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New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
#51

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 12:05 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:For instance, since those books came out, the number of Christians on the Supreme Court has grown exponentially.


The number of catholicks has grown.  I know a lot of jesus freak assholes who are not thrilled with that.  They are still living in the 17th century.

But not exponentially. There has been a majority of Catholics on the Supreme Court for quite a long time.
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#52

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 12:32 AM)GenesisNemesis Wrote:
(05-07-2021, 11:04 PM)Lion IRC Wrote: , local house atheists
 

"Local house atheists", you mean regulars. There are regulars on forums, you know. Including atheist forums. That's how that works. I'm already detecting condescension from you as well.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker

Yeah, I was thinking about that. It's quite disrespectful.
He comes to a community and immediately acts disrespectfully.
It's hardly polite, and hardly Christian.
This is an established community which has one thing in common.
He thinks the thing we hold in common is invalid, and inauthentic, and he's here to disrupt the community.
He has no respect for us, and has no boundaries.
I know a lot of people of faith who are respectful of others, and are happy to let their good will and charity speak for them.
He's a troll. This preach it sista shit went out at least a decade ago.
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#53

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-07-2021, 11:04 PM)Lion IRC Wrote: The problem is that personal theistic/religious experience separate from and outside the bible, corroborates what the bible asserts - namely, that people can and do have sensory experience (evidence) of the real presence of divinity.



There is no corrobrating evidence.  You're using the classic circular reasoning fallacy. The Bible is not evidence of itself and you believing the nonsense in it doesn't authenticate any of it.  Hindu's make the same stupid mistake.  They feel the presence of Vishnu and hold up an old book (it's older than the bible, btw) to validate what they feel and as the evidence.  No holy book is evidence, buddy. 

If you really want to prove your god exists then make every effort to falsify your god.   In other words, put your god through a gauntlet of tests that completely discredit the deity.  Because, my dear sweet little flower, it's only when you come at a deity from every angle and try to knock it down and prove it doesn't exist, only then will you know if your god really exists.   

The big problem with this is that everyone has a different idea of what their god is so you cannot define it in a way to test it. There are millions of different god concepts even within the Christian community.    So your god is as unfalsifiable and untestable as an Invisible Garden Fairy, and just as likely to exist.
                                                         T4618
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#54

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 02:06 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(05-07-2021, 11:04 PM)Lion IRC Wrote: The problem is that personal theistic/religious experience separate from and outside the bible, corroborates what the bible asserts - namely, that people can and do have sensory experience (evidence) of the real presence of divinity.



There is no corrobrating evidence.  You're using the classic circular reasoning fallacy. The Bible is not evidence of itself and you believing the nonsense in it doesn't authenticate any of it.  Hindu's make the same stupid mistake.  They feel the presence of Vishnu and hold up an old book (it's older than the bible, btw) to validate what they feel and as the evidence.  No holy book is evidence, buddy. 

If you really want to prove your god exists then make every effort to falsify your god.   In other words, put your god through a gauntlet of tests that completely discredit the deity.  Because, my dear sweet little flower, it's only when you come at a deity from every angle and try to knock it down and prove it doesn't exist, only then will you know if your god really exists.   

The big problem with this is that everyone has a different idea of what their god is so you cannot define it in a way to test it. There are millions of different god concepts even within the Christian community.    So your god is as unfalsifiable and untestable as an Invisible Garden Fairy, and just as likely to exist.

Whaaaaa! Are you saying the invisible fairy that makes my flowers bloom doesn't exist?  Panic
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#55

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-07-2021, 11:04 PM)Lion IRC Wrote: The problem is that personal theistic/religious experience separate from and outside the bible, corroborates what the bible asserts - namely, that people can and do have sensory experience (evidence) of the real presence of divinity.

Really ?
Does your "god-spot" twitch and tingle when Jebus comes around ?
You can tell us. We won't tell anyone.
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#56

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
I remember LIRC from I dunno, AF.org or some other atheist place he trolled. Not worth the fuss, to me.
Freedom isn't free.
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#57

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 01:19 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 12:05 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:For instance, since those books came out, the number of Christians on the Supreme Court has grown exponentially.


The number of catholicks has grown.  I know a lot of jesus freak assholes who are not thrilled with that.  They are still living in the 17th century.

But not exponentially. There has been a majority of Catholics on the Supreme Court for quite a long time.

You know my position, Buck.  Any asshole who thinks a dead jew came back to life to atone for his fucking sins and then flew up to heaven is a xtian.  And they are more than welcome to that title of dishonor!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#58

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 02:34 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I remember LIRC from I dunno, AF.org or some other atheist place he trolled. Not worth the fuss, to me.
duly noted.
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#59

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 12:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-07-2021, 11:04 PM)Lion IRC Wrote: The problem is that personal theistic/religious experience separate from and outside the bible, corroborates what the bible asserts - namely, that people can and do have sensory experience (evidence) of the real presence of divinity.

Anecdotes aren't evidence. Evidence consists of material facts that can be reviewed by third-parties. "Joe Blow said he felt God's presence" is not evidence of anything outside of Joe Blow making a claim about personal feelings.

All evidence is sensory.
Anecdotes are raw data
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#60

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 03:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: All evidence is sensory.

Not so.  Sometimes you need technology, such as an electronic receiver, to collect evidence that is outside the reach of our senses (q.v. the Cosmic Background Radiation, the "echo" of the Big Bang).

Quote:Anecdotes are raw data

Anecdotes by themselves are just a pointer to something that might turn out to be valid information.  Until they're verified empirically they have very little evidentiary weight.
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#61

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 03:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 12:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-07-2021, 11:04 PM)Lion IRC Wrote: The problem is that personal theistic/religious experience separate from and outside the bible, corroborates what the bible asserts - namely, that people can and do have sensory experience (evidence) of the real presence of divinity.

Anecdotes aren't evidence. Evidence consists of material facts that can be reviewed by third-parties. "Joe Blow said he felt God's presence" is not evidence of anything outside of Joe Blow making a claim about personal feelings.

All evidence is sensory.
Anecdotes are raw data

Anecdotes are NOT data.  People claim to have been taken aboard UFO's, examined and returned home. They swear it happened and write text about their experiences.   Hindu's claim they've seen Lord Vishnu in the clouds and have a conversation with him.  These are anecdotal accounts but according to you this is data.  You have no idea what you're talking about. 

The gospels are anecdotal accounts written by anonymous writers who never met Jesus. The were written 40 to 75 years after Jesus died and they're based on decades of storytelling.  None of the text would ever be used in any court of law as evidence. Go learn the difference between a claim and evidence.
                                                         T4618
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#62

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 03:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 12:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-07-2021, 11:04 PM)Lion IRC Wrote: The problem is that personal theistic/religious experience separate from and outside the bible, corroborates what the bible asserts - namely, that people can and do have sensory experience (evidence) of the real presence of divinity.

Anecdotes aren't evidence. Evidence consists of material facts that can be reviewed by third-parties. "Joe Blow said he felt God's presence" is not evidence of anything outside of Joe Blow making a claim about personal feelings.

All evidence is sensory.
Anecdotes are raw data

Your master truly has failed you, young padawan.
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#63

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-07-2021, 12:10 PM)atheist 101 Wrote:
(05-06-2021, 11:36 PM)Free Wrote: Atheists don't need a book to know that the bible is not the word of any god...
The God Delusion and God Is Not Great were both truly great books, I'd recommend both in a heartbeat.

I'd agree (with a couple of reservations about Dawkins' book) but it's pointless posting them
on an atheist site—we've all already read both books, probably more than a decade ago.  You
should be posting them on a Christian/theist site if you really intend to sway somebody.

Quote:...the number of Christians on the Supreme Court has grown exponentially.

Agree that this is of concern—or should be—to the US electorate. Amy Coney Barrett’s confirmation
put focus not only on her faith, but the religious makeup of the entire court itself. Rod Dreher, a
leading conservative light of the Christian right, recently put it: "The best Christians can hope for is
that judges and lawmakers will make it possible for us to live our lives fully as Christians, even in the
public square".

Unfortunately, most of your comments are a given on an atheist site—you're preaching to the choir.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#64

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-07-2021, 11:04 PM)Lion IRC Wrote: Disregarding the stuff about book promo, local house atheists not wanting to be told what they should/must read, etc. I think @atheist 101 's basic premise is right.

Well, you may think that, but on a site devoted to atheism, his suggestion we read Dawkins'
and Hitchens' books was really a waste of time.  It's almost as though he doesn't understand
just how well versed we are in both atheism—and theism.

According to a February 2019 Pew Research Center, atheists and agnostics know more about
religion than most other religious groups. Atheists and agnostics were also among the most
knowledgeable on questions about non-Christian world religions—including Islam, Judaism
and Hinduism.  Atheists are also more likely than any other religious group to correctly answer
questions about religion and the US Constitution.

Quote:It's a strong counter-apologetic IF you can irrefutably/persuasively break the nexus between the text itself and the theophany which gave rise to the text.

The notion of "theophany" is bogus, with zero historical evidence of such a supernatural event
ever occurring.  Theophany has never "given rise" to anything—except to delusional behaviour.

Quote:The problem is that personal theistic/religious experience separate from and outside the bible, corroborates what the bible asserts - namely, that people can and do have sensory experience (evidence) of the real presence of divinity.

No;  people do not and never have had any sensory experiences of the real-world presence of
God or gods.  Many humans have an all-too-ready acceptance of certain events that at first glance
appear to be "divinely" inspired—although such events are easily explicable on further consideration
from an indifferent observer.

Further, if you're going to claim that supernatural entities and paranormal events exist in the real
world, then you need to provide supporting, empirical evidence.  Otherwise, it's just an empty
claim driven by fantasy, superstition, imagination, or wishful thinking by theists.

Quote:All evidence is sensory.

Nope.  This is a nonsensical claim.  We have evidence of magnetism, gravity, radioactivity etc, but
none of your senses is capable of detecting them.       And why is there no mention of those basic
natural forces in the Christian bible?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#65

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 04:51 AM)Astreja Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 03:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: All evidence is sensory.

Not so.  Sometimes you need technology, such as an electronic receiver, to collect evidence that is outside the reach of our senses (q.v. the Cosmic Background Radiation, the "echo" of the Big Bang).
 


Isn't technology just a transmission device?
Alexander Graham Bell and Thomas Watson believed in the existence of each other's voice notwithstanding the technology used to deliver the experience.
This is an interesting line of discussion. 
Im interested in your further thoughts. 

Quote:
Quote:Anecdotes are raw data

Anecdotes by themselves are just a pointer to something that might turn out to be valid information.  Until they're verified empirically they have very little evidentiary weight.

Sure. Patients tell their doctors anecdotes. Researchers gather anecdotes about a vast range of sensory experience. Science would stop if we couldn't consider what we learn from our eyes and ears.
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#66

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 07:30 AM)SYZ Wrote: if you're going to claim that supernatural entities and paranormal events exist in the real world, then you need to provide supporting, empirical evidence.

Why?
So you can just hand-wave, special plead, gainsay...

(05-08-2021, 07:30 AM)SYZ Wrote: ...the notion of "theophany" is bogus, with zero historical evidence of such a supernatural event
ever occurring.  

...people do not and never have had any sensory experiences of the real-world presence of
God or gods.  
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#67

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 09:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 07:30 AM)SYZ Wrote: if you're going to claim that supernatural entities and paranormal events exist in the real world, then you need to provide supporting, empirical evidence.

Why?  So you can just hand-wave, special plead, gainsay...

LOL... mate, as a theist, you're the one using special pleading.  That without any evidence at all to
the positive claim that he and/or it exists in the real world, we just should believe that God or gods
exist—without any questioning.

So... I'll ask you AGAIN for your evidence that gods exist.  Or don't you (apparently) have any?  Oh dear.      Facepalm

Quote:Patients tell their doctors anecdotes. Researchers gather anecdotes about a vast range of sensory experience. Science would stop if we couldn't consider what we learn from our eyes and ears.

It's obvious that you don't know the true meaning of the term "anecdote"; an account regarded as
unreliable or hearsay
. And the Christian bible is composed entirely of anecdotes—that is, with no
verifiable proof that any of its fantastic claims ever actually happened.

And of course  science uses our observational skills (duh) in order to advance our knowledge base—in
comparison to religionists who rely on millennia-old dogma written by ill-educated desert nomads who
thought the earth was flat, and that it was stationary in space, with the sun rotating around it.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#68

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 03:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: All evidence is sensory.

It doesn't follow that all sensations are evidence.

(05-08-2021, 03:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: Anecdotes are raw data

No. A data-set (because remember, "data" is the plural of "datum") consists of information that has been collated and examined for utility and veracity.

None of this is even addressing the very real fact that people often lie about their experiences.

As a result, I don't care about your personal experiences thinking you've felt divine presence, and that that demonstrates your god's existence. It's extremely unconvincing and not worth my time.
Freedom isn't free.
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#69

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 03:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 12:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-07-2021, 11:04 PM)Lion IRC Wrote: The problem is that personal theistic/religious experience separate from and outside the bible, corroborates what the bible asserts - namely, that people can and do have sensory experience (evidence) of the real presence of divinity.

Anecdotes aren't evidence. Evidence consists of material facts that can be reviewed by third-parties. "Joe Blow said he felt God's presence" is not evidence of anything outside of Joe Blow making a claim about personal feelings.

All evidence is sensory.
Anecdotes are raw data

Wrong, preacher man.
Anecdotes are not data, unless they are received and verified and organized.
Anecdotes are NEVER considered data in any context ... legal or scientific. We get you know nothing about either.
All evidence is not sensory. Sensory inputs are first inputted, and depending on the state of the receiver, (the health for example of the optic nerves). may or may not be reliable to various levels of reliability, then integrated, (the process for which may be flawed, according to learned experience) and then PROCESSED by complex systems in the brain, and INTERPRETED by the brain according to what it already knows, (which is accessed in stored memory, which also may be flawed), and the OUTPUT is what is experienced. You never directly experience sensory inputs. If you get a burn, you do not directly experience the excited states of the electrons. Your brain interprets what's happening ... and this is exactly where your "experience of the divine" bullshit falls apart. You have no experience of the divine. You have a complex set of inputs which are INTERPRETED. Better go take some basic biology and neuro-science. Your experience of the divine is crap, and has no basis AT ALL. Two people can experience the same thing, and interpret it differently. For example a religionist who prays for an hour in a quiet church may have a higher than normal level of endorphins, and interpret the "peace" as godly. The very same experience, achieved by a runner after his/her endorphin level has been raised by running, would not interpret it as "godly" but as "runners high". Your statement about the experience of the divine is bullshit.

Take off your glasses (literally). Your experience of the very same reality is not the same.
The good thing about this fact, is that everything religious people interpret as the "positives" from their religious experiences are available to everyone, religious or not,
and can be induced or just experienced, .... no gods necessary. No human experience is limited only to the religious.

You're making up shit to try to justify the very WEAK basis you think your cult is based on.
Faith is not based on either anecdotes or evidence or even science.
The very basics seem to elude you ... even at this late date.

How about you tell us how you KNOW the universe had a beginning.
I mean seriously, if Roger Penrose doesn't think so, but Lion does, who ya gonna believe ? Duh.
The Big Bang Theory says NOTHING about a beginning of anything.
Christians took over the theory, misrepresented it, (lied about it) and use it for their purpose.
LOL
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#70

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 05:17 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 03:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 12:50 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Anecdotes aren't evidence. Evidence consists of material facts that can be reviewed by third-parties. "Joe Blow said he felt God's presence" is not evidence of anything outside of Joe Blow making a claim about personal feelings.

All evidence is sensory.
Anecdotes are raw data

Anecdotes are NOT data.  People claim to have been taken aboard UFO's, examined and returned home. They swear it happened and write text about their experiences.   Hindu's claim they've seen Lord Vishnu in the clouds and have a conversation with him.  These are anecdotal accounts but according to you this is data.  You have no idea what you're talking about. 

The gospels are anecdotal accounts written by anonymous writers who never met Jesus. The were written 40 to 75 years after Jesus died and they're based on decades of storytelling.  None of the text would ever be used in any court of law as evidence. Go learn the difference between a claim and evidence.

"That's just Satan talking to them!" Can we give that a name? How about Satan-of-the-gaps?  Tongue
Sometimes you just have no words all you can do is laugh at the stupidity. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#71

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 12:25 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 03:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: All evidence is sensory.

It doesn't follow that all sensations are evidence.

(05-08-2021, 03:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote: Anecdotes are raw data

No. A data-set (because remember, "data" is the plural of "datum") consists of information that has been collated and examined for utility and veracity.

None of this is even addressing the very real fact that people often lie about their experiences.

As a result, I don't care about your personal experiences thinking you've felt divine presence, and that that demonstrates your god's existence. It's extremely unconvincing and not worth my time.

In my personal experience, I can have a meaningful life without belief in god. Oh right, Lion discounts all personal experiences that don't conform to his beliefs.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker
Sometimes you just have no words all you can do is laugh at the stupidity. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
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#72

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 01:20 PM)GenesisNemesis Wrote: In my personal experience, I can have a meaningful life without belief in god. Oh right, Lion discounts all personal experiences that don't conform to his beliefs.  Deadpan Coffee Drinker

He doesn't address the possibility of hallucinations, either. Anyone who's fasted for a good stretch, or gone without sleep for a long period of time, or has enjoyed psychedelics, can tell you that sensory experiences aren't necessarily accurate representations of an objective reality. That's not even addressing the fact of optical/audible illusions.
Freedom isn't free.
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#73

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 09:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 07:30 AM)SYZ Wrote: if you're going to claim that supernatural entities and paranormal events exist in the real world, then you need to provide supporting, empirical evidence.

Why?
So you can just hand-wave, special plead, gainsay...

(05-08-2021, 07:30 AM)SYZ Wrote: ...the notion of "theophany" is bogus, with zero historical evidence of such a supernatural event
ever occurring.  

...people do not and never have had any sensory experiences of the real-world presence of
God or gods.  

No, you pathetic nitwit.  Because you make an extraordinary claim, YOU provide the evidence.  The burden of proof is on the claimant and no one else.   Also, theists have a corner market on special pleading crap.  When no evidence is ever provided theists constantly fall back on special pleading fallacies.

So again, provide evidence your god exists.   

I'll wait.

Waiting
                                                         T4618
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#74

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 04:28 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: No, you pathetic nitwit.  Because you make an extraordinary claim, YOU provide the evidence. 

[...]

So again, provide evidence your god exists.   

An idea that cannot withstand skeptical scrutiny is probably not worth holding.

He's not providing evidence because there is no evidence for an Abrahamic god.
Freedom isn't free.
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#75

New book proves conclusively that the Bible is not the word of a god
(05-08-2021, 09:59 AM)Lion IRC Wrote:
(05-08-2021, 07:30 AM)SYZ Wrote: if you're going to claim that supernatural entities and paranormal events exist in the real world, then you need to provide supporting, empirical evidence.

Why?
So you can just hand-wave, special plead, gainsay...

No. Because the burden is yours. You're making the claim, you get to prove it. It really is that simple.
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