of abusive parents and creating expectations for abuse in their kids, as well as help homosexuals that that gave a higher rate of abuse in their relationships.  This solution will help the demographic pull itself out of poverty if it's in there, as well as help the next generation have a stable hone to help them when other issues arise, so they are less likely to get draged into poverty, crime, or drug abuse.  If you have other solutions lets hear it.  Otherwise if you want ti tell me you know me better than I know myself, I'll pass and move on to another comment.

These are not assumptions, they are questions based on your response to atheists telling you about actual discriminatory laws against atheists and personal accounts of discrimination and your response being dismissive.  “I don’t know about it/it doesn’t affect me/your accounts are biased” you are telling us. I am not necessarily accusing you of not caring about these groups. I am asking you to examine why, if you are so supportive of these groups, you just see atheists as whiny or hyper aggressive. Why you see atheists as wronging/hurting religious people while you reject atheists’ lived experience and make excuses for religious people’s (the majority group) discriminatory actions towards atheists. 

it’s easier for you to say julep is telling you she knows you better than you know yourself and to put me on ignore or whatever. But I’m asking you to examine yourself and explain why you support the rights of some groups, but not atheists, and why you’re so eager to slap down the experiences of people on this forum.

I support basic rights for everyone.  However what I came here for is to address a growing problem that I see.  It doesn't go away because other wrongs are ongoing.  I honestly did not know about the restrictions of atheists in political office, because I do not value politicians, nor is my home listed in those states.  Two reasons why I won't know.  If done one is offended because I did not know, there's not much I can do about that.  However, I think that goes into avoiding a critism through criticizing another.  No progress gets made.  If you know of something I can do to help atheist wanting to join politics I'm open to hearing those suggestions.  For those that are black listed in business opportunities from Christian communities, I have a solution for you guys to try.  Talk to a church board.  The same intent I have for coming here with a specific critism, can be applied to going to church leaders, asking them to challenge their congregations to love their neighbors, and repent of this type of sin.  It might have more progress then just being angry about the situation.  Open communication in a civil manner, I think will help a lot of issues. Including the reason I came here and for being wronged by Christian communities.

[Inkubus]

[...] minorities that have a higher rate of abusive parents and creating expectations for abuse in their kids, as well as help homosexuals that that gave a higher rate of abuse in their relationships.

Claims like this should be presented with reliable sources, don'tcha think?

Here's one for you.

https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-vi...city-62648

It would help us if you snipped a wee portion of of that link.

[Critic]

Claims like this should be presented with reliable sources, don'tcha think?

Here's one for you.

https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-vi...city-62648

Well, that source doesn't support the claim that minorities are more likely to have abusive parents, which was one of your claims. Indeed, when talking about black women in particular, it strongly implies that the main source of abuse is spousal rather than parental. This context is made clear by the paragraph in your article:

Although completely accurate numbers are probably not available, researchers generally agree that among ethnic minority groups in the United States, Blacks are the most likely to experience domestic violence—either male-to-female or female-to-male—followed by Hispanics and then Whites.2

 Meanwhile, Asians are the least likely to experience intimate partner violence.

Notice the emphasis on partner violence rather than parental.

There are three factors that I see when it comes to relationship issues.  One is abusive partners, another is abusive parents, and a third is single parent household with less resources to both suport the family with their job, as well as have time to help their kids out of the trouble kids find themselves in.  If you want more articles I can search for more to support my claim.  I found this information before, I'm sure I can find them again.

[Critic]

Claims like this should be presented with reliable sources, don'tcha think?

Here's one for you.

https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-vi...city-62648

Well, that source doesn't support the claim that minorities are more likely to have abusive parents, which was one of your claims. Indeed, when talking about black women in particular, it strongly implies that the main source of abuse is spousal rather than parental. This context is made clear by the paragraph in your article:

Although completely accurate numbers are probably not available, researchers generally agree that among ethnic minority groups in the United States, Blacks are the most likely to experience domestic violence—either male-to-female or female-to-male—followed by Hispanics and then Whites.2

 Meanwhile, Asians are the least likely to experience intimate partner violence.

Notice the emphasis on partner violence rather than parental.

On child abuse.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/2548...ethnicity/

On single parent households.  

https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/ta...13/432,431

In each of these stats the issue of stable healthy relations affects all races.  Minorities are affected more, but all demographics gave too high a rate for domestic abuse, child abuse, and single parent households.  Every One benefits from a school program about relationships, but minorities will benefit from them even more.  If there a reason to not support such a program?

[julep]

I do care about blacks, and I care about homosexuals.  Your assumption is wrong.  Either way though, even if you don't believe me, it does not change who I am, so I'll move on.  ... Unless you wish to discuss how to help either community.  Because I see that as a worth while discussion to explore.  One idea I have would be have a mandatory class for public schools curriculums.  To have a class on healthy relationships.  This would help the general population, but also help minorities who have a higher rate of single parent households trying to raise their kids, minorities that have a higher rate of abusive parents and creating expectations for abuse in their kids, as well as help homosexuals that that gave a higher rate of abuse in their relationships.  This solution will help the demographic pull itself out of poverty if it's in there, as well as help the next generation have a stable hone to help them when other issues arise, so they are less likely to get draged into poverty, crime, or drug abuse.  If you have other solutions lets hear it.  Otherwise if you want ti tell me you know me better than I know myself, I'll pass and move on to another comment.

These are not assumptions, they are questions based on your response to atheists telling you about actual discriminatory laws against atheists and personal accounts of discrimination and your response being dismissive.  “I don’t know about it/it doesn’t affect me/your accounts are biased” you are telling us. I am not necessarily accusing you of not caring about these groups. I am asking you to examine why, if you are so supportive of these groups, you just see atheists as whiny or hyper aggressive. Why you see atheists as wronging/hurting religious people while you reject atheists’ lived experience and make excuses for religious people’s (the majority group) discriminatory actions towards atheists. 

it’s easier for you to say julep is telling you she knows you better than you know yourself and to put me on ignore or whatever. But I’m asking you to examine yourself and explain why you support the rights of some groups, but not atheists, and why you’re so eager to slap down the experiences of people on this forum.

I support basic rights for everyone.  However what I came here for is to address a growing problem that I see.  It doesn't go away because other wrongs are ongoing.  I honestly did not know about the restrictions of atheists in political office, because I do not value politicians, nor is my home listed in those states.  Two reasons why I won't know.  If done one is offended because I did not know, there's not much I can do about that.  However, I think that goes into avoiding a critism through criticizing another.  No progress gets made.  If you know of something I can do to help atheist wanting to join politics I'm open to hearing those suggestions.  For those that are black listed in business opportunities from Christian communities, I have a solution for you guys to try.  Talk to a church board.  The same intent I have for coming here with a specific critism, can be applied to going to church leaders, asking them to challenge their congregations to love their neighbors, and repent of this type of sin.  It might have more progress then just being angry about the situation.  Open communication in a civil manner, I think will help a lot of issues. Including the reason I came here and for being wronged by Christian communities.

Fair enough, although I disagree. I would characterize your position as tone policing. Saying to atheists—and other minority groups, including gays, blacks, muslims, etc.—you just have to approach christians/the dominant group in a peaceful manner.Peaceful meaning obsequious. “Ask for your rights in a manner we judge as polite and nonthreatening,” the dominant groups insist, “and we’ll listen and address the grievances.“ 

Except that there is never a tone that is judged considered quite right, and the grievances, because they don’t affect the dominant group, aren’t considered pressing.  

As someone who grew up in a missionary fundamentalist christian household, I am intimately familiar with a christian worldview and bear the scars of vicious christians who ostracized me well before I gave up the religion, when my parents divorced. They also took away my father’s job. Christians are people and some are decent and some are not, but as groups they tend to be awful and to wield their power in a way that is designed to preserve their dominance rather than to advance the tenets of their religion.

[Thumpalumpacus]

There are three factors that I see when it comes to relationship issues.  One is abusive partners, another is abusive parents, and a third is single parent household with less resources to both suport the family with their job, as well as have time to help their kids out of the trouble kids find themselves in.

Sure, abuse comes in different flavors. I'm just saying that that article didn't really support any claim of parental abuse being more prevalent in minority households.

 

If you want more articles I can search for more to support my claim.  I found this information before, I'm sure I can find them again.

If you've the time and energy, sure.

[Thumpalumpacus]

If there a reason to not support such a program?

Thanks for putting up more info. I think relationship studies would be useful for teens, I'm not against it in principle.

[Thumpalumpacus]

For those that are black listed in business opportunities from Christian communities, I have a solution for you guys to try.  Talk to a church board.  The same intent I have for coming here with a specific critism, can be applied to going to church leaders, asking them to challenge their congregations to love their neighbors, and repent of this type of sin.  It might have more progress then just being angry about the situation.  Open communication in a civil manner, I think will help a lot of issues. Including the reason I came here and for being wronged by Christian communities.

I've managed small businesses for 25 years. I don't reach out to or reject religious dollars; I don't see them dollars as having any religion at all. I aim to have my staff provide great customer service while we deliver quality merch at competitive prices. I don't see any need to pander to any religious community; I see the need to practice good business etiquette.

I don't discuss religion at work and frown upon my employees doing so with customers as that can always be dicey. The last I checked, cars owned by Christians run on the same gasoline as cars run by atheists. If I am talking to any special-interest group, it's commercial drivers. That's business.

[Critic]

If there a reason to not support such a program?

Thanks for putting up more info. I think relationship studies would be useful for teens, I'm not against it in principle.

Glad to hear.  The idea in my mind is to affect a long term change that takes time to develop.  The next generation will have the knowledge to better assess toxic and abusive relationships, as well as identify enough attributes to not do the deeds themselves.  The more they have these tools the better for the population as a whole.  But where it really helps is the generation after the one getting the education.  Because that generation will reap the benefits of their parents harnessing healthy stable long lasting relationships.  What I mean is that the generation afterwards will have parents who can have both of them there to increase their chances of success in the transitions onto adulthood, as well as help bailing them out ofbrewing trouble.  A closer benefit is economically.  Stable householdswithmorethen one income gave A better chance of rising out of poverty and into the next higher tier of income.  (That reference might be harder to find, I can try if you still want it though).  In theory this type of program could help reduce crime in future generations, because if the effects of the next few generations having the benefit of two parents to support them.

[Minimalist]

Pardon me but we can't get half the morons in this country to get a vaccine which will save their lives and you want them to read professional studies?  Be serious.

[vulcanlogician]

Aw man. I just got to the conversation after it evolved into ID and a whole host of other shit.

I just wanna say, Critic has a point (in the OP). The debate could be more civil. I've always thought so.

But... as has been mentioned... there is a history of religious rule in the west. Christians walk around with so much entitlement that it puts Millennials to utter shame. And the worst part is, they don't even realize it most of the time. etc. etc. etc.

But @Critic I DO agree with you in principle. (at least what you said in the OP... I haven't read all you've said). And, don't be put off by Minimalist. He shoots from the hip. But he'll back up what he says with so many facts, it'll make your head spin. I think any theist would benefit from an honest conversation with him.

[jerry mcmasters]

Here's one for you.

https://www.verywellmind.com/domestic-vi...city-62648

Well, that source doesn't support the claim that minorities are more likely to have abusive parents, which was one of your claims. Indeed, when talking about black women in particular, it strongly implies that the main source of abuse is spousal rather than parental. This context is made clear by the paragraph in your article:

Although completely accurate numbers are probably not available, researchers generally agree that among ethnic minority groups in the United States, Blacks are the most likely to experience domestic violence—either male-to-female or female-to-male—followed by Hispanics and then Whites.2

 Meanwhile, Asians are the least likely to experience intimate partner violence.

Notice the emphasis on partner violence rather than parental.

On child abuse.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/2548...ethnicity/

On single parent households.  

https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/ta...13/432,431

In each of these stats the issue of stable healthy relations affects all races.  Minorities are affected more, but all demographics gave too high a rate for domestic abuse, child abuse, and single parent households.  Every One benefits from a school program about relationships, but minorities will benefit from them even more.  If there a reason to not support such a program?

Good schools try to implement "relationship" type culture on their entire campuses, whether it is a subject of one individual class or not.  There are different programs that teach this and they cost money, and I think you will find everyone on this forum in favor of such expenditures.  They raise all boats equally and no doubt are especially useful to any kids experiencing difficulties and instability no matter what the source.

[Bucky Ball]

Isn't saying and calling yourself a "critic" (prejudging) those here, doing the very same things you said you don't like ?
Are you always this condescending and high and mighty and patronizing ?
When you arrived here, and said you were a "critic" did you know anyone here ?
Were you not thinking you knew more about us than we know ourselves ?
How did you know that anyone here should share the blame for how some atheists act ?
You prejudged us.
Didn't Jesus tell you not to judge, lest you be judged ?
You don't appear to be a Christian.

[Critic]

For those that are black listed in business opportunities from Christian communities, I have a solution for you guys to try.  Talk to a church board.  The same intent I have for coming here with a specific critism, can be applied to going to church leaders, asking them to challenge their congregations to love their neighbors, and repent of this type of sin.  It might have more progress then just being angry about the situation.  Open communication in a civil manner, I think will help a lot of issues. Including the reason I came here and for being wronged by Christian communities.

I've managed small businesses for 25 years. I don't reach out to or reject religious dollars; I don't see them dollars as having any religion at all. I aim to have my staff provide great customer service while we deliver quality merch at competitive prices. I don't see any need to pander to any religious community; I see the need to practice good business etiquette.

I don't discuss religion at work and frown upon my employees doing so with customers as that can always be dicey. The last I checked, cars owned by Christians run on the same gasoline as cars run by atheists. If I am talking to any special-interest group, it's commercial drivers. That's business.

Those sound like good and reasonable business practices.  Where I was coming from is watching a family member being taken advantage of by businesses that claimed christisnity in their advertising and promotions.  Hopefully you have more costumers that stick around because they see you not doing thst,instead of more of them, leaving do to not following the same faith.  Though I've heard rumors that Utah is hard on businesses and people who aren't Mormon.  I hope that rumor is false though.

[Critic]

Pardon me but we can't get half the morons in this country to get a vaccine which will save their lives and you want them to read professional studies?  Be serious.

It's a three step process,and might not make it farther then the first step sometimes.  Step one, share the information you have, even if you don't have a source or other backing to add merit to it.  Step one is good for general conversations, getting information out, and diving into diverse perspectives without getting barried in facts, figures, or merit and falsehoods.  Step two is usually to add any source material to back up what you say.  Since I was asked, and I knew I found it before, I was confidant I could find it again.  My figuring is if someone asks for more information and you can provide it, then you can assume that they are engaged enough to read it on their own.  Step three is the general, "add more steps when needed."  The first two steps a person can always try to be prepared for, and the third step is to be ok to address other things that could be underlying issues.  The best example I have is from a book about a guy trying to build schools in foreign countries, but was initially dismayed when they spent the funds on bridges and roads instead because those were a greater need for the remote area he was trying to help with schools.

[Critic]

Aw man. I just got to the conversation after it evolved into ID and a whole host of other shit.

I just wanna say, Critic has a point (in the OP). The debate could be more civil. I've always thought so.

But... as has been mentioned... there is a history of religious rule in the west. Christians walk around with so much entitlement that it puts Millennials to utter shame. And the worst part is, they don't even realize it most of the time. etc. etc. etc.

But @Critic  I DO agree with you in principle. (at least what you said in the OP... I haven't read all you've said). And, don't be put off by Minimalist. He shoots from the hip. But he'll back up what he says with so many facts, it'll make your head spin. I think any theist would benefit from an honest conversation with him.

Thank you.  It's encouraging to hear you say that you've thought the debates should be more civil.  In my opinion both religion and politics should be able to be openly discussed because they are the things that affect a person and a community the most.  Yet these are also the things that people disagree on the most and due to the division and heated arguments they are also the ones that are most avoided in conversations.  Even among people of the same religion it can be heated conversations.  Don't know how but that atmosphere should be worked on.  Be able to talk to different perspectives as a people instead of only talking to like minded people until we have to talk to others.  But the first hurdle is to not automatically ridicule, villianize, or otherwise ignore and throw away.  

Thank you again for seeing the value in civil discussions.  Hopefully in time I can see the areas that I am privileged without knowing it, so that I am not oppressive to others who don't have the same advantages that I wasn't aware were missing in their population.

[Minimalist]

And, don't be put off by Minimalist. He shoots from the hip. But he'll back up what he says with so many facts, it'll make your head spin. I think any theist would benefit from an honest conversation with him.

Hah!  But what's in it for me!

[TheGentlemanBastard]

When the christers quit with the broad brushing, patronizing, demonizing, and general disrespect toward atheists simply for being atheists, I'll consider meeting them half way. As long as I'm constantly on the defensive from those behaviors, I\ll continue to respond defensively. If christers want a respectful tone, they need to realize it has to go both ways.

Maybe before they attend the mote in my eye, they can take car of that beam in theirs?

[Critic]

Isn't saying and calling yourself a "critic" (prejudging) those here, doing the very same things you said you don't like ?
Are you always this condescending and high and mighty and patronizing ?
When you arrived here, and said you were a "critic" did you know anyone here ?
Were you not thinking you knew more about us than we know ourselves ?
How did you know that anyone here should share the blame for how some atheists act ?
You prejudged us.
Didn't Jesus tell you not to judge, lest you be judged ?
You don't appear to be a Christian.

Hmm.  I thought calling myself critic was an honest approach.  It is why I started this conversation.  I wanted to get ahead of this cultural factor that seems to be growing in atheist narratives. Address it head on instead of waiting until it reared it's ugly head again.  As for prejudging you, I'm prejudging atheism as a whole due to a common behavior I see among atheists.  I don't know if any if you specifically are like this, and I don't assume you are.  But I expect a lot of you are though (without knowing who), so it's still a worth while discussion.  As for judge not least you be judged.  I don't think this is me any as a paralyzing rule so people can not stand true to their standards or help fix issues as they come.  But instead this is a warning.  "By the same measure you judge others you will also be judged by," type of thing.  It's a humbling standard, and in my opinion helps people not become the things they fight against if they hold the rule as true.  As for whether I am really Christian or not, that can get into a lot of other topics.  To the point of being a real Christian or not.  Jesus gave a warning that not everyone who calls Him "Lord," is really one if His followers.  It is an honest worry for me at times.  Not whether I identify as a christian, or whether I acknowledge God, and Jesus.  But instead about whether Jesus and God will acknowledge me as one of their flock.  The idea of being a false Christian is an actual concern.  One day hopefully I will hear encouraging words when I meet my maker.  Either way, I do identify myself as a christian.  That that for whatever it's worth.

[vulcanlogician]

And, don't be put off by Minimalist. He shoots from the hip. But he'll back up what he says with so many facts, it'll make your head spin. I think any theist would benefit from an honest conversation with him.

Hah!  But what's in it for me!

[Critic]

When the christers quit with the broad brushing, patronizing, demonizing, and general disrespect toward atheists simply for being atheists, I'll consider meeting them half way. As long as I'm constantly on the defensive from those behaviors, I\ll continue to respond defensively. If christers want a respectful tone, they need to realize it has to go both ways.

Maybe before they attend the mote in my eye, they can take car of that beam in theirs?

You can say Christians did it first and need to change their ways before you would consider doing the same.  However the way I've seen it I could repeat what you've said and only replace "christers" with "atheists" and it would still be an accuracy stance.  I've watched atheists paint broad brushes, ridicule and consider those as valid points, assume all Christians are dumb, abusive, crazy or otherwise demonized in their own way.  I've watched atheists tell me who I am and take the tone of superiority saying "I've been in your shoes," before they even know what shoes I've traveled in.  There are other issues, but any and all of them hit a brick wall before you have a chance because people ridicule and push buttons.  Give disrespect (for no reason) and think of that as a fun past time.  And then people react in the same way.  No progress is made, and both sides get more polarized because of that behavior. Which goes back to a path I think is a better route.  To conquor evil by doing good.  That and the ability to walk away.  Dust off your feet and say, "not my problem," and move on to others.