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Flipping
#1

Flipping
When's the last time you made a major flip in a significant belief?  Did it occur painfully over time, fought the whole way, or was it instantaneous with reading a paragraph in a book, or seeing a news segment?

Going vegan, for example.  Or its opposite.

Recognizing that sexual identity is far more complicated than mere anatomy alone.

Going atheist.  Or its opposite.

That Art Deco architecture is suddenly fascinating.  Or that you've lost a taste for it.

Etc.

I used to be firm believer in the Boeing design principle of their autopilots (total pilot command allowing excursion outside the performance envelope); now I believe Airbus has the best approach (pilot can never push the airplane outside its performance envelope).  A paragraph in a book changed my mind on that one - for me that was a biggie.

I used to be firm believer that ALL restored antique airplanes be not just flyable but flown; now I believe genuine surviving antique aircraft be firmly locked onto the ground in museums and if you want to fly an antique build a replica.  That was another biggie; seeing crashes year after year proved to me that man is incapable of operating complicated dangerous machinery safely consistently and the real antiques if operated will ultimately vanish.

I used to be almost a fanatic believer that most taxation was wasted money and an insuperable burden, that government at all levels was an intrusion more than an aid; now I understand the role of governance more profoundly (from considering it thoughtfully rather than just railing witlessly against it) and regard taxation as just another cost equivalent to paying for electricity and meatloaf.  (I disapprove of much of its mechanics, but not taxation itself).

As a teenager accepting the time dilation effects of relativity required chewing on it.

Accepting the realities of my encroaching mortality is something I'm still chewing on.


I can't take the position that my new beliefs are the final truth; I changed my mind before, nothing prevents new information from clicking some firmly held conviction into another notch, perhaps an opposing one.

But doing so, for me, doesn't make me uncomfortable.  I may dislike where evidence takes me, but I follow it because inventing deceits to avoid following it DOES make me uncomfortable.

My impression is that for many, THE belief matters more than the faculty to adjust belief.  If you can recount times when you've flipped, even unwillingly, then I'd say your sense of self is not bound to belief itself.  But if the last time you changed your mind on some matter was 32 years ago when you switched to Kellogs Corn Flakes from Rice Crispies, it might be time to take your beliefs out of the vault and dust them off and see if delusion has stealthily and quietly replaced what you used to think was golden.
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#2

Flipping
The last major flip in belief that I had was abandoning libertarianism and so-called rugged individualism in the late 90s. There's certainly been drift since then as well, but that was the last sea-change. I don't feel fossilized for it. My beliefs are, I think, evidence-based, but because of that I remain open to evidence ... or so I try.

*****

Like your old outlook, I like the idea of antiques being used as designed. Being a guitarist I want a 1959 Les Paul to be played onstage, not displayed in a glass case. But the older I get, the more the value of preservation makes sense to me regarding irreplaceable objects like old guitars or a 1943 B-17.
Freedom isn't free.
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#3

Flipping
as a fellow pilot I do not share your new position. There are plenty of antique and unique aircraft in museums and I don't worship old things as they are just things. If they are airworthy and the owner wishes to fly them, so be it.
As far as myself i have not had one of those flips of position, but there is time. Smile
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#4

Flipping
Four or five years ago the psychotic delusions that had been my world since a child went away. Until then, I thought I was a refugee from another universe, hunted by evil men from my home universe, and that the only way to escape them and return home was to kill myself. A year or two later the depression which had also been a constant companion lifted. There was no moment where it happened, but it changed 180 degrees when I wasn't looking.
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#5

Flipping
Interesting flips regarding nostalgia. I could go on about that, but that might be its own thread (I'm fascinated by steampunk, but am nostalgic mostly for the 80's. Airplanes that were popular back then would have included the Boeing 727, DC-10, L-1011 and others).

I used to hate the idea of affirmative action. I felt like "each man for himself". But now, I'm pretty supportive of policies that target minorities (if I weren't, I'd be railing against the ADA. It's imperfect, but I think it will set a precednt for future such laws). I'm interestied in entertaining more, and different, paradigms to better our nation.
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”
-Carl Sagan

"The best counter to extremist speech is not censorship. The best counter is more speech." -Thumpalumpacus
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#6

Flipping
As a coin collector, I used to loathe the so-called "tombstones" -- slabbed coins. I thought it robbed the collector of the joy of close examination, put a wall between the collector and the collected. It was where a coin went to die, where it stopped being a coin and started being a display piece.

And then I fell into a deal for a stack of slabbed Ikes that I would've been a damned fool to pass on, slabbed or raw.

I was wrong. They can be handled with considerably less care, examined just as closely, and I am certain of their grade. For the most part, I will still collect raw, but all my Ikes will be slabbed, and I won't turn my nose up at a coin because it's encased in a plastic shell. It's safe from most accidents now.

As far as antiques being put to use, I'm all for it (other than using silver coins and wheatbacks as actual money!). I keep a couple 70-80 year old fountain pens in rotation, use some of my uranium glass pieces from time to time, work at the 80+ year old secretary that had been my grandparents, read vintage books, play with vintage toys. Only when it becomes a question of safety or fragility do I think it's time to put vintage things on display rather than to use.
"Aliens?  Us?  Is this one of your Earth jokes?"  -- Kro-Bar, The Lost Skeleton of Cadavra
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#7

Flipping
(05-31-2021, 04:09 AM)airportkid Wrote: When's the last time you made a major flip in a significant belief?  Did it occur painfully over time, fought the whole way, or was it instantaneous with reading a paragraph in a book, or seeing a news segment?

Going vegan, for example.  Or its opposite.

Recognizing that sexual identity is far more complicated than mere anatomy alone.

Going atheist.  Or its opposite.

That Art Deco architecture is suddenly fascinating.  Or that you've lost a taste for it.

Etc.

I used to be firm believer in the Boeing design principle of their autopilots (total pilot command allowing excursion outside the performance envelope); now I believe Airbus has the best approach (pilot can never push the airplane outside its performance envelope).  A paragraph in a book changed my mind on that one - for me that was a biggie.

I used to be firm believer that ALL restored antique airplanes be not just flyable but flown; now I believe genuine surviving antique aircraft be firmly locked onto the ground in museums and if you want to fly an antique build a replica.  That was another biggie; seeing crashes year after year proved to me that man is incapable of operating complicated dangerous machinery safely consistently and the real antiques if operated will ultimately vanish.

I used to be almost a fanatic believer that most taxation was wasted money and an insuperable burden, that government at all levels was an intrusion more than an aid; now I understand the role of governance more profoundly (from considering it thoughtfully rather than just railing witlessly against it) and regard taxation as just another cost equivalent to paying for electricity and meatloaf.  (I disapprove of much of its mechanics, but not taxation itself).

As a teenager accepting the time dilation effects of relativity required chewing on it.

Accepting the realities of my encroaching mortality is something I'm still chewing on.


I can't take the position that my new beliefs are the final truth; I changed my mind before, nothing prevents new information from clicking some firmly held conviction into another notch, perhaps an opposing one.

But doing so, for me, doesn't make me uncomfortable.  I may dislike where evidence takes me, but I follow it because inventing deceits to avoid following it DOES make me uncomfortable.

My impression is that for many, THE belief matters more than the faculty to adjust belief.  If you can recount times when you've flipped, even unwillingly, then I'd say your sense of self is not bound to belief itself.  But if the last time you changed your mind on some matter was 32 years ago when you switched to Kellogs Corn Flakes from Rice Crispies, it might be time to take your beliefs out of the vault and dust them off and see if delusion has stealthily and quietly replaced what you used to think was golden.

In Grade 3 I was removed from class and sent to the Principals' office in a Catholic School for saying that Superman was better than Jesus. A Catholic Bible had plenty of pictures just like a comic book, so I made that comparison. I could never understand how anyone ever thought what's in the bible was real. 

I have never believed. Never will. It's stupid.
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#8

Flipping
I have changed my point of view countless times.

The times they are a'changing, and so am I.

Would be sad if we remained stagnant while the world around us keeps changing. Not a good recipe for improvement of life.

The biggest changes in outlook probably came with the death of hubby and my subsequent retirement. My entire focus changed. I went from being pretty much a workaholic (lots of output) to sitting back and just observing and taking in. It's been a good change, but I would not miss any of the phases of my life, they are all building blocks in what I have become. Even if they were stupid, that fact helped me to become smarter. 

"Flipping" is an important part of life, it's learning. Life would be boring and stagnant without it.
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#9

Flipping
(05-31-2021, 02:27 PM)Free Wrote:
(05-31-2021, 04:09 AM)airportkid Wrote: When's the last time you made a major flip in a significant belief?  Did it occur painfully over time, fought the whole way, or was it instantaneous with reading a paragraph in a book, or seeing a news segment?

Going vegan, for example.  Or its opposite.

Recognizing that sexual identity is far more complicated than mere anatomy alone.

Going atheist.  Or its opposite.

That Art Deco architecture is suddenly fascinating.  Or that you've lost a taste for it.

Etc.

I used to be firm believer in the Boeing design principle of their autopilots (total pilot command allowing excursion outside the performance envelope); now I believe Airbus has the best approach (pilot can never push the airplane outside its performance envelope).  A paragraph in a book changed my mind on that one - for me that was a biggie.

I used to be firm believer that ALL restored antique airplanes be not just flyable but flown; now I believe genuine surviving antique aircraft be firmly locked onto the ground in museums and if you want to fly an antique build a replica.  That was another biggie; seeing crashes year after year proved to me that man is incapable of operating complicated dangerous machinery safely consistently and the real antiques if operated will ultimately vanish.

I used to be almost a fanatic believer that most taxation was wasted money and an insuperable burden, that government at all levels was an intrusion more than an aid; now I understand the role of governance more profoundly (from considering it thoughtfully rather than just railing witlessly against it) and regard taxation as just another cost equivalent to paying for electricity and meatloaf.  (I disapprove of much of its mechanics, but not taxation itself).

As a teenager accepting the time dilation effects of relativity required chewing on it.

Accepting the realities of my encroaching mortality is something I'm still chewing on.


I can't take the position that my new beliefs are the final truth; I changed my mind before, nothing prevents new information from clicking some firmly held conviction into another notch, perhaps an opposing one.

But doing so, for me, doesn't make me uncomfortable.  I may dislike where evidence takes me, but I follow it because inventing deceits to avoid following it DOES make me uncomfortable.

My impression is that for many, THE belief matters more than the faculty to adjust belief.  If you can recount times when you've flipped, even unwillingly, then I'd say your sense of self is not bound to belief itself.  But if the last time you changed your mind on some matter was 32 years ago when you switched to Kellogs Corn Flakes from Rice Crispies, it might be time to take your beliefs out of the vault and dust them off and see if delusion has stealthily and quietly replaced what you used to think was golden.

In Grade 3 I was removed from class and sent to the Principals' office in a Catholic School for saying that Superman was better than Jesus. A Catholic Bible had plenty of pictures just like a comic book, so I made that comparison. I could never understand how anyone ever thought what's in the bible was real. 

I have never believed. Never will. It's stupid.

Dang.
For about 1 nano second, I thought the flip would be from being a mythicist.
Dodgy
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#10

Flipping
I've never really flipped anything in my life much.  What I've done is expand my interests.  I didn't used to be very interested in science since I was always into the arts but I've absorbed the sciences in my life more and more.   I've also expanded my knowledge of history.  There's just not enough time in ones life to know everything so I'm trying to shove everything in my brain as much as I can.  

I never believed in a god. I never had a god concept so that was not a subject I had to flip or modify.
                                                         T4618
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#11

Flipping
I used to think scotch was nasty, and didn't drink any hard liquor outside of tequila. My how times change.
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#12

Flipping
Great question.

I suppose it was when I changed my position on gays.  Probably about 20 years ago.  Not so much an acceptance of their lifestyle but rather the realization that how they choose to live is none of my business.  Not to mention that they were largely political allies against the christo-fascists of the time ( Ralph Reed, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson.)
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#13

Flipping
Can't remember the last time I flipped on something, aside from belief in god/New-Ageism. I guess that truly means atheism is a religion after all. Deadpan Coffee Drinker

I suppose I flip on the second amendment issue sometimes. I can understand why having guns could be important (particularly when fascism is becoming such a huge problem in this country. I would like to not be defenseless against fascists, thanks), but also I understand the arguments for regulation.
Sometimes you just have no words all you can do is laugh at the stupidity. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#14

Flipping
Realizing with certainty there is no God was by far the most profound and memorable paradigm shift. Otherwise, meh. Most everything else I wouldn't say "beliefs" have flipped. I'm generally very suspicious and cynical so I hold most of my political and social views at arm's length as being "At the moment this is what I think is most likely true, based on what I believe to be true about humans and human behavior." Like all of us here, I don't expect humans and human behavior to turn out to be something wildly different that what we believe it is.
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#15

Flipping
How could I have forgotten? I was a Hindu until a few years ago. I was pretty secular, and knew very little about my faith other than that the figure of Kali the dark goddess spoke to me. But I wanted to learn more, to take my worship and understanding deeper. But when I made that decision, I realized that I didn't have a guide as to what to take and what to leave in the vast cornucopia of legends and stories that informs Hindu belief in general, and my Shaktism in particular. I had been a very intuitive person up until that point, although I was also very logical. I realized that if I wanted to be rooted in something real and true, wandering aimlessly among a sea of conflicting beliefs about gods and the goddess could only be reasonably accomplished by following reason. And when I made that commitment, my former beliefs, rooted in vague feelings and uncertain intuitions, just seemed like a bad guide for what to believe. I don't know that I stopped believing in Kali so much as I stopped believing in the sense of my beliefs in Kali. I'm still something of a non-practicing Taoist as well. Someone once asked me, "Are you a Taoist, or a Hindu?" To which I answered, "Yesss!"
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#16

Flipping
I have reinvented myself a number of times -- too many for my taste -- as I have transitioned from Christian to atheist, from political conservative (in the original sense of the word, certainly not the modern one) to a political liberal; incorporating the concept and reality of the various things I've become that I never wanted to (e.g., divorced, widowed). Professionally I started out on 8 bit microcomputers so you can imagine how many times I've relearned software development from the ground up. C# is a far cry from Z-80 assembler, and that's just the language aspect.

I doubt anyone can function without pesky ol' reality coming along and ruining a perfectly good fantasy. We've all had our cheese moved. Some of us are just more willing to admit it than others, or find it easier to forget all the absurd (and often cringe-worthy) assumptions and beliefs we held decades ago.
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#17

Flipping
(05-31-2021, 03:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Great question.

I suppose it was when I changed my position on gays.  Probably about 20 years ago.  Not so much an acceptance of their lifestyle but rather the realization that how they choose to live is none of my business.  Not to mention that they were largely political allies against the christo-fascists of the time ( Ralph Reed, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson.)

A bit of a quibble, Min.
Maybe you didn't mean it as it came out. Human sexual orientation is not a "choice'.
Many things about one's lifestyle is a choice, (including how gay people "live"), but not orientation on the binary scale.

Me, I flipped on the gay thing also. Being gay, I always assocciated with the "masculine" (some would call it "hyper-masculine", as a adaption), my firends were mostly athletes.
Now I don't give a shit whether you're a drag queen or a pro wrestler .. I have friends in all "walks".  As long as you laugh at my jokes, ... that's all I care. Tongue

I also flipped on "rejecting" the Christian culture I was raised in.
It was very liberal, non-funamentalist. I never perceived it as a "threat". My aunt was a nun ... a hilarious lady, and college president. She and her associates fed the poor, taught immigrants to read, and promoted programs to find/prepare them for good jobs. I see that one can "grow out" of that religious stuff, so I give people room to repositon themsleves in that tradition.
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#18

Flipping
Describing anything as a flip feels too abrupt for my experience. Instead, I feel like the sum of my beliefs has made a long, slow turn over the last 15 years. I was raised as a southern conservative Christian in basically every sense that entails. Since moving out of Alabama, my views on everything slowly changed. It really started with tech issues. I realized the Republican party stance on things like net neutrality made no sense. I slowly shifted to a more libertarian mindset. A variety of sources changed my mind on issues such as abortion, lgbtq rights, & welfare policies. All of these changes combined with a fresh attempt to read The Bible as an adult lead me to stop believing in Christianity, deities, & supernatural things in general. Since then, I've been focused on trying to improve my understanding of the world around me, largely to make up for what I missed growing up. My beliefs today are in many ways the opposite of what they were back when I was in college, but that change was gradual. I hope I don't have the same need to change my beliefs now that I did then, but I also hope that I continue to change my beliefs to better fit reality where I need to.
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#19

Flipping
Well, I'm pretty much the same person at 71 as I was at 11. Atheist, cat-oriented, fact-based, happily loner, reader, gardener, home-body.

A flip would be unusual. I pretty much think of things before I adopt them, so there really aren't good reasons to change. I mean, like I don't buy cars because they "look cool". I decide on my needs, check Consumer Reports, test drive the top couple, and then negotiate for the best price. And about once every 15 years.

I would change an opinion for a reason. I was Republican until age 20. Because the State Republicans were Progressive. But when the party left ME, I left it. Maybe that's a flip. But I didn't move; they did, so maybe not.

If God Itself appeared to me in my living room, I would want evidence it wasn't a trick. Like, "OK make the walls green and return Skeeter and Iza to young life, and put flaming letters in the sky saying I AM HERE". Simple stuff for a deity...

But that never seems to happen.
Atheist born and when I die, still an atheist...
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#20

Flipping
I didn't take the topic as meaning one suddenly turned completely in another direction, I assumed it was more about learning and adjusting to an everchanging world and my ever changing involvement in it. Like traveling in different cultures and getting to know people there always influenced my outlook. Working in different professions/fields of knowledge did the same. The emergence of all this technology changed me. None of these things are "flips" where I wake up one morning and think the opposite of the day before. I just see it as growing with the times and learning from exposure.
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#21

Flipping
I thought this was going to be a house flipping thread.

Anywho, the last time I made a major change was recently. A change in diet due to gout.

Other than that, nothing since my transition away from toxic theism in my younger days some twenty odd years ago.
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#22

Flipping
I was a very superstitious person around five or six years ago. I have the option of going over that but it would take too long for me to find the right words to explain.
I met a lot of people who helped me be who I am today and if it wasn't for those people I probably wouldn't have any idea, and that’s frightening.
I had one of those friends who took tons of time out of her day daily, to get on a microphone with me. At this time she had never met me never spoke to me and knew nothing about me. Just to explain to me my perception of the world and why it was flawed and wrong to help me with my problems. She did it in a way that was empathetic and kind and back then that's exactly what I needed because nobody has ever done that for me before. It helped she knew a bit of psychology. (not a pro) But that didn’t matter. Her taking the opportunity to teach me was the ice breaker for me figuring out how to critically think for myself However I would be lying to you if I said that I did not go through absolute hell getting to where I am today.
I had to recognize so many things that I never wanted to recognize because of fear, doubt, self-hatred among others. And I started to see the bigger picture and when your reality shifts like that it can be terrifying.
it changed who I am as a person but not for the worst. there are things I'm still working through and regrets that I still have but I'll get there someday.
We did speak about religion I think the first couple times we met significantly helped because it sort of started shifting my concept of the Paranormal and superstitions. it made me aware that most of my problems were just misconceptions or things I've created for comfort and missing parts. Seeing how I see everything now kind of feels like seeing a sunset for the first time. There are days where I wonder "Why me" why not my best friend? Why not someone who needed it more. But it was me and i have to accept that, and hopefully, I can improve someone else life one day as she did mine.
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#23

Flipping
I used to want in, but flipping out is so much better.
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#24

Flipping
(Yesterday, 03:17 PM)TristanJ Wrote: I was a very superstitious person around five or six years ago.  I have the option of going over that but it would take too long for me to find the right words to explain.
Superstitions are fiendish to get rid of.  Probably because they give us a false sense of control over a situation, and that's a feeling most people like, or at least find comforting.  I think I've purged most of them, but it's still instinctive to say "Gesundheit" (never "bless you", at least there's that) after someone sneezes or to bid someone 'good luck' when that wish makes no difference whatsoever.
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#25

Flipping
(Yesterday, 05:27 PM)trdsf Wrote:
(Yesterday, 03:17 PM)TristanJ Wrote: I was a very superstitious person around five or six years ago.  I have the option of going over that but it would take too long for me to find the right words to explain.
Superstitions are fiendish to get rid of.  Probably because they give us a false sense of control over a situation, and that's a feeling most people like, or at least find comforting.  I think I've purged most of them, but it's still instinctive to say "Gesundheit" (never "bless you", at least there's that) after someone sneezes or to bid someone 'good luck' when that wish makes no difference whatsoever.

Yes, i think that was also apart of it a false sense of control for me though because of the abuse and other things in my life i also think it was comfort, but i always had doubts even when i wanted to ignore the doubts. and because i was naturally curious it's likely what saved me from being ignorant later in life and sadly not everyone grows up keeping curiosity or doubt. i think it can be remade in a way but i feel it'd be harder.
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