A Naturalistic World

[Bucky Ball]

It was so hilarious watching the clown-show at Liberty University with the moral midgets (the Falwells)
who espoused "family values".

[Minimalist]

I do.  Particularly religitards who think their fairy tales give them the right to tell every one else how to live.

When you take away religion, you still have people who think they have the right to tell everyone else how to live.

Let's get rid of religion and see how much the world improves.

[Kim]

Similarly, I find it interesting that many atheists refer to religion as if it's a detrimental external force affecting humans. If there is no god, religion was created by humans. If you think religion is horrible, then you should think humans are horrible.

I do see religion as a detrimental external force effecting humans. I have no problem with faith. The two are different. Perhaps the two have been long conflated & therefore confuse many of the faithful.

Faith is faith, it does not need religion to continue to evolve. However, religion is different - it needs faith to continue. Religion needs faith and, it apparently needs a steady stream of followers, money, publicity, adulation, etc., from the faithful, in order to maintain control enough to survive. Religion is an industry.

I don't think humans are horrible. However, I do think religion uses humans - it hijacks their faith & very often tricks them into doing horrible things.

If you think there is a god, that's your thing but, I'm not going to tell you how you should think about it. I couldn't care less.

[Percie]

Let's get rid of religion and see how much the world improves.

Move to China and let us know.

[Percie]

I do see religion as a detrimental external force effecting humans.  I have no problem with faith.  The two are different.  Perhaps the two have been long conflated & therefore confuse many of the faithful.  

Faith is faith, it does not need religion to continue to evolve.  However, religion is different - it needs faith to continue.  Religion needs faith and, it apparently needs a steady stream of followers, money, publicity, adulation, etc., from the faithful, in order to maintain control enough to survive.  Religion is an industry.

I don't think humans are horrible.  However, I do think religion uses humans - it hijacks their faith & very often tricks them into doing horrible things.  

If you think there is a god, that's your thing but, I'm not going to tell you how you should think about it.  I couldn't care less.

Are you a theist? If not, you're missing the point on external.  If there is no god, religion is a force of humans, not a force external to humans.

[Bucky Ball]

Let's get rid of religion and see how much the world improves.

Move to China and let us know.

https://www.justice.gov/eoir/page/file/1...20Buddhism.
Wrong again, bozo.

"An official Chinese government statement recognizes five major religions practiced in
China—Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Catholicism, and Protestantism—as well as many folk
beliefs. Most ethnic Tibetans practice a distinct form of Buddhism, Tibetan Buddhism. The
Uighurs, who primarily live in the Xinjiang Autonomous Region, are predominantly
Muslim. Over a dozen religious or spiritual groups are banned in China as “evil cults,”
including Falun Gong and the Church of Almighty God. Seven religious associations are
listed as officially recognized national religious associations.
The Chinese Constitution guarantees citizens “freedom of religious belief” and the
protection of “normal religious activities.” The Constitution prohibits “making use of
religion to engage in activities that disrupt public order, impair the health of citizens, or
interfere with the educational system of the State” and provides that “[r]eligious bodies and
religious affairs are not subject to any foreign domination.”
“Organizing and using cult organizations to obstruct the enforcement of laws” is a criminal
offense punishable by up to life imprisonment. Organizing or inciting others to engage in
“cult” activities or using “cults” or the “guise of religion” to disturb social order or to harm
others’ health is subject to public security penalties, which may include detention for up to
fifteen days. ".

[Alan V]

Let's get rid of religion and see how much the world improves.

Each individual should reject religion on his or her own as motivated by a factual education.  

[Minimalist]

In far too much of the world such an endeavor would get rocks thrown at their heads.

Cuz, you know, religitards are "peaceful."

[TheGentlemanBastard]

Let's get rid of religion and see how much the world improves.

Move to China and let us know.

China didn't dispose of religion. It replaced worship of gawd(s) with worship of state. Care to try again?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Similarly, I find it interesting that many atheists refer to religion as if it's a detrimental external force affecting humans. If there is no god, religion was created by humans. If you think religion is horrible, then you should think humans are horrible.

Many humans are horrible. Particularly the blind followers who obey command precepts without stopping to think about the morality of their actions. The Communist guards of GULags, the mass murders out and about nowadays, the tyrants fine with dropping their opponents into vats of acid. We all agree these people are horrible, right?

But not all humans are horrible. Many are not.

Be it noted that not all humans started religions, not all religions have gods, not all humans are zealots about their faith, and not all humans have a faith. So there's some nuance you've glossed over in your rush to defend your own immoral godling.

Your god allegedly commanded Abraham to kill his son, and Abraham was purt' near about to start the process when your god said, "No, Abe, just joking, put the little one back in his pram." What lessons on command morality can we draw from that tale? If your godling was truly omniscient, he'd have no reason to test Abe's faith; he'd know already the Abraham was a believer fervent enough to kill his own child.

Your god would also know what sort of angst this would cause the father, being stuck on this knight's fork of choosing love of god or love of son. Such a trollish demand from your god is to me not only immoral, but pathetically so. You worship a cunt.

ETA: It should also be pointed out that the Christian faith in particular regards all humans as fatally flawed at birth, doomed to Hell unless they accept the story of Christ. Now, if your god is perfectly good, and omnipotent, how can he create such a flawed animal as us? How does a perfect Carpenter build a crooked cabinet?

[Minimalist]

Let's get rid of religion and see how much the world improves.

Move to China and let us know.

Dumbass.  You can't get rid of it by decree.  Not while there are so many shitheads like you who can't function unless they think there is a Fairy God Father watching over you.

Time to grow up, son.  You're all alone in the universe.  And when you're dead there is not a magical sky kingdom where you can live forever.  You are just not that important.

[Cavebear]

Let's get rid of religion and see how much the world improves.

Each individual should reject religion on his or her own as motivated by a factual education.  

Let reality rule!

[julep]

Atheists typically understand that this is a naturalistic world, with all that implies.  Yet they seem to express a fair amount of moral outrage when people behave naturalistically, i.e. in an opportunistic way to benefit themselves and their families and tribes.  Such are human default settings, as unfortunate as they may be in certain ways.  Transcending such limitations is a matter of education which not everyone can access.  Most people even seem to think it is somehow disloyal to take a wider perspective.

So while I understand moral objections idealistically, I don't understand why this situation surprises any atheist to the point of moral outrage.  It's not like atheists are in any position to insist that people should behave differently.

Perhaps someone could explain that to me.

Similarly, I find it interesting that many atheists refer to religion as if it's a detrimental external force affecting humans. If there is no god, religion was created by humans. If you think religion is horrible, then you should think humans are horrible.

Yes. Humans are indeed horrible, both intentionally and un-, and they’ve created gods that reflect that.  So what’s your point?

[Percie]

Be it noted that not all humans started religions, not all religions have gods, not all humans are zealots about their faith, and not all humans have a faith. So there's some nuance you've glossed over in your rush to defend your own immoral godling.

Huh? I said absolutely nothing in defense of the Christian god.

[Percie]

Yes. Humans are indeed horrible, both intentionally and un-, and they’ve created gods that reflect that.  So what’s your point?

The point is the contradiction in the thoughts of many atheists, who believe that people are basically good, but are held back from that goodness by religion. That could be possible if religion were a thing external to humans, but to an atheist that isn't the case. If religion is horrible, then people are horrible. Take away the religion, you still have horrible people.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Be it noted that not all humans started religions, not all religions have gods, not all humans are zealots about their faith, and not all humans have a faith. So there's some nuance you've glossed over in your rush to defend your own immoral godling.

Huh? I said absolutely nothing in defense of the Christian god.

... as if your motivation isn't plain.

Now answer my questions, please?

[GenesisNemesis]

I will say it never made much sense to me when my fellow leftists make fun of Republicans for being "inbred", for example, or to make fun of gun owners for having "tiny penises" (and we don't even have knowledge if they're inbred or have tiny penises the vast majority of the time). Both things are factors people have no control over. I'd much rather that people make fun of things that people do have control over, and wouldn't be much different from someone making fun of me for being born with a genetic disorder. It also seems rather hypocritical to promote feminism but perpetuate the myth that women generally love large penises.

[Szuchow]

I do.  Particularly religitards who think their fairy tales give them the right to tell every one else how to live.

When you take away religion, you still have people who think they have the right to tell everyone else how to live.

Let's get rid of religion and see how much the world improves.

Lenin tried it and ended with having marxism-leninism as religion alongside Orthodox faith which while suppressed still existed,

[Szuchow]

Similarly, I find it interesting that many atheists refer to religion as if it's a detrimental external force affecting humans. If there is no god, religion was created by humans. If you think religion is horrible, then you should think humans are horrible.

I do see religion as a detrimental external force effecting humans.  I have no problem with faith.  The two are different.  Perhaps the two have been long conflated & therefore confuse many of the faithful.  

Faith is faith, it does not need religion to continue to evolve.  However, religion is different - it needs faith to continue.  Religion needs faith and, it apparently needs a steady stream of followers, money, publicity, adulation, etc., from the faithful, in order to maintain control enough to survive.  Religion is an industry.

I don't think humans are horrible.  However, I do think religion uses humans - it hijacks their faith & very often tricks them into doing horrible things.  

If you think there is a god, that's your thing but, I'm not going to tell you how you should think about it.  I couldn't care less.

I would say that faith is the root of the problem - christians, nazis, bolsheviks, khmers... All of them killed because they believed, because they had faith, their crimes weren't committed in the name of lack of it. It was faith that made them commit atrocities an so I hold it in contempt.

And about humans. We may not be horrible but the fact that one of most popular deities of modern times is space Hitler isn't accident.

[Kim]

Are you a theist?

No. Are you?
Theist meaning, adherence to a faith there is a god/gods.

Do you have a faith and do you attach your faith to or, manifest it in some particular god figure? For instance, some people of faith feel the earth is their god figure. If you are a theist, do you feel there is a god/gods -a being- or is your god a particular thing?

If you are a theist, do you also subscribe to a particular set of laws or precepts which reflects your allegiance to your god/gods? If so, who made up these precepts & how did you come to know & adhere to them?

If not, you're missing the point on external.  If there is no god, religion is a force of humans, not a force external to humans.

I view the concept of a god or gods which oversee & control all things, as an idea created by human beings to explain activity beyond human control, as well as justification for human activity. I also view religion as an idea created by human beings to very specifically control and/or justify human activity.

I view these - god / religion - as very separate concepts.
Both are concepts of control but, the god concept is fairly passive-agessive while, religion is quite specific and intentional.

I feel I do not understand what you mean by "force of" and "external to". Please explain your use of these terms within this context.

[Inkubus]

Be it noted that not all humans started religions, not all religions have gods, not all humans are zealots about their faith, and not all humans have a faith. So there's some nuance you've glossed over in your rush to defend your own immoral godling.

Huh? I said absolutely nothing in defense of the Christian god.

Well whichever god you believe in; use that one.

[SYZ]

The point is the contradiction in the thoughts of many atheists, who believe that people are basically good, but are held back from that goodness by religion. That could be possible if religion were a thing external to humans, but to an atheist that isn't the case. If religion is horrible, then people are horrible.

I'm sorry, but it's obvious you have virtually no concept of what atheists think.  How could
you, considering you seriously believe that—despite an absolute lack of supporting, empirical
evidence—that supernatural entities or paranormal phenomena exist in the real world?

And of course religion is a human response to an externalised asseveration.  You only believe in
your God because someone pointed to a holy book, with all its dogmatic content, and said "yes,
there is a God" and this book proves it.  Nobody—including you—has ever seen, heard, or touched
God itself.  You've simply accepted the word of someone else, who in their turn just blindly accepted
the claim... and so it's gone on, generation after generation.  Thankfully, the 21st century will see
the final death throes of religions—as indicated by the current, and accelerating, diminution of
"people of faith".

Take away the religion, you still have horrible people.

Nope. Take away religion, and you'll have less people doing horrible things purely in the name of
their religion, with potential deprivation of their own deeper and more honest personal ethics or
morals.  Homophobia; female genital mutilation and circumcision; religious civil wars; opposition to
abortion, same-sex marriage and stem-cell research; anti-vaccination and juvenile blood transfusions;
foodstuffs, alcohol consumption and clothing impositions; racism and genocide etc.

[julep]

Yes. Humans are indeed horrible, both intentionally and un-, and they’ve created gods that reflect that.  So what’s your point?

The point is the contradiction in the thoughts of many atheists, who believe that people are basically good, but are held back from that goodness by religion. That could be possible if religion were a thing external to humans, but to an atheist that isn't the case. If religion is horrible, then people are horrible. Take away the religion, you still have horrible people.

I don't believe people are inherently good.  However, over time humans have abandoned a number of human-devised systems and in doing so have increased the overall level of goodness in society--for example, granting rights to more categories of people.  Outlawing slavery, for example. Treating women as something other than property.  Setting up pension systems so that poor people don't die in workhouses.     

Religion gives its followers an in-group with survival advantages and a set of rationales and excuses for horrible behavior towards outsiders and people lower in the hierarchy.  At this point, the negatives of this system far outweigh the positives.  Eliminating religion would increase the overall good in society, although it would not change human nature, which is to be an asshole if that's seen as advantageous.

[Percie]

I don't believe people are inherently good.  However, over time humans have abandoned a number of human-devised systems and in doing so have increased the overall level of goodness in society--for example, granting rights to more categories of people.  Outlawing slavery, for example.

There are more slaves now than at any time in history. As you note, people aren't inherently good. 

Treating women as something other than property.

A good portion of today's slaves are women who are treated as property.

Setting up pension systems so that poor people don't die in workhouses.     

And another chunk is people in forced labor.

Religion gives its followers an in-group with survival advantages and a set of rationales and excuses for horrible behavior towards outsiders and people lower in the hierarchy.

And for generous behavior toward outsiders. My daughter for example does volunteer work with women who escaped from sex slavery.

At this point, the negatives of this system far outweigh the positives.  Eliminating religion would increase the overall good in society,

That's just confirmation bias. There's no way you can quantify it.

[GenesisNemesis]

Yes. Humans are indeed horrible, both intentionally and un-, and they’ve created gods that reflect that.  So what’s your point?

The point is the contradiction in the thoughts of many atheists, who believe that people are basically good...

Do give examples of this, because I haven't noticed it in all my years (nearly two decades) of online interactions with atheists,  and I've noticed far more that atheists tend to acknowledge humans are a product of both genetics and their environment. That's not nearly the same as saying "humans are inherently good". Seems much more likely to me that you're misrepresenting atheists' views, as religionists tend to do.