Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Sci-fi saved me from God
#26

Sci-fi saved me from God
[Image: icon_quote.jpg]Vulcanlogician:
A monopoly on tall tales is my second hypothesis for why fundie churches don't like sci-fi and fantasy.

Any other make believe, has to been seen for the make believe that it is.

Because talking snakes and very special gardens, are more plausible than lightsabers and incantations.
Reply
#27

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 12:04 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(08-03-2021, 04:32 AM)Cubeology Wrote: I believe that reading science fiction novels inoculated me against theology.

Reading any type of fiction will help inoculate you against religion. Once you know what good fiction looks like bad fiction with a side order of shame and tribalism doesn't hold up well. We owe C. S. Lewis a debt of gratitude for reducing Christianity to a tale packed with magic and talking animals.

Haha, that's why I decided as a kid that the bible was a fairy tale book.
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
Reply
#28

Sci-fi saved me from God
Quote:Reading any type of fiction will help inoculate you against religion.


 So you're suggesting that reading one type of fiction protects you again another type of fiction?

Interesting position.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
Reply
#29

Sci-fi saved me from God
^ Star Trek saved me from Star Wars.

(And given the last 3 movies, I'm grateful to have been saved. Even the worst Trek movies are head and shoulders above that mess.)
Reply
#30

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 12:49 AM)no one Wrote: Because talking snakes and very special gardens, are more plausible than lightsabers and incantations.

Unlike Star Wars, or Star Trek, or most other fiction, the Bible reads like a bad acid-trip. Talking snakes and burning bushes yammering at me and seven-headed dragons rising from the ocean, oh my!
Freedom isn't free.
The following 1 user Likes Thumpalumpacus's post:
  • Minimalist
Reply
#31

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 02:44 AM)vulcanlogician Wrote: ^ Star Trek saved me from Star Wars.

(And given the last 3 movies, I'm grateful to have been saved. Even the worst Trek movies are head and shoulders above that mess.)

I disagree with your assessment of Star Wars, I believe the original Star Wars trilogy was an artistic masterpiece. At the time it was produced the world had never seen anything like it. It attracted fans who otherwise had no interest in sci-fi. Even though it was actually space fantasy, it influenced everything that came after in the sci-fi genre in movies, including Star Trek. Although I liked "Rogue One" I think that everything after the first three was just them profiting off of the popularity of the franchise without anything new or creative, and even campy at times. Episode 7 was particularly bad as it seemed like it was just a reworking of the script for the original movie only with less interesting characters and poorer acting.  

As far as Star Trek, I am a big enough fan that I got married in a Star Trek uniform. It was of course a pioneer for sci-fi, it was the first series to take sci-fi seriously. Although they had to make many concessions to accommodate budget constraints throughout the history of the franchise and they've done quite well considering. But as far as the movies, when they were bad, they were really bad. The first movie was so boring I am surprised they ever got a green light to make a second. The third movie was entirely an excuse to bring Spock back, and the fifth was so bad it was easily one of the worst things I've ever seen, including Discovery which was a pretty big low itself. I almost forgot, the Abrams movies were full of so much nonsense it was hard to take seriously, like how a rebellious cadet somehow ended up captain of a ship literally overnight. Honestly, I think much of Star Trek taken episode by episode and movie by movie was merely good and only exceptional occasionally. Its real strength is in its totality, the whole universe it created, with the thorough backstories and optimistic future.
The following 2 users Like Cubeology's post:
  • vulcanlogician, Alan V
Reply
#32

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 02:44 AM)vulcanlogician Wrote: ^ Star Trek saved me from Star Wars.

(And given the last 3 movies, I'm grateful to have been saved. Even the worst Trek movies are head and shoulders above that mess.)

Sir, I beg you to reconsider.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/da/9f/88/...070227.jpg

The female form in all its magnificence.

No, wait, have I got the right lass? [Image: img_3549.jpg]
The following 1 user Likes Inkubus's post:
  • vulcanlogician
Reply
#33

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 03:41 AM)Cubeology Wrote:
(08-04-2021, 02:44 AM)vulcanlogician Wrote: ^ Star Trek saved me from Star Wars.

(And given the last 3 movies, I'm grateful to have been saved. Even the worst Trek movies are head and shoulders above that mess.)

I disagree with your assessment of Star Wars, I believe the original Star Wars trilogy was an artistic masterpiece.

Return Of The Jedi was an artistic masterpiece?

"Waiter, I'll have what he's having."
[Image: sea-stones-whimsy-7-sm.jpg]
The following 3 users Like Dānu's post:
  • vulcanlogician, Vera, SYZ
Reply
#34

Sci-fi saved me from God
“Sometimes, people who read my work tell me, ‘I like it, but it’s not really science fiction, is it?’” he says. “And I always feel like, no, actually, my work is exactly science fiction.” After Star Wars forever made the genre synonymous with what Chiang calls “adventure stories dressed up with lasers,” people forgot that science fiction includes the word “science” for a reason: It is supposed to be largely about exploring the boundaries of knowledge, he says. “All the things I do in my work — engaging in thought experiments, investigating philosophical questions — those are all things that science fiction does.”

Angel

(And that pretentious twat's Villeneuve's abomination, Arrival, has precious little to do with Chiang, really.)
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
The following 2 users Like Vera's post:
  • Alan V, vulcanlogician
Reply
#35

Sci-fi saved me from God
+1 for thread title, would read again.
Sci Fi was an escape for me too Smile
test signature
Reply
#36

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 01:53 PM)Vera Wrote: After Star Wars forever made the genre synonymous with what Chiang calls “adventure stories dressed up with lasers,” people forgot that science fiction includes the word “science” for a reason: It is supposed to be largely about exploring the boundaries of knowledge, he says. “All the things I do in my work — engaging in thought experiments, investigating philosophical questions — those are all things that science fiction does.”

They should refer to Star Wars and Star Trek as space fantasies, not science fiction.  Measured in that way, they are largely entertaining.
The following 3 users Like Alan V's post:
  • Vera, Thumpalumpacus, vulcanlogician
Reply
#37

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 01:21 PM)Dānu Wrote: Return Of The Jedi was an artistic masterpiece?

"Waiter, I'll have what he's having."

That is a little strong, but watch it again, particularly the end. The directing and editing of the three different simultaneous story lines is excellent.
Reply
#38

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 02:52 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(08-04-2021, 01:53 PM)Vera Wrote: After Star Wars forever made the genre synonymous with what Chiang calls “adventure stories dressed up with lasers,” people forgot that science fiction includes the word “science” for a reason: It is supposed to be largely about exploring the boundaries of knowledge, he says. “All the things I do in my work — engaging in thought experiments, investigating philosophical questions — those are all things that science fiction does.”

They should refer to Star Wars and Star Trek as space fantasies, not science fiction.  Measured in that way, they are largely entertaining.

Star Wars is clearly space fantasy, magical powers are at the center of the storyline and there is absolutely no attempt to make the technology comport with the laws of physics or even common sense. 

Star Trek on the other hand at the core attempts a realistic portrayal of the future. I'm not saying that they don't often fail, this is to be expected when you have hundreds of writers. I would actually consider Star Trek to be speculative fiction. They suggest "what if" scenarios that are often quite unrealistic such as evil mirror universes but are generally self-consistent and even logical once you accept the original premise of the episode. It also must be considered that many things that would be considered flaws were because of necessary budget concerns, such as all aliens being humanoid, and the use of the transporter which was created to simplify filming of getting to and from planets. Now if you were to ask me if I thought the ST universe is believable, then no, I do not, it assumes things (a long list) that I do not believe possible the most obvious being FTL travel. But even the hardest sci-fi often assumes technological leaps for which there is limited justification. Basically, it is sci-fi because it intends to be sci-fi.
The following 3 users Like Cubeology's post:
  • Alan V, Thumpalumpacus, vulcanlogician
Reply
#39

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 02:52 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(08-04-2021, 01:53 PM)Vera Wrote: After Star Wars forever made the genre synonymous with what Chiang calls “adventure stories dressed up with lasers,” people forgot that science fiction includes the word “science” for a reason: It is supposed to be largely about exploring the boundaries of knowledge, he says. “All the things I do in my work — engaging in thought experiments, investigating philosophical questions — those are all things that science fiction does.”

They should refer to Star Wars and Star Trek as space fantasies, not science fiction.  Measured in that way, they are largely entertaining.

What about "space laser fiction"? Seems good to me.  Tongue
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
The following 1 user Likes GenesisNemesis's post:
  • Alan V
Reply
#40

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 01:53 PM)Vera Wrote: “Sometimes, people who read my work tell me, ‘I like it, but it’s not really science fiction, is it?’” he says. “And I always feel like, no, actually, my work is exactly science fiction.” After Star Wars forever made the genre synonymous with what Chiang calls “adventure stories dressed up with lasers,” people forgot that science fiction includes the word “science” for a reason: It is supposed to be largely about exploring the boundaries of knowledge, he says. “All the things I do in my work — engaging in thought experiments, investigating philosophical questions — those are all things that science fiction does.”

Angel

(And that pretentious twat's Villeneuve's abomination, Arrival, has precious little to do with Chiang, really.)

Ah perfect, Vera.  You have exactly encapsulated the reason why I gave up on the sci-fi genre.  Too much fiction and not enough science.  You can create any absurd problem and then invent an equally absurd solution to it, call it science fiction and some moron will buy it.  Now I don't read fiction at all.  Archaeology may be dry but at least it reflects reality.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 1 user Likes Minimalist's post:
  • Vera
Reply
#41

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 02:52 PM)Alan V Wrote: They should refer to Star Wars and Star Trek as space fantasies, not science fiction.  Measured in that way, they are largely entertaining.

Well, now we have "speculative" fiction... which is how when I think I'm reading science fiction I realise quite some time into the book, I'm actually reading crappy fantasy, with ill-defined "magick" and an abominably simplistic "battle between good and evil" Sick

As we say in Bulgarian, there are passengers for every train and if people wanna cram themselves onto the fantasy, adventure, goodies vs baddies, magick, elves, swords (or lasers ;-)) and whores with hearts of gold train, it's no skin off my nose, I just want to be able to pick a SCIENCE fiction book (or see a movie) and have it be SCIENCE fiction.

(I tried watching Star Wars as an adult and couldn't even finish the first one - too childish and simplistic and just... don't know, I guess you have to have seen them as a kid. As an adult it was unbearably mediocre and not in an entertaining way either)

(08-04-2021, 04:55 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Ah perfect, Vera.  You have exactly encapsulated the reason why I gave up on the sci-fi genre.  Too much fiction and not enough science.  You can create any absurd problem and then invent an equally absurd solution to it, call it science fiction and some moron will buy it.  Now I don't read fiction at all.  Archaeology may be dry but at least it reflects reality.

Ted Chiang and Greg Egan. Seriously, the thought experiments and questions those two raise in their works (I've only read Egan's stories and novellas so far, am halfway through my first novel of his) never cease to fascinate (and restore a bit of faith in the human mind). They are pure thought experiments and explore so many different aspects of what is to be human (among a myriad of other things)

And yet, in a society way too focused on adventures and heroes, and luuuuurve and feelz, I've actually heard Egan's work "accused" of being too unsentimental or some such drivel. I've seen words like "his sheer cold-heartedness" and I'm always left gaping. There is nothing cold or unfeeling about his work but I guess nowadays you can't go exploring complex ideas and phenomena without a will they/won't they romantic subplot and, preferably, goofy comic relief. Facepalm
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
The following 1 user Likes Vera's post:
  • Alan V
Reply
#42

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 02:52 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(08-04-2021, 01:53 PM)Vera Wrote: After Star Wars forever made the genre synonymous with what Chiang calls “adventure stories dressed up with lasers,” people forgot that science fiction includes the word “science” for a reason: It is supposed to be largely about exploring the boundaries of knowledge, he says. “All the things I do in my work — engaging in thought experiments, investigating philosophical questions — those are all things that science fiction does.”

They should refer to Star Wars and Star Trek as space fantasies, not science fiction.  Measured in that way, they are largely entertaining.

Star Wars is, to my eye, a Western set in space -- Good Guy, Bad Guy, posses lining up behind them, a big shootout at the end.

To Chiang's point, not all science fiction is about examining the prospects of science. The Dune series (original three), for instance, while they feature advanced technology as both incidental to scenes, as well as in the plotline (Butlerian Jihad against computers), mainly focuses on exploring the effects of religion on societies, the nature of power-politics, and human effects upon ecology.
Freedom isn't free.
The following 2 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post:
  • Alan V, skyking
Reply
#43

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 04:55 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(08-04-2021, 01:53 PM)Vera Wrote: “Sometimes, people who read my work tell me, ‘I like it, but it’s not really science fiction, is it?’” he says. “And I always feel like, no, actually, my work is exactly science fiction.” After Star Wars forever made the genre synonymous with what Chiang calls “adventure stories dressed up with lasers,” people forgot that science fiction includes the word “science” for a reason: It is supposed to be largely about exploring the boundaries of knowledge, he says. “All the things I do in my work — engaging in thought experiments, investigating philosophical questions — those are all things that science fiction does.”

Angel

(And that pretentious twat's Villeneuve's abomination, Arrival, has precious little to do with Chiang, really.)

Ah perfect, Vera.  You have exactly encapsulated the reason why I gave up on the sci-fi genre.  Too much fiction and not enough science.  You can create any absurd problem and then invent an equally absurd solution to it, call it science fiction and some moron will buy it.  Now I don't read fiction at all.  Archaeology may be dry but at least it reflects reality.

Since when does archaeology or history, in general, reflect reality. People dig up miscellaneous bones and artifacts and then try to concoct theories on what life was once like. You're mistaken if you think this speculation on ancient cultures comports well with actual history. And history, in general, is as generally slanted and fictionalized to such a degree that any attempt to come to the truth of it all is impossible. Hard science fiction is not much different from studying ancient cultures just in the reverse direction, it takes a likely advance and tries to concoct a theory on how it will affect the human condition.
The following 1 user Likes Cubeology's post:
  • Alan V
Reply
#44

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 10:59 PM)Cubeology Wrote: Since when does archaeology or history, in general, reflect reality. People dig up miscellaneous bones and artifacts and then try to concoct theories on what life was once like. You're mistaken if you think this speculation on ancient cultures comports well with actual history. And history, in general, is as generally slanted and fictionalized to such a degree that any attempt to come to the truth of it all is impossible. Hard science fiction is not much different from studying ancient cultures just in the reverse direction, it takes a likely advance and tries to concoct a theory on how it will affect the human condition.

What is your understanding of the word "concoct".
Reply
#45

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 11:09 PM)Inkubus Wrote:
(08-04-2021, 10:59 PM)Cubeology Wrote: Since when does archaeology or history, in general, reflect reality. People dig up miscellaneous bones and artifacts and then try to concoct theories on what life was once like. You're mistaken if you think this speculation on ancient cultures comports well with actual history. And history, in general, is as generally slanted and fictionalized to such a degree that any attempt to come to the truth of it all is impossible. Hard science fiction is not much different from studying ancient cultures just in the reverse direction, it takes a likely advance and tries to concoct a theory on how it will affect the human condition.

What is your understanding of the word "concoct".

Why would you ask this? It is just a common word whose meaning isn't very ambiguous. I find the Google definition satisfactory "create or devise (a story or plan)."
Reply
#46

Sci-fi saved me from God
I have a close family member who loves science fiction. LOVES it. They're a life-long voracious reader of sci-fi, since childhood. Yet they're very religious (Catholic), more so than most people I know.

I'm not convinced, generally speaking, that sci-fi is a path away from religion. If it is, imagine what science fact could do. Wink

-Teresa
There is in the universe only one true divide, one real binary, life and death. Either you are living or you are not. Everything else is molten, malleable.

-Susan Faludi, In the Darkroom
Reply
#47

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 10:59 PM)Cubeology Wrote: Since when does archaeology or history, in general, reflect reality. People dig up miscellaneous bones and artifacts and then try to concoct theories on what life was once like. You're mistaken if you think this speculation on ancient cultures comports well with actual history.

Firstly, archaeology is based upon material facts, from which inferences may be drawn. Those inferences may or may not be correct, but they're a damned sight better than climbing up our own asses about what has happened in the past. Archaeology can identify when a culture gained this or that technology, made this or that leap of invention (cuneiform, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?), ascertain whether mythos might have a root in history, or even discover that ancients were more advanced than we thought (for instance, batteries in ancient Iraq, or the Antikythera discovery).

Of course we have to guess at what life was like before, and even during, historical phases. And of course we make errors in our hypotheses, guesses, and theories. But there's a lot we can figure out, even from trash-heaps and bone-piles, shipwrecks and ruined cities.

Physical anthropology is a solid science, tied in with radiometry, geostratigraphy, genetic studies, and other convergent sources of evidence.

Again: we will always get things wrong, but that's fine. Science works upon mistakes.

I'd be interested in hearing your version of "actual history" that you think we're misunderstanding. What do you think we're misunderstanding? Be specific, and where possible, link sources?
Freedom isn't free.
The following 3 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post:
  • Dancefortwo, Inkubus, julep
Reply
#48

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 10:59 PM)Cubeology Wrote:
(08-04-2021, 04:55 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
(08-04-2021, 01:53 PM)Vera Wrote: “Sometimes, people who read my work tell me, ‘I like it, but it’s not really science fiction, is it?’” he says. “And I always feel like, no, actually, my work is exactly science fiction.” After Star Wars forever made the genre synonymous with what Chiang calls “adventure stories dressed up with lasers,” people forgot that science fiction includes the word “science” for a reason: It is supposed to be largely about exploring the boundaries of knowledge, he says. “All the things I do in my work — engaging in thought experiments, investigating philosophical questions — those are all things that science fiction does.”

Angel

(And that pretentious twat's Villeneuve's abomination, Arrival, has precious little to do with Chiang, really.)

Ah perfect, Vera.  You have exactly encapsulated the reason why I gave up on the sci-fi genre.  Too much fiction and not enough science.  You can create any absurd problem and then invent an equally absurd solution to it, call it science fiction and some moron will buy it.  Now I don't read fiction at all.  Archaeology may be dry but at least it reflects reality.

Since when does archaeology or history, in general, reflect reality. People dig up miscellaneous bones and artifacts and then try to concoct theories on what life was once like. You're mistaken if you think this speculation on ancient cultures comports well with actual history. And history, in general, is as generally slanted and fictionalized to such a degree that any attempt to come to the truth of it all is impossible. Hard science fiction is not much different from studying ancient cultures just in the reverse direction, it takes a likely advance and tries to concoct a theory on how it will affect the human condition.

Never heard of "peer review," huh?  Got it.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 2 users Like Minimalist's post:
  • Thumpalumpacus, Inkubus
Reply
#49

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-05-2021, 01:56 AM)Tres Leches Wrote: I have a close family member who loves science fiction. LOVES it. They're a life-long voracious reader of sci-fi, since childhood. Yet they're very religious (Catholic), more so than most people I know.

I'm not convinced, generally speaking, that sci-fi is a path away from religion. If it is, imagine what science fact could do. Wink

-Teresa

One does not exclude the other, a solid background in the sciences makes it more entertaining when an author is true to what is known, and then "runs with it".
test signature
The following 2 users Like skyking's post:
  • Tres Leches, Thumpalumpacus
Reply
#50

Sci-fi saved me from God
(08-04-2021, 01:13 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Reading any type of fiction will help inoculate you against religion.


 So you're suggesting that reading one type of fiction protects you again another type of fiction?

Interesting position.

Well, it will help protect you from believing that it's real. Magical thinking is tough to maintain when you know that magic is make believe.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)