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A plea against bigotry
#1

A plea against bigotry
I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.  And here's my reasoning.  More and more I see atheists go on the attack against religious people, it dies not matter the religion of if the religious person did anything wrong outside of bring religious in some way.  Even Richard Dawkins encourages this behavior to publicly humiliate and ridicule anyone who's religious if you ever get the chance.  To the point that I see innocant people publicly called out as criminal, crazy, and abusive, when they show no signs of any of these.  There's still time to step away from these kinds of attitudes and not cause atheism to become a form of bigotry.  Spread the word.  Whatever ethics you hold on to use those ethics to fight bigotry from forming within your peers of Atheist.  Thank you.
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#2

A plea against bigotry
The only reason any of this is a thing is because religious fundamentalists are often abusive and dehumanizing to atheists. So blame them, not the atheists.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#3

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 07:57 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The only reason any of this is a thing is because religious fundamentalists are often abusive to atheists. So blame them, not the atheists.

Doesn't make either ok. Just saying.
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#4

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 07:57 PM)Dom Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 07:57 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The only reason any of this is a thing is because religious fundamentalists are often abusive to atheists. So blame them, not the atheists.

Doesn't make either ok. Just saying.

I'm just fucking tired of people acting like atheists are just being bigoted towards religious people for no reason, and it's somehow all the fault of atheists, when it says in the fucking Bible that atheists are "vile and corrupt". Gee, I wonder why atheists tend to have such a strong reaction against religion?
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#5

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 07:57 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The only reason any of this is a thing is because religious fundamentalists are often abusive and dehumanizing to atheists. So blame them, not the atheists.

No one else is accountable for our actions except ourselves.  But when there is a pattern of negative actions in any community or demographic, then it needs to be addressed openly.  It becomes a cultural problem at that point.  

That said though, go ahead and point out the issues you have been ostrized, ridiculed, humiliated, and wronged, as a common behavior.  If it is stopping you from bring civil yo others than it's also worth talking about here as well.  Have you been wronged repeating by a religious community? And if so how, and how often?
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#6

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 07:16 PM)Critic Wrote: I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.  And here's my reasoning.  More and more I see atheists go on the attack against religious people, it dies not matter the religion of if the religious person did anything wrong outside of bring religious in some way.  Even Richard Dawkins encourages this behavior to publicly humiliate and ridicule anyone who's religious if you ever get the chance.  To the point that I see innocant people publicly called out as criminal, crazy, and abusive, when they show no signs of any of these.  There's still time to step away from these kinds of attitudes and not cause atheism to become a form of bigotry.  Spread the word.  Whatever ethics you hold on to use those ethics to fight bigotry from forming within your peers of Atheist.  Thank you.

You do realize that in the US atheists are banned from running for any office in 7 states.  Please explain the "ethics" behind this sort of bigotry towards atheists.    I'l wait.
                                                         T4618
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#7

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:13 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 07:16 PM)Critic Wrote: I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.  And here's my reasoning.  More and more I see atheists go on the attack against religious people, it dies not matter the religion of if the religious person did anything wrong outside of bring religious in some way.  Even Richard Dawkins encourages this behavior to publicly humiliate and ridicule anyone who's religious if you ever get the chance.  To the point that I see innocant people publicly called out as criminal, crazy, and abusive, when they show no signs of any of these.  There's still time to step away from these kinds of attitudes and not cause atheism to become a form of bigotry.  Spread the word.  Whatever ethics you hold on to use those ethics to fight bigotry from forming within your peers of Atheist.  Thank you.

You do realize that in the US atheists are banned from running for any office in 7 states.  Please explain the "ethics" behind this sort of bigotry towards atheists.    I'l wait.

Which states?  Sounds like something worth bringing up to those states.  But no, I was not aware of this.  I've never tried to run for office so I don't know the rules to join the tactics that politicians engage in.  The less politician like people are the better in my opinion, so I don't relate to this outcry as much.
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#8

A plea against bigotry
If the first step to correct the growing bigotry in atheism is to address the adults against atheists, then so be it. Whatever need to be done to get to a solution against atheistic bigotry is worth discussing.
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#9

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:11 PM)Critic Wrote: That said though, go ahead and point out the issues you have been ostrized, ridiculed, humiliated, and wronged, as a common behavior.  If it is stopping you from bring civil yo others than it's also worth talking about here as well.  Have you been wronged repeating by a religious community? And if so how, and how often?

Where I live, people are friendly and invite you to join their church. No matter how you reply, whether you say you are atheist or just say "maybe later", they avoid you when you don't show up for worship. There is no "community" for atheists.
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#10

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:11 PM)Critic Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 07:57 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The only reason any of this is a thing is because religious fundamentalists are often abusive and dehumanizing to atheists. So blame them, not the atheists.

No one else is accountable for our actions except ourselves.  But when there is a pattern of negative actions in any community or demographic, then it needs to be addressed openly.  It becomes a cultural problem at that point.  

That said though, go ahead and point out the issues you have been ostrized, ridiculed, humiliated, and wronged, as a common behavior.  If it is stopping you from bring civil yo others than it's also worth talking about here as well.  Have you been wronged repeating by a religious community? And if so how, and how often?

Earliest recollection I have is one of my religious neighbors got mad at me for telling her son about evolution when I was a kid, so she gave me some Creationist reading material, which I did not read. In middle school I had a Christian teacher who mentioned intelligent design during class and claimed it was a scientific theory, so he was basically trying to indoctrinate me and the other students. In high school had a substitute teacher who randomly mentioned their beliefs about Jesus. Also in high school I had a Christian music teacher who asked if anyone was an atheist during class (I did not answer), and they ended up getting in trouble for taking down a student's political poster because they didn't like the message. I have many problems with my brother unrelated to him being a Christian, but he had asked for a Chaplain to come in for a prayer while our father was dying in the hospital, even though my father was a nonbeliever and wouldn't have wanted that. My brother told the Chaplain without my consent that I didn't believe the same as he did, and the Chaplain then said "in these situations, god has the final say", as though it were an absolute truth. Essentially, also trying to indoctrinate me as I was dealing with the eventual death of a family member. Is that enough for you?
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#11

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:23 PM)Dom Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 08:11 PM)Critic Wrote: That said though, go ahead and point out the issues you have been ostrized, ridiculed, humiliated, and wronged, as a common behavior.  If it is stopping you from bring civil yo others than it's also worth talking about here as well.  Have you been wronged repeating by a religious community? And if so how, and how often?

Where I live, people are friendly and invite you to join their church. No matter how you reply, whether you say you are atheist or just say "maybe later", they avoid you when you don't show up for worship. There is no "community" for atheists.

Sounds bad enough to bring it up.  Would you like a suggestion?
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#12

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:23 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 08:11 PM)Critic Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 07:57 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The only reason any of this is a thing is because religious fundamentalists are often abusive and dehumanizing to atheists. So blame them, not the atheists.

No one else is accountable for our actions except ourselves.  But when there is a pattern of negative actions in any community or demographic, then it needs to be addressed openly.  It becomes a cultural problem at that point.  

That said though, go ahead and point out the issues you have been ostrized, ridiculed, humiliated, and wronged, as a common behavior.  If it is stopping you from bring civil yo others than it's also worth talking about here as well.  Have you been wronged repeating by a religious community? And if so how, and how often?

Earliest recollection I have is one of my religious neighbors got mad at me for telling her son about evolution when I was a kid, so she gave me some Creationist reading material, which I did not read. In middle school I had a Christian teacher who mentioned intelligent design during class and claimed it was a scientific theory, so he was basically trying to indoctrinate me and the other students. In high school had a substitute teacher who randomly mentioned their beliefs about Jesus. Also in high school I had a Christian music teacher who asked if anyone was an atheist during class (I did not answer), and they ended up getting in trouble for taking down a student's political poster because they didn't like the message. I have many problems with my brother unrelated to him being a Christian, but he had asked for a Chaplain to come in for a prayer while our father was dying in the hospital, even though my father was a nonbeliever and wouldn't have wanted that. My brother told the Chaplain without my consent that I didn't believe the same as he did, and the Chaplain then said "in these situations, god has the final say", as though it were an absolute truth. Essentially, also trying to indoctrinate me as I was dealing with the eventual death of a family member. Is that enough for you?

Good enough is a relative term, but it's enough of a start to get the ball rolling.  With our knowing the details of each of these I can only vaguely relate to either side.  But in my opinion it sounds like the people were of a different set of philosophies than you are, and they shared their views with you.  Nothing that says they wronged you, except for the extra pressure if this is common and you can't feel at home with them around.  Again without knowing more of the details I can't say if the pressure is big enough to be considered being wronged, or just not agreeing with you and being open about it.  I don't think anyone is indoctrinated unless there is a lot more restrictive factors in play.
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#13

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:19 PM)Critic Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 08:13 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 07:16 PM)Critic Wrote: I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.  And here's my reasoning.  More and more I see atheists go on the attack against religious people, it dies not matter the religion of if the religious person did anything wrong outside of bring religious in some way.  Even Richard Dawkins encourages this behavior to publicly humiliate and ridicule anyone who's religious if you ever get the chance.  To the point that I see innocant people publicly called out as criminal, crazy, and abusive, when they show no signs of any of these.  There's still time to step away from these kinds of attitudes and not cause atheism to become a form of bigotry.  Spread the word.  Whatever ethics you hold on to use those ethics to fight bigotry from forming within your peers of Atheist.  Thank you.

You do realize that in the US atheists are banned from running for any office in 7 states.  Please explain the "ethics" behind this sort of bigotry towards atheists.    I'l wait.

Which states?  Sounds like something worth bringing up to those states.  But no, I was not aware of this.  I've never tried to run for office so I don't know the rules to join the tactics that politicians engage in.  The less politician like people are the better in my opinion, so I don't relate to this outcry as much.

It's part of the states constitution.   Not only that but if they find out you're an atheist you cannot testify in a court of law. 

Arkansas:
Quote: “No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.”

Maryland:
Quote: “That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution.”

Mississippi:
Quote: "No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this State.


North Carolina:
Quote: “The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.”

South Carolina:
Quote:  “No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.”

Tennessee:
Quote: “No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishment, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.”

Pennsylvania:
Quote: “No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth.”

Texas:
Quote: “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.”

So in these states there's a sign hanging around their constitutions that essentially say  

"Atheists need not apply" 

Bigotry comes in many forms. 
                                                         T4618
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#14

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:38 PM)Critic Wrote: But in my opinion it sounds like the people were of a different set of philosophies than you are, and they shared their views with you.   
 

Um, religious ideas like intelligent design, which is also a pseudoscience, shouldn't be expressed by a teacher during a  class, for one thing, unless a student asks about it. It was totally unprompted. Secondly, how was the Chaplain just "sharing their views" with me? They made their claim as a statement of fact and were categorically claiming I was wrong about my own perspective. And why should I have to deal with that as a family member is dying, and why is it OK for someone to bring a Chaplain in for a prayer for a nonbeliever who would not have wanted that? Thirdly, why is it OK for a music teacher, who should only be talking about music, to be antagonistic towards atheists? There's no reason why a music teacher should be bringing up their beliefs about atheists.
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#15

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:41 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 08:19 PM)Critic Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 08:13 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: You do realize that in the US atheists are banned from running for any office in 7 states.  Please explain the "ethics" behind this sort of bigotry towards atheists.    I'l wait.

Which states?  Sounds like something worth bringing up to those states.  But no, I was not aware of this.  I've never tried to run for office so I don't know the rules to join the tactics that politicians engage in.  The less politician like people are the better in my opinion, so I don't relate to this outcry as much.

It's part of the states constitution.   Not only that but if they find out you're an atheist you cannot testify in a court of law. 

Arkansas:
Quote: “No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court.”

Maryland:
Quote: “That no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God; nor shall the Legislature prescribe any other oath of office than the oath prescribed by this Constitution.”

Mississippi:
Quote: "No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office in this State.


North Carolina:
Quote: “The following persons shall be disqualified for office: First, any person who shall deny the being of Almighty God.”

South Carolina:
Quote:  “No person who denies the existence of a Supreme Being shall hold any office under this Constitution.”

Tennessee:
Quote: “No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishment, shall hold any office in the civil department of this state.”

Pennsylvania:
Quote: “No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust or profit under this Commonwealth.”

Texas:
Quote: “No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.”

So in these states there's a sign hanging around their constitutions that essentially say  

"Atheists need not apply" 

Bigotry comes in many forms. 

Thank you for this information.  I do not live in these states and was not aware if it.  Nor do I agree with it.  Not sure of what would need to be done to address this issue, but I agree that it should be addressed.  Not just for atheists, but for others too.
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#16

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 07:16 PM)Critic Wrote: I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.

As long as theists use social pressures to promote their beliefs, it is hypocrisy for them to oppose atheists using social pressures to promote their lack of belief.
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#17

A plea against bigotry
When theists...of any stripe...come here and start shitting on the carpet I will always be among the first to call them out on it.

I don't go looking for them.  But if they come here it is my observation that the only reason they do it is to start a fight.

Fuck them, and their god, and whatever silly hat they wear.


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Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#18

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:50 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 08:38 PM)Critic Wrote: But in my opinion it sounds like the people were of a different set of philosophies than you are, and they shared their views with you.   
 

Um, religious ideas like intelligent design, which is also a pseudoscience, shouldn't be expressed by a teacher during a  class, for one thing, unless a student asks about it. It was totally unprompted. Secondly, how was the Chaplain just "sharing their views" with me? They made their claim as a statement of fact and were categorically claiming I was wrong about my own perspective. And why should I have to deal with that as a family member is dying, and why is it OK for someone to bring a Chaplain in for a prayer for a nonbeliever who would not have wanted that? Thirdly, why is it OK for a music teacher, who should only be talking about music, to be antagonistic towards atheists? There's no reason why a music teacher should be bringing up their beliefs about atheists.

Again I wasn't there, but it sounds like the Chaplin was telling your brother to let God deal with it.  Not try to force you (especially at that moment) to become a Christian.  Also I wouldn't blame the cgaplin for coming if he was asked to by your family.  He's just doing what was asked of him.  As for intelligent design, there is no explainable theory to predict nature, do in a science class it don't have a lot of space to discuss.  However there are still legitine reasons to conclude the universe was an intricukate design.  Even to the poi t if saying it was engineered thus way.  A decent way to transition to the study of nature, astronomy, anatomy, biology, and physics.  And create awe for those sciences studying how the world fits together.  So yeah, though I don't think intelligent design should be removed from schools, I think it has a limited amount to discuss.
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#19

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:11 PM)Critic Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 07:57 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The only reason any of this is a thing is because religious fundamentalists are often abusive and dehumanizing to atheists. So blame them, not the atheists.

No one else is accountable for our actions except ourselves.  But when there is a pattern of negative actions in any community or demographic, then it needs to be addressed openly.  It becomes a cultural problem at that point.  

Nobody is responsible for someone else's behavior except when they are. Got it. [Image: thumbsup.gif]
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#20

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:23 PM)Dom Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 08:11 PM)Critic Wrote: That said though, go ahead and point out the issues you have been ostrized, ridiculed, humiliated, and wronged, as a common behavior.  If it is stopping you from bring civil yo others than it's also worth talking about here as well.  Have you been wronged repeating by a religious community? And if so how, and how often?

Where I live, people are friendly and invite you to join their church. No matter how you reply, whether you say you are atheist or just say "maybe later", they avoid you when you don't show up for worship. There is no "community" for atheists.

I work with interior designers.  I've had them drop my services because I politely declined their invitation to join them at chruch.  We live in a Christian centric world, in the US at least, and religious people don't understand why we're pissed off.  They figure Christianity is the default position and we're evil, baby eating folks.  Yeah, we get a little angry.
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#21

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 09:01 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 07:16 PM)Critic Wrote: I think there needs to be an open discussion of ethics and bigotry within the atheist community.

As long as theists use social pressures to promote their beliefs, it is hypocrisy for them to oppose atheists using social pressures to promote their lack of belief.

If a theist mocks, ridicules, or tries to criminalize atheists on their just being atheists, then that is worth addressing too.  Otherwise social pressure can just be summed up with the population having more people of that religion, which creates it's own influence without harming others.  It's not wrong to be openly religious or openly unreligous, as long as the people are civil to each other.  Even if one group out numbers another they should be able to practice their faith.  That is what freedom of religion should be.
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#22

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 08:19 PM)Critic Wrote: Which states?  Sounds like something worth bringing up to those states.  But no, I was not aware of this.

So your depth of understanding of the issue is as shallow as your understanding of global warming.

I love new toys.
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#23

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 09:08 PM)Critic Wrote: As for intelligent design, there is no explainable theory to predict nature

Hold up.

We do have an "explainable theory to predict nature". It's called the Standard Model. Now it's incomplete, sure, but we can still predict a lot of things with it and has been extremely useful.
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#24

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 09:21 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:
(08-15-2021, 09:08 PM)Critic Wrote: As for intelligent design, there is no explainable theory to predict nature

Hold up.

We do have an "explainable theory to predict nature". It's called the Standard Model. Now it's incomplete, sure, but it can still predict a lot of things with it.

Magic works for Christians. And for Voudoun.
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#25

A plea against bigotry
(08-15-2021, 09:18 PM)Inkubus Wrote: So your depth of understanding of the issue is as shallow as your understanding of global warming.

I love new toys.

People like this always make me kinda sad... feels like they desperately need someone - anyone - who'd just listen Confused
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