Misanthropy

[mordant]

I hate some people sometimes and love some people sometimes. No man stands before the same judge twice, for he is not the same man and they are not the same judge. Something like that.

My wife has been fascinated with the Palestinian story now that the govt of Israel has drawn so much attention to it. As a former investigative journalist she knows how to find her way to all the gnarly videos of disemboweled children and people being carved out of collapsed buildings, etc. They seem to be INCREDIBLY resilient and strong in the face of adversity in ways I would never manage, and admirably family oriented. And of course at the same time there are those who vilify the same people as mindless terrorists and low-lifes.

I think there's a basis to see both sides in any individual. I have a brother who is a fundagelical, age 80, who just had a quadruple bypass surgery. He is being his usual asshole self in rehab but at the same time I understand he feels out of control and is terrified by what is happening to him.

In most things in life, I don't know whether to laugh or cry, whether to love or loathe. Humans are too complex and flawed to be worthy of pure love or pure hatred in nearly all cases.

[pattylt]

I hate some people sometimes and love some people sometimes. No man stands before the same judge twice, for he is not the same man and they are not the same judge. Something like that.

My wife has been fascinated with the Palestinian story now that the govt of Israel has drawn so much attention to it. As a former investigative journalist she knows how to find her way to all the gnarly videos of disemboweled children and people being carved out of collapsed buildings, etc. They seem to be INCREDIBLY resilient and strong in the face of adversity in ways I would never manage, and admirably family oriented. And of course at the same time there are those who vilify the same people as mindless terrorists and low-lifes.

I think there's a basis to see both sides in any individual. I have a brother who is a fundagelical, age 80, who just had a quadruple bypass surgery. He is being his usual asshole self in rehab but at the same time I understand he feels out of control and is terrified by what is happening to him.

In most things in life, I don't know whether to laugh or cry, whether to love or loathe. Humans are too complex and flawed to be worthy of pure love or pure hatred in nearly all cases.

That’s really well said and I agree.

[no one]

Hoomans are far less than the sum of their parts.

Individually, most of them are decent.

As a species though, hoomans are nowhere near decent.

[Alan V]

Hoomans are far less than the sum of their parts.

Individually, most of them are decent.

As a species though, hoomans are nowhere near decent.

Philosophical misanthropy, as described in the linked article, isn't about hating individuals, but about disliking and distrusting human nature -- which is a big part of who we all are.  Hatred itself, as such, is usually seen as a part of our human nature which we should dislike and distrust, as are tribalism, opportunism, and emotionalism in general IMO.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/139/Phi...isanthropy

Although I may feel anger at the behaviors of individuals from time to time, I feel sorry for humanity in general.  We did not create our own nature, and as physical beings we can't escape it or transcend it, only minimize it.  This is why I presently take philosophical misanthropy rather seriously.

[no one]

For a creature so intelligent, they sure are senselessly stupid.

[brewerb]

Fuckin hermits, why can't they just get the hell away from me!

[mordant]

Hoomans are far less than the sum of their parts.

Individually, most of them are decent.

As a species though, hoomans are nowhere near decent.

Philosophical misanthropy, as described in the linked article, isn't about hating individuals, but about disliking and distrusting human nature -- which is a big part of who we all are.  Hatred itself, as such, is usually seen as a part of our human nature which we should dislike and distrust, as are tribalism, opportunism, and emotionalism in general IMO.

https://philosophynow.org/issues/139/Phi...isanthropy

Although I may feel anger at the behaviors of individuals from time to time, I feel sorry for humanity in general.  We did not create our own nature, and as physical beings we can't escape it or transcend it, only minimize it.  This is why I presently take philosophical misanthropy rather seriously.

This is why I lean toward hard determinism also. At the species level, at any rate. Because humans will still be humans 100,000 years from now. We will by then have gone through countless boom/bust cycles (assuming we don't render the planet uninhabitable in the process), back and forth between relative freedom and authoritarianism.

[Alan V]

This is why I lean toward hard determinism also. At the species level, at any rate. Because humans will still be humans 100,000 years from now. We will by then have gone through countless boom/bust cycles (assuming we don't render the planet uninhabitable in the process), back and forth between relative freedom and authoritarianism.

Even while I was defending free will in other discussions, I occasionally reminded people that I would much rather be discussing when we had free will and when we didn't.  I never proposed that our free will was absolute.  Instead, I tried to convey the idea that while our ends were largely fixed by our biology, the means we chose to achieve those ends were largely improvised based on our assessments of our circumstances and our possibilities.  That's what I, at least, consider to be free will.

However, with over-population, acquisitiveness, and intrusive technologies, even our fixed ends can be destructive or toxic to the natural environment.  So while I think that we humans could still choose to minimize our wants to be more in line with our needs, I no longer believe we will do that quickly enough, even if it is still possible, because of our human nature.  That human nature includes acquired habits which are very hard for us to change once we have received positive feedback for our efforts.  And our modern world provides a remarkable amount of positive feedback which preys on various human desires and weaknesses, through our various consumer cultures.

We will certainly get more and more negative feedback from the natural world in the future, but within a few decades we will likely be committed to largely irreversible climate change.  I hope I'm wrong, but this is why I have become something of a misanthropist.

[Dānu]

I had some thoughts on free will a little while back. So I started reading to see if I was covering ground previously explored. I quickly realized how little I knew about what had been thought and written about free will. I think most people who discuss free will on the internet are dealing from a much smaller deck than is available in the literature. Most people have very basic ideas about free will, even if they've read a little bit on the subject.

[mordant]

I had some thoughts on free will a little while back.  So I started reading to see if I was covering ground previously explored.  I quickly realized how little I knew about what had been thought and written about free will.  I think most people who discuss free will on the internet are dealing from a much smaller deck than is available in the literature.  Most people have very basic ideas about free will, even if they've read a little bit on the subject.

Yes it is a surprisingly extensive topic area. And one where you can make convincing arguments for and against. As such I tend to treat it as not a super productive area of inquiry, since for all practical purposes ... the only freedom of choice I really feel is always from a limited menu of often shitty options anyway. The main thing I try to keep in mind is that if you think outside the box a little bit (usually with less than default concern for What Others Might Think if you do this or that), you often have a bigger menu of shitty options than you think you do, lol.

[Dexta]

I personally find the free will discussion very tiresome these days. I've made my mind up - people need to be held fully accountable for our actions, and that's just what society will do (eg. crime), regardless of whether free will actually exists or not. Holding ourselves and others fully responsible for our actions also logically leads to improved conduct by individuals...far better than might occur if they were let "off the hook" through being deemed to not have free will.

[Dānu]

I personally find the free will discussion very tiresome these days. I've made my mind up - people need to be held fully accountable for our actions, and that's just what society will do (eg. crime), regardless of whether free will actually exists or not. Holding ourselves and others fully responsible for our actions also logically leads to improved conduct by individuals...far better than might occur if they were let "off the hook" through being deemed to not have free will.

I'm reminded of the Penn Gilette joke about how he rapes and murders as much as he wants, and the amount he wants is zero. I have a feeling people would be no worse if they weren't held accountable. Those inclined to bad acts would still be inclined, and those not inclined wouldn't change.

[Dexta]

I personally find the free will discussion very tiresome these days. I've made my mind up - people need to be held fully accountable for our actions, and that's just what society will do (eg. crime), regardless of whether free will actually exists or not. Holding ourselves and others fully responsible for our actions also logically leads to improved conduct by individuals...far better than might occur if they were let "off the hook" through being deemed to not have free will.

I'm reminded of the Penn Gilette joke about how he rapes and murders as much as he wants, and the amount he wants is zero.  I have a feeling people would be no worse if they weren't held accountable.  Those inclined to bad acts would still be inclined, and those not inclined wouldn't change.

Er, you're saying the idea of going to prison doesn't act as a deterrent, at all, for anybody? That's not true, I nearly went to prison once and the thought scared the shit out of me! I've never been more law abiding than I am now, since that scare.

[epronovost]

I'm reminded of the Penn Gilette joke about how he rapes and murders as much as he wants, and the amount he wants is zero.  I have a feeling people would be no worse if they weren't held accountable.  Those inclined to bad acts would still be inclined, and those not inclined wouldn't change.

Er, you're saying the idea of going to prison doesn't act as a deterrent, at all, for anybody? That's not true, I nearly went to prison once and the thought scared the shit out of me! I've never been more law abiding than I am now, since that scare.

I think neither of you are correct. I think Danu underestimate the importance of accountability has on people's behaviors. Impunity does grow boldness and antipathy, but I also disagree with Dextra's views of prison as a good deterrent. Harsh sentencing, heavy policing and harsh prison living conditions breed crimes and encourages recidivism. What people need in my opinion is the idea that they will be held responsible and accountable for their actions, but not in a way that will reinforce their antipathy or render society itself cruel and harsh. Being held accountable and responsible doesn't mean punished even if punishment can be part of it on certain occasions.

[Dexta]

What people need in my opinion is the idea that they will be held responsible and accountable for their actions, but not in a way that will reinforce their antipathy or render society itself cruel and harsh.

I agree - the Nordic model of "incarcerated, loving rehabilitation" is far superior to the USA/UK current models - much lower rates of recidivism under the Nordic model and also harsh/inhumane prison conditions is like trying to fight crime with crime. Fight crime with decency and even love, with some deterrent component (ie: lack of liberty). We do however have Anders Breivik....he knew Norway's prisons were "soft." The saga continues.

[Dexta]

What people need in my opinion is the idea that they will be held responsible and accountable for their actions, but not in a way that will reinforce their antipathy or render society itself cruel and harsh.

I agree - the Nordic model of "incarcerated, loving rehabilitation" is far superior to the USA/UK current models - much lower rates of recidivism under the Nordic model and also harsh/inhumane prison conditions is like trying to fight crime with crime. Fight crime with decency and even love, with some deterrent component (ie: lack of liberty). We do however have Anders Breivik....he knew Norway's prisons were "soft." The saga continues.

Anders Breivik: Mass murderer demands better video games and threatens hunger strike over jail 'hell'

Looks like he thought he would be entitled to some form of pampered luxury. 

[epronovost]

I agree - the Nordic model of "incarcerated, loving rehabilitation" is far superior to the USA/UK current models - much lower rates of recidivism under the Nordic model and also harsh/inhumane prison conditions is like trying to fight crime with crime. Fight crime with decency and even love, with some deterrent component (ie: lack of liberty). We do however have Anders Breivik....he knew Norway's prisons were "soft." The saga continues.

Anders Breivik: Mass murderer demands better video games and threatens hunger strike over jail 'hell'

Looks like he thought he would be entitled to some form of pampered luxury. 

He didn't get them though (well maybe he did now since this article is 10 years old). The guy can ask whatever he wants; it doesn't mean he is going to get it. He reminds me of Valery Fabrikant, a mass shooter in my province, who is well known for basically spending his time in prison trying to sue people and posting rants a bit everywhere. He has also been allowed to publish scientific material though and has been quite prolific (he was a mechanical engineer professor).

[Dexta]

Maybe a kind of tiered prison system, where mass shooters and their like are given "hell," whereas non-lethal violent crime etc is given better, more caring prison conditions would be more appropriate/sensitive. It seems to little old ignorant me that the only scale we currently use in deciding retributive justice is "length of stay inside." A bit blunt, as tools go.

[mordant]

Er, you're saying the idea of going to prison doesn't act as a deterrent, at all, for anybody? That's not true, I nearly went to prison once and the thought scared the shit out of me! I've never been more law abiding than I am now, since that scare.

I think neither of you are correct. I think Danu underestimate the importance of accountability has on people's behaviors. Impunity does grow boldness and antipathy, but I also disagree with Dextra's views of prison as a good deterrent. Harsh sentencing, heavy policing and harsh prison living conditions breed crimes and encourages recidivism. What people need in my opinion is the idea that they will be held responsible and accountable for their actions, but not in a way that will reinforce their antipathy or render society itself cruel and harsh. Being held accountable and responsible doesn't mean punished even if punishment can be part of it on certain occasions.

Accountability is much more extensive a concept than edge cases / extremes like imprisonment for serious crimes. It's the employee on probation, someone getting an ultimatum from a spouse for treating them badly, or just some dudes playing a game of basketball and razzing one of their team for cheating or even for not 100% having their head in the game (IOW it can be accountability for doing one's personal best, not merely avoiding some overt misconduct).

It can be voluntary as well. I want to quit smoking or lose weight or whatever, so I announce it to my friends and family, and if I fall off the wagon I have to in some sense answer to them as well as to myself. And if I don't fall off the wagon I ideally get encouragement and reinforcing praise.

[Kathryn L]

I tend to view humans as fundamentally good with the potential to do harm, and that most problems that exist within humanity are the result of a handful of companies or individuals at the top that have an inordinate amount of control or influence over others due to historical reasons or because they've accumulated massive amounts of wealth with little to no real accountability for it.  I also view a lack of overall protection or value for the poorest of society as the number one problem.  If you cannot care for the poorest or the most downtrodden within society, you cannot truly care for the rest of it.

[Dānu]

Humans are neither good nor bad. We are opportunists. That can be a good thing or a bad thing. I think it's neither, necessarily.

[rocinantexyz]

In my experience; everyone acts and speaks as if we have freewill; even the people who say freewill doesn't exist.

If someone tells you it you don't have freewill; never accept responsibility for anything with that person. In my experience, you'll quickly find they do in fact believe in freewill.

[Dānu]

In my experience; everyone acts and speaks as if we have freewill; even the people who say freewill doesn't exist.

If someone tells you it you don't have freewill; never accept responsibility for anything with that person. In my experience, you'll quickly find they do in fact believe in freewill.

I was reading the intro to the Oxford Handbook of Free Will. It suggests that Strawson argues that we believe in the concept of free will so that we can have the constellation of attitudes that cluster around it like regret, responsibility, guilt, and so on. At least that's what it sounded like. I haven't read Strawson yet.

[Alan V]

Humans are neither good nor bad.  We are opportunists.  That can be a good thing or a bad thing.  I think it's neither, necessarily.

Considering climate change, our opportunism seems largely maladaptive in present circumstances.

[Rhythmcs]

We may have ideas about decency and a balance of nature interfering with our concept of maladaptation. That we have become so effective we can change the planet is not a sign of our being maladapted. It's why we're the apex species. Take a step back. We arose on a meatgrinder of a planet. What sort of creatures did we expect that to produce? That we even care (insomuch as we do) about things like climate change are aberrations in the larger catalogue of earths creatures. Would anything capable of dethroning us be better, or worse, on these counts we deem important? Hell, look at the trees. When this breifly became the planet of the trees, they killed damn near everything else, the atmosphere was utterly poisoned, and all life thereafter grew out of that mound of dead bodies. Even us, especially us.