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Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
#51

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-23-2021, 10:05 PM)Dom Wrote:
(05-23-2021, 09:17 PM)julep Wrote:
(05-23-2021, 09:07 PM)Dom Wrote: I frequently wish I could talk to my mom, dad, two husbands and two closest friends. Thing is, they do live on in your brain, and you can easily imagine their reaction to current events when you think about it. So, in a way, I do talk to them. They certainly still influence my life, just by occupying prominent places in my brain. They pop into my conscious when events occur that they would be able to help with, or help bring more clarity.

I think, to feel like this, you have to be old and have lost those you loved dearly and with whom you spent a lot of time, living together and sharing everything. In any case, it actually becomes irrelevant after you die. It only matters while you are alive. So, there is that. After you are dead, it's pointless.

I don't know that I agree.  I'm old enough to have long-lasting emotionally resonant relationships with deceased people.  I love my husband and son, very much.  Way more than I dislike my parents and the religious people whom I grew up with.  Yet I still don't have any big desire to commune with any of them in an afterlife.  I feel that imagined conversations with them are their own thing, and wouldn't want those conversations to be any more than a literary device.. This  doesn't mean I wouldn't miss these people, but ugh, not heaven.  

Maybe it's a neurotypical thing that I'm missing, being on the spectrum.   However, I'd reiterate that I'm a human with social relationships who values those relationships.  Just has no emotional connection to the idea of afterlife or heaven.

Wait until your husband and/or son die. That is all.  

And no, it actually has nothing to do with afterlife, really, because by then it's irrelevant. But, that's what people who believe in the afterlife fantasize about. I have heard that more often than I can shake a stick at.
It feels incredibly disrespectful to my experiences for you to respond in this way.  

Do you think i haven’t had extremely important people in my life, people who I miss, die?  I have, as I noted above.  

I would not denigrate your experiences or perceptions, but you are doing that to me.  It feels like the same thing that religious people do, in fact, not acknowledging that people can have divergent perceptions as well as reactions to loss.
god, ugh
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#52

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-23-2021, 10:19 PM)julep Wrote:
(05-23-2021, 10:05 PM)Dom Wrote:
(05-23-2021, 09:17 PM)julep Wrote: I don't know that I agree.  I'm old enough to have long-lasting emotionally resonant relationships with deceased people.  I love my husband and son, very much.  Way more than I dislike my parents and the religious people whom I grew up with.  Yet I still don't have any big desire to commune with any of them in an afterlife.  I feel that imagined conversations with them are their own thing, and wouldn't want those conversations to be any more than a literary device.. This  doesn't mean I wouldn't miss these people, but ugh, not heaven.  

Maybe it's a neurotypical thing that I'm missing, being on the spectrum.   However, I'd reiterate that I'm a human with social relationships who values those relationships.  Just has no emotional connection to the idea of afterlife or heaven.

Wait until your husband and/or son die. That is all.  

And no, it actually has nothing to do with afterlife, really, because by then it's irrelevant. But, that's what people who believe in the afterlife fantasize about. I have heard that more often than I can shake a stick at.
It feels incredibly disrespectful to my experiences for you to respond in this way.  

Do you think i haven’t had extremely important people in my life, people who I miss, die?  I have, as I noted above.  

I would not denigrate your experiences or perceptions, but you are doing that to me.  It feels like the same thing that religious people do, in fact, not acknowledging that people can have divergent perceptions as well as reactions to loss.

I had and have no intention of doing anything to you, I am trying to communicate my experiences. 

With the exception of one friend, everyone I ever cared about is dead.

You can't imagine what that feels like until you get there, and in all likelihood, as you get old and decrepit, that will happen. I never in my life imagined that this would happen to me, and even less how I would react and feel. It's one of the things you can't empathize with until you've been there. I couldn't either. I could look at an old person and feel sorry that they lost everyone over time, but I was not able to empathize, even though I thought I did.

Anyway, this really has zero to do with believing in an afterlife, so back to the actual topic.
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#53

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-22-2021, 02:03 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Do you ever have doubts?

No.

Quote:What is the single best argument you ever heard for the non-existence of supernatural entities and what was your reasoning for denying it?

I've never really heard a positive argument. The only real argument is lack of evidence, which doesn't bother me as each person has their own standards of evidence. No on can prove that theirs is the only right way.

Quote:What do you believe will be the post-life fate of atheists such as you encounter here?  Are we fucked?

Yes.

Quote:What do you imagine Hell to be like (regardless of whether you think we are headed there or not)?

I don't know. I know it won't be like it often is in popular culture, with Satan and demons ruling. I think the Bible shows that it's not the same for everyone - there are different levels of punishment, based for one thing on the amount of light that was given to, and rejected by, a person.
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#54

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
The "lack of evidence / thats not evidence" canard is just a version of the argument from divine hiddenness.

And its typically just the atheist expecting God to perform on-demand. (In violation of Deuteronomy 6:16)
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#55

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 11:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: The "lack of evidence / thats not evidence" canard is just a version of the argument from divine hiddenness.

And its typically just the atheist expecting God to perform on-demand. (In violation of Deuteronomy 6:16)

LOL I've never heard that term before.
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#56

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-23-2021, 01:35 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: And I simply can't muster the faith needed to believe there's no Higher Being(s) and unfortunately atheists err...I mean Non-Stamp Collectors don't seem very motivated to persuade me. 

Oh, look, here's another dolt who doesn't understand what it means to lack faith.
Freedom isn't free.
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#57

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 01:23 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-23-2021, 01:35 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: And I simply can't muster the faith needed to believe there's no Higher Being(s) and unfortunately atheists err...I mean Non-Stamp Collectors don't seem very motivated to persuade me. 

Oh, look, here's another dolt who doesn't understand what it means to lack faith.

If Lion doesn't "believe in atheism" (since he claims atheism is a belief), why the fuck is he here then? Same logic applies to him.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#58

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 11:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: The "lack of evidence / thats not evidence" canard is just a version of the argument from divine hiddenness.

And its typically just the atheist expecting God to perform on-demand. (In violation of Deuteronomy 6:16)

Um.....who gives a fuck what Deuteronomy says.  The problem right off the bat is that you're using a book of claims as evidence.  The bible is not a book of evidence, it is a book of cliams.  It only claims a god exists, it is not evidence. You cannot use a book of claims for anything except more claims. 

And then you have this other problem.  The "cafeteria Christian syndrome".  You pick and choose what you what your god to be so it fits your worldview. 

You go with the bible's claim that the face of god can be seen in Genesis,  but dismiss the anonymous writer of "John" who claims one cannot  see the face of god.  

Why do atheists laugh at you bible believers?   Thus far no theists has ever come up with the evidence that a god eixists  but here you are holding up a book of claims that has a mythical god who condones slavery and incest.   If it weren't so pathetic I'd laugh louder.
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#59

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 11:44 AM)Percie Wrote:
(05-22-2021, 02:03 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Do you ever have doubts?

No.

Quote:What is the single best argument you ever heard for the non-existence of supernatural entities and what was your reasoning for denying it?

I've never really heard a positive argument. The only real argument is lack of evidence, which doesn't bother me as each person has their own standards of evidence. No on can prove that theirs is the only right way.

Quote:What do you believe will be the post-life fate of atheists such as you encounter here?  Are we fucked?

Yes.

Quote:What do you imagine Hell to be like (regardless of whether you think we are headed there or not)?

I don't know. I know it won't be like it often is in popular culture, with Satan and demons ruling. I think the Bible shows that it's not the same for everyone - there are different levels of punishment, based for one thing on the amount of light that was given to, and rejected by, a person.


 
(05-24-2021, 11:44 AM)Percie Wrote: The only real argument is lack of evidence, which doesn't bother me as each person has their own standards of evidence.

Actually there is a standard of evidence.  Empirical evidence a standard. Falsifiable evidence is also a standard.  There is a mountain of evidence for evolution but in the thousands of years that millions of theists have believed in gods not one theist has ever provided one scintilla of evidence for a god. You're old Bronze age book is not evidence.   The only thing theists rely on is faith and faith isn't evidence for diddly squat since it was faith that was used to believe in Greek and Egyptian gods and the thousands of other gods people believe in. 

Faith doesn't tell you if what you believe is true or not since faith can lead you to believe equally in Zeus just as easily it can lead you to believe in Jesus.  And if you don't care if what you believe is true then you're a blind follower.  The thing with atheists is that they CARE of something is true or not. They CARE if a god hypothesis has strong evidence to back it up.    Your god hypothesis has no evidence.  None.  We dismiss it along with pixie dust and vodoo.
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#60

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 04:00 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Actually there is a standard of evidence.  Empirical evidence a standard. Falsifiable evidence is also a standard.  There is a mountain of evidence for evolution but in the thousands of years that millions of theists have believed in gods not one theist has ever provided one scintilla of evidence for a god. You're old Bronze age book is not evidence.   The only thing theists rely on is faith and faith isn't evidence for diddly squat since it was faith that was used to believe in Greek and Egyptian gods and the thousands of other gods people believe in. 

Faith doesn't tell you if what you believe is true or not since faith can lead you to believe equally in Zeus just as easily it can lead you to believe in Jesus.  And if you don't care if what you believe is true then you're a blind follower.  The thing with atheists is that they CARE of something is true or not. They CARE if a god hypothesis has strong evidence to back it up.    Your god hypothesis has no evidence.  None.  We dismiss it along with pixie dust and vodoo.

Ironically, if there is no god, then truth isn't important - only happiness is. Surveys show that the religious report greater happiness. The difference is usually small in richer countries, larger in poorer countries.
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#61

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 04:52 PM)Percie Wrote: Ironically, if there is no god, then truth isn't important - only happiness is. Surveys show that the religious report greater happiness. The difference is usually small in richer countries, larger in poorer countries.

The 10 happiest countries in the world are among the least religious.

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/1...127465.htm

Doesn't jive with your worldview though so you'll reject it.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#62

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 05:13 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The 10 happiest countries in the world are among the least religious.

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/1...127465.htm

Doesn't jive with your worldview though so you'll reject it.

No, I'll reject it because it's an unnecessary correlation and direct studies have been done:

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/20...-question/
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#63

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 05:28 PM)Percie Wrote:
(05-24-2021, 05:13 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: The 10 happiest countries in the world are among the least religious.

https://www.christiantoday.com/article/1...127465.htm

Doesn't jive with your worldview though so you'll reject it.

No, I'll reject it because it's an unnecessary correlation 

In other words, because it doesn't fit with your worldview.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#64

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 04:52 PM)Percie Wrote:
(05-24-2021, 04:00 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Actually there is a standard of evidence.  Empirical evidence a standard. Falsifiable evidence is also a standard.  There is a mountain of evidence for evolution but in the thousands of years that millions of theists have believed in gods not one theist has ever provided one scintilla of evidence for a god. You're old Bronze age book is not evidence.   The only thing theists rely on is faith and faith isn't evidence for diddly squat since it was faith that was used to believe in Greek and Egyptian gods and the thousands of other gods people believe in. 

Faith doesn't tell you if what you believe is true or not since faith can lead you to believe equally in Zeus just as easily it can lead you to believe in Jesus.  And if you don't care if what you believe is true then you're a blind follower.  The thing with atheists is that they CARE of something is true or not. They CARE if a god hypothesis has strong evidence to back it up.    Your god hypothesis has no evidence.  None.  We dismiss it along with pixie dust and vodoo.

Ironically, if there is no god, then truth isn't important - only happiness is. Surveys show that the religious report greater happiness. The difference is usually small in richer countries, larger in poorer countries.

That a given theist is happier than a given atheist is no more proof of your gawd than a given drunk being happier than a given sober person is proof that booze is healthy. [Image: Eye_Roll.gif]
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#65

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 05:33 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote:
(05-24-2021, 04:52 PM)Percie Wrote:
(05-24-2021, 04:00 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Actually there is a standard of evidence.  Empirical evidence a standard. Falsifiable evidence is also a standard.  There is a mountain of evidence for evolution but in the thousands of years that millions of theists have believed in gods not one theist has ever provided one scintilla of evidence for a god. You're old Bronze age book is not evidence.   The only thing theists rely on is faith and faith isn't evidence for diddly squat since it was faith that was used to believe in Greek and Egyptian gods and the thousands of other gods people believe in. 

Faith doesn't tell you if what you believe is true or not since faith can lead you to believe equally in Zeus just as easily it can lead you to believe in Jesus.  And if you don't care if what you believe is true then you're a blind follower.  The thing with atheists is that they CARE of something is true or not. They CARE if a god hypothesis has strong evidence to back it up.    Your god hypothesis has no evidence.  None.  We dismiss it along with pixie dust and vodoo.

Ironically, if there is no god, then truth isn't important - only happiness is. Surveys show that the religious report greater happiness. The difference is usually small in richer countries, larger in poorer countries.

That a given theist is happier than a given atheist is no more proof of your gawd than a given drunk being happier than a given sober person is proof that booze is healthy. [Image: Eye_Roll.gif]

The research does not show that religion is the only way to acquire happiness, so it's a non-sequitur too.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#66

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 04:52 PM)Percie Wrote:
(05-24-2021, 04:00 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Actually there is a standard of evidence.  Empirical evidence a standard. Falsifiable evidence is also a standard.  There is a mountain of evidence for evolution but in the thousands of years that millions of theists have believed in gods not one theist has ever provided one scintilla of evidence for a god. You're old Bronze age book is not evidence.   The only thing theists rely on is faith and faith isn't evidence for diddly squat since it was faith that was used to believe in Greek and Egyptian gods and the thousands of other gods people believe in. 

Faith doesn't tell you if what you believe is true or not since faith can lead you to believe equally in Zeus just as easily it can lead you to believe in Jesus.  And if you don't care if what you believe is true then you're a blind follower.  The thing with atheists is that they CARE of something is true or not. They CARE if a god hypothesis has strong evidence to back it up.    Your god hypothesis has no evidence.  None.  We dismiss it along with pixie dust and vodoo.

Ironically, if there is no god, then truth isn't important - only happiness is. Surveys show that the religious report greater happiness. The difference is usually small in richer countries, larger in poorer countries.

LOL.  You have it ass-backwards.   If your storybook god truthfully asked you to kill a baby would you do it?    It's only when a god is invoked does morality and truth fly out the window. The end justifies the means and we just saw this happen under the evangelical Trumpites. Theists justify "truth" in their actions all the time even though it harms others.  And why shouldn't they.  The god they believe in created evil and is a vengeful deity who murders people right and left.     

Yes, here you have a book in which a god kills babies because he's on an ethnic cleansing rampage for his favorite tribe.    (He supposedly created the universe yet somehow can't distinguish which house belongs to his personal favorites without requiring killing hundreds of sheep to paint the houses with.)   If believing in this book and a god who condones slavery gives you happiness,  you have my deepest sympathies.  

Studies show that people in secular countries with the largest atheists population are much happier than theistic countries.  Secular societies rely on logic and reason, not a fairytale book with talking donkeys, snakes and a women who turned into a pile of salt.   They also have much less violence and murder.   Theistic countries around the world have consistantly been the most violent.
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#67

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 05:31 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: In other words, because it doesn't fit with your worldview.

One directly asks people if they're happy and how active they are in religion.

The other measures factors that the authors think should make people happy, then does a correlation to countries by overall religious activity.
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#68

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 05:36 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Studies show that people in secular countries with the largest atheists population are much happier than theistic countries.  Secular societies rely on logic and reason, not a fairytale book with talking donkeys, snakes and a women who turned into a pile of salt.   They also have much less violence and murder.   Theistic countries around the world have consistantly been the most violent.

Do you live in one of those countries? If not, why not? Serious question. You seem pretty miserable. I feel sorry for you.
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#69

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 05:40 PM)Percie Wrote: I feel sorry for you.

No one gives a shit.

"You know religious people are way better than atheists in every possible way." - you being arrogant and holier-than-thou.

"I feel sorry for you." -feigning concern.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#70

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 05:37 PM)Percie Wrote:
(05-24-2021, 05:31 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: In other words, because it doesn't fit with your worldview.

One directly asks people if they're happy and how active they are in religion.

The other measures factors that the authors think should make people happy, then does a correlation to countries by overall religious activity.

You obviously didn't read the article GenesisNemesis linked.
The Article Wrote:The results are pooled from Gallup World Poll surveys from 2015-2017 and are based on six key variables
(my bold)

Then again, I don't expect honest discourse from christers like you. Spin, twist, obfuscate, and deny. It's all you assholes have.
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#71

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 05:40 PM)Percie Wrote: I feel sorry for you.

I'll take virtue signaling for a thousand, Alex.
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#72

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 11:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: The "lack of evidence / thats not evidence" canard is just a version of the argument from divine hiddenness.

And its typically just the atheist expecting God to perform on-demand. (In violation of Deuteronomy 6:16)

We're not asking your gawd to perform, you chuckle-fuck. We're asking for evidence to back up the claims you assholes keep making about what your gawd has, allegedly, already done. That you're too stone fucking stupid to see the difference is not our problem.
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#73

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-23-2021, 07:33 PM)Lion IRC Wrote: ...I feel absolutely zero anxiety when an atheist tells me there's no heaven/God.
I'm not 'triggered'. I don't feel psychologically abused. I don't lose any sleep.

I do  think you feel all those things, even if you can't admit it—even to yourself. Otherwise,
you wouldn't (presumably) be wasting your time here.  You seem to be very personally
concerned about getting the depth of your religiosity and your Christian notions of the
world across to us.  And that has to be no other reason other than to effectively reinforcing
your own faith—or, as it actually is, belief without evidence.

My Christian friends—who are aware of my atheism—never discuss their religiosity with
me. And yet here you are; every day posting comments about yours, and/or badmouthing
atheistic world viewpoints (or even resorting to personal attacks).  Our entire site seems
to have touched a raw nerve with you.

Quote:I just don't understand why the doctrine of hell is seen as a useful or potent argument against God.

From your numerous comments here, it's more than obvious that you don't understand this.
If ether were no gods, then there'd be no need for any manufactured devils or hells.

Quote:Neither do I see alleged bible contradictions...

Of course you don't—you simply choose to ignore them.  We've posted a link couple of times
to THIS site, but of course you choose to disregard it.

Quote:Theodicy and the so-called 'problem' of pain is the one which requires the most careful and diligent defense IMHO.

There would be no defence—if a "god" were to exist in reality [sic ]—but one
which allowed disease and suffering and death to consume its faithful worshipers. It's only
theists who think their gods homicidal actions can be vindicated.

And, for example, why did your putative god sic COVID-19 upon humanity?   For some sort
of schadenfreude?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#74

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 04:52 PM)Percie Wrote: Ironically, if there is no god, then truth isn't important - only happiness is.

How in the holy fuck do you even get here? Talk about a fucking non-sequitur.
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#75

Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum
(05-24-2021, 05:56 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote:
(05-24-2021, 04:52 PM)Percie Wrote: Ironically, if there is no god, then truth isn't important - only happiness is.

How in the holy fuck do you even get here? Talk about a fucking non-sequitur.

It's the typical "atheists don't care about anything!" straw man.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Theists love reverting to that when they can't support their positions with evidence.
Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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