Questions for new (to me) Christians on the forum

[Cavebear]

Not religious either, but just wanted to say that when I was, I found (and still do) the idea of hell beyond abhorrent...


... and the idea of paradise beyond horrific. I vividly remember lying in bed as a teenager, unable to sleep because of the crippling, unimaginable, petrifying terror of the mere thought of eternity and, more precisely, an eternity in which I am alive, with no end ever. Ever. EVER.

There's a religious member who doesn't really post here anymore, who's told me they, too, are terrified of the idea of eternity.

(It's called apeirophobia btw and I couldn't (and cannot) think of anything scarier.)

Few people grasp the concept of "eternity". I wouldn't want the worst person ever to experience "Hell" for even a minute. But I'm not sure I would want even blissful happiness forever either. Boredom HAS to creep into the mind eventually.

It worries me that some people can even conceive of constant torture.

Fortunately, neither exists.

[Cypher44]

Belief in a god is a learned concept.   Because I grew up  in such an isolated area with no TV or radio and non religious parents I had no god concept at all.    

One has to be taught that Zeus is the father of all gods and men in order to believe that Zeus is the father of all gods and men.

Oh, definitely, I would not be a Christian if I was not born into Christian family, I might’ve been Muslim, Hindu or Jew, so yeah, God is a learned concept for sure. But to most Christians, he’s also a belief, which is technically a firmly held opinion, if you really think about it, and most opinions can be changed through exposure to evidence, but I don’t think there’s any amount of evidence that would change the opinion of the most fervent religious

[GenesisNemesis]

The point I was making is that if I were as committed to atheism as some adult atheists here seem to be, I wouldn't feel violated or psychologically abused just because someone I thought was deluded, told me they believed in a (non-existent) place called hell and that a non-existent entity was absolutely positively going to send me to this non-existent realm when I die.

Are you *at all* capable of at least *some* semblance of thought? Oh, but look who I’m asking.

What “committed” atheists – and anyone who is not utterly mentally and morally deficient (which obviously excludes you right from the start) – object to is the idea that so many are perfectly ok with (and often even happy about) the thought that a huge part of their fellow* human beings are going to be tortured for eternity. And are even capable of claiming that the made-up father-figure who's responsible for the torture is “all-loving”.

It is not all those non-existent things themselves that bother us (hell, god, Virgin Mary and her loving son, who watch over you *personally* because you're so damn special and important), it’s what they are of sign of (a truly twisted, sick, tribal, primitive mind) and what effect they and those who wield them like a weapon, have on the *real* world.

And, the word you're looking for isn't "violated". It's utter revulsion at total moral (and, in this case, intellectual) vacuums like you

*And I understand that for someone like you (and quite a few religious people), "fellow" human being only means someone who thinks and believes exactly like I do.

"Why are people bothered by being told they'll be tortured for eternity? I just don't get it! Why can't these sinful, evil, vile and corrupt atheists just let us bully them without resistance?" -Christian morons.

[Cavebear]

Sometimes, the replies from fellow atheists are so good that there is nothing much left to say but "Hurray".

So, "Hurray"!

[Dancefortwo]

The point I was making is that if I were as committed to atheism as some adult atheists here seem to be, I wouldn't feel violated or psychologically abused just because someone I thought was deluded, told me they believed in a (non-existent) place called hell and that a non-existent entity was absolutely positively going to send me to this non-existent realm when I die.

Are you *at all* capable of at least *some* semblance of thought? Oh, but look who I’m asking.

What “committed” atheists – and anyone who is not utterly mentally and morally deficient (which obviously excludes you right from the start) – object to is the idea that so many are perfectly ok with (and often even happy about) the thought that a huge part of their fellow* human beings are going to be tortured for eternity. And are even capable of claiming that the made-up father-figure who's responsible for the torture is “all-loving”.

It is not all those non-existent things themselves that bother us (hell, god, Virgin Mary and her loving son, who watch over you *personally* because you're so damn special and important), it’s what they are of sign of (a truly twisted, sick, tribal, primitive mind) and what effect they and those who wield them like a weapon, have on the *real* world.

And, the word you're looking for isn't "violated". It's utter revulsion at total moral (and, in this case, intellectual) vacuums like you

*And I understand that for someone like you (and quite a few religious people), "fellow" human being only means someone who thinks and believes exactly like I do.

"Why are people bothered by being told they'll be tortured for eternity? I just don't get it! Why can't these sinful, evil, vile and corrupt atheists just let us bully them without resistance?" -Christian morons.

I've written this before but I'll write it again. Christianity isn't based on love and acceptance.  The entire Christian religion is based on threats of hell.  It's a Mafia extortion plot with a side order of the Stockholm Syndrome. 

Believe in this loving god, bow down to his will or you'll end up burning in hell for eternity.    In Mafia talk "Pay tribute to the godfather, he loves you but bow to his will or you'll end up in the East River wearing cement boots swimming with the fishes."

Jesus loves you but if you don't love him back he has a torture chamber in his back room to torture you for all eternity. 

Christianity is sick.

[Dānu]

I'm surprised to hear Christians admitting to hell being a preoccupation. I wonder if there are any studies or surveys touching on this.

[Cavebear]

I'm surprised to hear Christians admitting to hell being a preoccupation.  I wonder if there are any studies or surveys touching on this.

According to FactTank, 85% of Christians believe in heaven and 70% believe in hell.  I have no idea why there is a difference.  Mormons believe in heaven the most, but a lot fewer believe in hell.  That seems odd too.

The oddest thing was that self-identified atheists believed in heaven and hell 5% and 3%.  I don't know how atheists can believe in either but that's what the survey said.  Agnostics were slightly higher than atheists.  How can an agnostic have an opinion on that?

But in every religious and non-religious group, more believed in heaven than hell.  I guess that means we hope for the best more than the beast.  LOL!

[airportkid]

... But in every religious and non-religious group, more believed in heaven than hell.  I guess that means we hope for the best more than the beast ...

I'd bet the vast majority of those who believe in hell do so because they need for there to be someplace that makes getting away with crimes ultimately impossible.  They are not going to wind up there (because their own crimes are (in their own eyes) never fatally offensive, at least to their god), but they take consolation that the irredeemably evil prick that got the last parking spot right in front of them when it was raining will spend eternity in extreme pain to reflect on his atrocities.

I may have described this cartoon here before, one I may have imagined because I've never been able to find it.  It's two panels.  Both are identical except for background.  In each, two people face each other, pointing at the other in horrified surprise.  The background in one panel is clearly hell, the background in the other clearly heaven.  The single caption exclaims "YOU?!?!?!" 

[Cavebear]

... But in every religious and non-religious group, more believed in heaven than hell.  I guess that means we hope for the best more than the beast ...

I'd bet the vast majority of those who believe in hell do so because they need for there to be someplace that makes getting away with crimes ultimately impossible.  They are not going to wind up there (because their own crimes are (in their own eyes) never fatally offensive, at least to their god), but they take consolation that the irredeemably evil prick that got the last parking spot right in front of them when it was raining will spend eternity in extreme pain to reflect on his atrocities.

I may have described this cartoon here before, one I may have imagined because I've never been able to find it.  It's two panels.  Both are identical except for background.  In each, two people face each other, pointing at the other in horrified surprise.  The background in one panel is clearly hell, the background in the other clearly heaven.  The single caption exclaims "YOU?!?!?!" 

Don't let it go to your head, but I pretty much agree with you. "Hell" is always for others.

[SYZ]

...The oddest thing was that self-identified atheists believed in heaven and hell 5% and 3%.  I don't know how atheists can believe in either but that's what the survey said.

Yes, that's very peculiar, although I note that the survey was conducted with
only American respondents—which may skew the data.  According to Gallup,
69% of Americans said that religion was "very important" whereas in Australia
only 32% said religion was "very important".    That may subtly influence the
thinking of a few American atheists?

Although, from my personal point of view, if you believe in heaven and hell as
realistic concepts—or the supernatural—then you can't truly be an atheist as
per the common definition.

[Cavebear]

...The oddest thing was that self-identified atheists believed in heaven and hell 5% and 3%.  I don't know how atheists can believe in either but that's what the survey said.

Yes, that's very peculiar, although I note that the survey was conducted with
only American respondents—which may skew the data.  According to Gallup,
69% of Americans said that religion was "very important" whereas in Australia
only 32% said religion was "very important".    That may subtly influence the
thinking of a few American atheists?

Although, from my personal point of view, if you believe in heaven and hell as
realistic concepts—or the supernatural—then you can't truly be an atheist as
per the common definition.

Total agreement on the last point. But self-identification as an atheist doesn't make you one. I mentioned on some other thread that I have met weird people who think that only going to Church on a couple religious holidays (whatever religion) and only praying "then" means they are atheist. And others who simply don't go to a church but believe in a deity (like my deist Dad) think they are atheists. I've even met some who are convinced that anyone not of their theism is an atheist

Yeah, the US is more religious than some nations, but the survey is still percentages, not actual numbers of them.

[Dancefortwo]

...The oddest thing was that self-identified atheists believed in heaven and hell 5% and 3%.  I don't know how atheists can believe in either but that's what the survey said.

Yes, that's very peculiar, although I note that the survey was conducted with
only American respondents—which may skew the data.  According to Gallup,
69% of Americans said that religion was "very important" whereas in Australia
only 32% said religion was "very important".    That may subtly influence the
thinking of a few American atheists?

Although, from my personal point of view, if you believe in heaven and hell as
realistic concepts—or the supernatural—then you can't truly be an atheist as
per the common definition.

On that same theme this video shows a conservative Evangelical Preacher who traveled to the Nordic countries... Norway, Sweden, Finland and Denmark and tried to infuse his beliefs onto non believers in very non religious, secualar countries.  He's rather shocked by it all.  It's like he's been dropped into the 21st century from the Bronze Age.   It's embarrassing that he's from the same country I live in.   There's a longer version of this video somewhere on youtube but I'm too lazy to find it.     

[Dom]

Heaven becomes more fun to think of as you age and lose your relatives and peers to death. Everyone fantasizes about being able to talk with them again, regardless of religion or no religion.  

And, yes, hell is always for the people who irritate you. You, yourself, of course have such a great relationship with the gods that this could never happen to you.

That way, both heaven and hell become welcome outlets. You can fantasize about the pleasant idea of seeing your lost friends and family, and you can get rid of your enemies.

That's what makes the system attractive.

[Lion IRC]

I think that if you're sure there's no afterlife, then I don't know why the mere mention of the word hell would bother you.

It doesn't.   Hell is a myth.

Yes. ^^^this^^^ is what I would expect to be the logical extension of not believing in hell.
Not caring if someone (you think is deluded,) tells you they believe in hell.

I feel absolutely zero anxiety when an atheist tells me there's no heaven/God.
I'm not 'triggered'. I dont feel psychologically abused. I dont lose any sleep.

I just don't understand why the doctrine of hell is seen as a useful or potent argument against God. Neither do I see alleged bible contradictions or omnipotence paradoxes or Christian hypocrisy as strong counter-apologetic lines of argument.

Theodicy and the so-called 'problem' of pain is the one which requires the most careful and diligent defense IMHO

[airportkid]

... but I'm too lazy to find it ...

From time to time laziness should be rewarded, so here's the long version:

[GenesisNemesis]

I feel absolutely zero anxiety when an atheist tells me there's no heaven/God.

More bullshit. The doctrine of Hell is a direct result of anxiety towards there being no "cosmic justice" in the world. Also you and your friend Percie wouldn't be here if not for your anxiety about atheists.

[Lion IRC]

I feel absolutely zero anxiety when an atheist tells me there's no heaven/God.

More bullshit. The doctrine of Hell is a direct result of anxiety towards there being no "cosmic justice" in the world. Also you and your friend Percie wouldn't be here if not for your anxiety about atheists.

The evidence suggests otherwise.
I've investigated.

Have you ever considered that maybe, just maybe, it's a response to christer fucks like you who insist on (metaphorically) beating us about the head and shoulders with you great big book of bullshit?!?

I did consider that, but it's not the case that you guys are just responding to theists. Atheists here start threads just to argue against the Bible. If you didn't do that, I probably wouldn't come here.

Good point @Percie
Im gonna take a few moments to browse and see whether the AvT topic thread starters here are predominantly closed-minded, preachy, presuppositionalist, proselytizer fundies

...or Christians.

[julep]

Heaven becomes more fun to think of as you age and lose your relatives and peers to death. Everyone fantasizes about being able to talk with them again, regardless of religion or no religion.  

And, yes, hell is always for the people who irritate you. You, yourself, of course have such a great relationship with the gods that this could never happen to you.

That way, both heaven and hell become welcome outlets. You can fantasize about the pleasant idea of seeing your lost friends and family, and you can get rid of your enemies.

That's what makes the system attractive.

I have to say I have never fantasized about being able to talk again with the dead people I knew.  Even the ones I liked.  

I've always thought of heaven as a horrific place precisely because you're stuck with the very most annoying members of your family and church.   I would deliberately commit a thousand nonharmful to humans sins as defined by gawd (blaspheme against the holy spirit, hold other gods before Yahweh, mix my fabrics, etc.) a thousand times to avoid being in heaven for eternity with my father and mother or the fine Christians of my childhood.  

I'm not sure there is any group of people I'd want to spend an actual eternity with.

[Vera]

Few people grasp the concept of "eternity".  I wouldn't want the worst person ever to experience "Hell" for even a minute.  But I'm not sure I would want even blissful happiness forever either.  Boredom HAS to creep into the mind eventually.  

It worries me that some people can even conceive of constant torture.

Fortunately, neither exists.

Pretty much.

Though I don't even think boredom is the issue here. I think a lot of people, when they think of "Heaven", imagine themselves perfectly happy for a long, long, long time. Which, given how fleeting our lives are, is perfectly understandable.

Eternity is something else entirely. Eternity is absolutely no end. Ever. Not ever. Whether it's spent in bliss or torture doesn't change anything. To be honest, I don't think our brains are capable of really grasping infinity/eternity and especially not an "eternity of self". And I think few people even try/dare try/ar capable of trying, hence, an eternity of bliss seems enticing. Because no human brain is actually capable of cmphereneding it, it's so terrifying.




I am reminded of a fantastic phrase by the late and oh-so-dearly-missed Girly: "It seems to me that if I were to live forever, I would end up being diluted to homeopathic levels."

God, why did he have to die so young, of all people


I searched for that quote and also found this by Girly too:

"Anything you do for eternity sounds like hell. Even eternal bliss would become hell by like Tuesday. The temporariness and impermanence of the experience is what gives it meaning. If it's just one more memory in an infinite sea of memories acquired over all of eternity it don't mean much. Hell is eternal anything, it's eternal being, eternal existence. Your heaven is very much my idea of hell."


And this, but the equally missed Johnny, aka houseofcantor

"But if you want an absolute in terms of right and wrong, the mind that desires eternal torment for fellow human beings, that shuns friends and family for the sake of a vaguely defined theology - that mind is wrong."

[Cypher44]

[quote="Dancefortwo" pid='299567' dateline='1621743228']

Yes. ^^^this^^^ is what I would expect to be the logical extension of not believing in hell.
Not caring if someone (you think is deluded,) tells you they believe in hell.

I feel absolutely zero anxiety when an atheist tells me there's no heaven/God.
I'm not 'triggered'. I dont feel psychologically abused. I dont lose any sleep.

I just don't understand why the doctrine of hell is seen as a useful or potent argument against God. Neither do I see alleged bible contradictions or omnipotence paradoxes or Christian hypocrisy as strong counter-apologetic lines of argument.

Theodicy and the so-called 'problem' of pain is the one which requires the most careful and diligent defense IMHO

The doctrine of Hell is an issue, you’ve seen the points they raise right?

Hell is described as a place of eternal punishment, that’s terrifying to think about man, the issue becomes then that worship of God is by extension predicated on the fear of going to Hell, meaning the worship is entirely fear-based, that’s not a good way for a religion to go. 


Secondly, the doctrine of Hell because who goes to Hell? Well, apparently according to Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46, he  will consign to everlasting fire those who failed to aid "the least of his brothers".

Who does that refer to, who are the least of His brothers? I’ve never understood it really, but if we assume this means that anyone who broke the Ten Commandments goes to Hell, then we all go, atheists or not. 

If we’re all going to Hell, anyway because none of us are free of sin, why worship God at all? 

[Dom]

Heaven becomes more fun to think of as you age and lose your relatives and peers to death. Everyone fantasizes about being able to talk with them again, regardless of religion or no religion.  

And, yes, hell is always for the people who irritate you. You, yourself, of course have such a great relationship with the gods that this could never happen to you.

That way, both heaven and hell become welcome outlets. You can fantasize about the pleasant idea of seeing your lost friends and family, and you can get rid of your enemies.

That's what makes the system attractive.

I have to say I have never fantasized about being able to talk again with the dead people I knew.  Even the ones I liked.  

I've always thought of heaven as a horrific place precisely because you're stuck with the very most annoying members of your family and church.   I would deliberately commit a thousand nonharmful to humans sins as defined by gawd (blaspheme against the holy spirit, hold other gods before Yahweh, mix my fabrics, etc.) a thousand times to avoid being in heaven for eternity with my father and mother or the fine Christians of my childhood.  

I'm not sure there is any group of people I'd want to spend an actual eternity with.

I frequently wish I could talk to my mom, dad, two husbands and two closest friends. Thing is, they do live on in your brain, and you can easily imagine their reaction to current events when you think about it. So, in a way, I do talk to them. They certainly still influence my life, just by occupying prominent places in my brain. They pop into my conscious when events occur that they would be able to help with, or help bring more clarity.

I think, to feel like this, you have to be old and have lost those you loved dearly and with whom you spent a lot of time, living together and sharing everything. In any case, it actually becomes irrelevant after you die. It only matters while you are alive. So, there is that. After you are dead, it's pointless.

[julep]

Heaven becomes more fun to think of as you age and lose your relatives and peers to death. Everyone fantasizes about being able to talk with them again, regardless of religion or no religion.  

And, yes, hell is always for the people who irritate you. You, yourself, of course have such a great relationship with the gods that this could never happen to you.

That way, both heaven and hell become welcome outlets. You can fantasize about the pleasant idea of seeing your lost friends and family, and you can get rid of your enemies.

That's what makes the system attractive.

I have to say I have never fantasized about being able to talk again with the dead people I knew.  Even the ones I liked.  

I've always thought of heaven as a horrific place precisely because you're stuck with the very most annoying members of your family and church.   I would deliberately commit a thousand nonharmful to humans sins as defined by gawd (blaspheme against the holy spirit, hold other gods before Yahweh, mix my fabrics, etc.) a thousand times to avoid being in heaven for eternity with my father and mother or the fine Christians of my childhood.  

I'm not sure there is any group of people I'd want to spend an actual eternity with.

I frequently wish I could talk to my mom, dad, two husbands and two closest friends. Thing is, they do live on in your brain, and you can easily imagine their reaction to current events when you think about it. So, in a way, I do talk to them. They certainly still influence my life, just by occupying prominent places in my brain. They pop into my conscious when events occur that they would be able to help with, or help bring more clarity.

I think, to feel like this, you have to be old and have lost those you loved dearly and with whom you spent a lot of time, living together and sharing everything. In any case, it actually becomes irrelevant after you die. It only matters while you are alive. So, there is that. After you are dead, it's pointless.

I don't know that I agree.  I'm old enough to have long-lasting emotionally resonant relationships with deceased people.  I love my husband and son, very much.  Way more than I dislike my parents and the religious people whom I grew up with.  Yet I still don't have any big desire to commune with any of them in an afterlife.  I feel that imagined conversations with them are their own thing, and wouldn't want those conversations to be any more than a literary device.. This  doesn't mean I wouldn't miss these people, but ugh, not heaven.  

Maybe it's a neurotypical thing that I'm missing, being on the spectrum.   However, I'd reiterate that I'm a human with social relationships who values those relationships.  Just has no emotional connection to the idea of afterlife or heaven.

[Dancefortwo]

I think that if you're sure there's no afterlife, then I don't know why the mere mention of the word hell would bother you.

It doesn't.   Hell is a myth.

Yes. ^^^this^^^ is what I would expect to be the logical extension of not believing in hell.
Not caring if someone (you think is deluded,) tells you they believe in hell.

I feel absolutely zero anxiety when an atheist tells me there's no heaven/God.
I'm not 'triggered'. I dont feel psychologically abused. I dont lose any sleep.

I just don't understand why the doctrine of hell is seen as a useful or potent argument against God. Neither do I see alleged bible contradictions or omnipotence paradoxes or Christian hypocrisy as strong counter-apologetic lines of argument.

Theodicy and the so-called 'problem' of pain is the one which requires the most careful and diligent defense IMHO

I just don't understand why the doctrine of hell is seen as a useful or potent argument against God. Neither do I see alleged bible contradictions or omnipotence paradoxes or Christian hypocrisy as strong counter-apologetic lines of argument. 

LOLOL! Wow! 

You apparently don't know much about your religion.  Without the mythical story of Adam and Eve and original sin entering the world there is no need for a Jesus character.  This is why so many Christians reject evolution. It really messes with their Jesus story.   If you know evolution is true (which it is) there is no Adam and Eve story and if the Adam and Eve story didn't happen there there is no reason for Jesus to be sent here to atone for all the bad thing Adam and Eve brought into the world.  In Christianity one is born sick and then commanded to be well through Jesus.  If one rejects Jesus' sacrifice one is punished and rejected by a mythical god.

 Sure, hell is  called "a lake of fire" or a "firey furnace" or  "eternal condemnation by god" or any number of things in the Bible.  The word "hell" came from the Nordic tradition of "hel"  but it doesn't matter what you call the place,  Christianity threatens anyone who rejects Jesus with eternal suffering in a mythical place. Without threatening those who reject Jesus as miserable sinners and threats of eternal condemnation, the Christian god is powerless and Christianity has no leverage. By contrast there is no evidence that a mythical place called "heaven" exists either....so the carrot stick approach of heaven is made up bullshit too.  

People around the world made up mythical places to go to after death because death is so feared.  If science ever makes human-kind live to be 500 years old religions would die off naturally.

[atheist 101]

What do you believe will be the post-life fate of atheists such as you encounter here?  Are we fucked?

I believe that athiests come back as athiests.

[Dom]

I have to say I have never fantasized about being able to talk again with the dead people I knew.  Even the ones I liked.  

I've always thought of heaven as a horrific place precisely because you're stuck with the very most annoying members of your family and church.   I would deliberately commit a thousand nonharmful to humans sins as defined by gawd (blaspheme against the holy spirit, hold other gods before Yahweh, mix my fabrics, etc.) a thousand times to avoid being in heaven for eternity with my father and mother or the fine Christians of my childhood.  

I'm not sure there is any group of people I'd want to spend an actual eternity with.

I frequently wish I could talk to my mom, dad, two husbands and two closest friends. Thing is, they do live on in your brain, and you can easily imagine their reaction to current events when you think about it. So, in a way, I do talk to them. They certainly still influence my life, just by occupying prominent places in my brain. They pop into my conscious when events occur that they would be able to help with, or help bring more clarity.

I think, to feel like this, you have to be old and have lost those you loved dearly and with whom you spent a lot of time, living together and sharing everything. In any case, it actually becomes irrelevant after you die. It only matters while you are alive. So, there is that. After you are dead, it's pointless.

I don't know that I agree.  I'm old enough to have long-lasting emotionally resonant relationships with deceased people.  I love my husband and son, very much.  Way more than I dislike my parents and the religious people whom I grew up with.  Yet I still don't have any big desire to commune with any of them in an afterlife.  I feel that imagined conversations with them are their own thing, and wouldn't want those conversations to be any more than a literary device.. This  doesn't mean I wouldn't miss these people, but ugh, not heaven.  

Maybe it's a neurotypical thing that I'm missing, being on the spectrum.   However, I'd reiterate that I'm a human with social relationships who values those relationships.  Just has no emotional connection to the idea of afterlife or heaven.

Wait until your husband and/or son die. That is all.

And no, it actually has nothing to do with afterlife, really, because by then it's irrelevant. But, that's what people who believe in the afterlife fantasize about. I have heard that more often than I can shake a stick at.