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Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
#1
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Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
I came across an well researched book on yoga that pulls the curtain back on it's mystical past.  It ain't so mystical and it sure ain't 5000 years old as many people claim.  The poses go all the way back to ummmmmm, about 150 years ago and were developed during the British occupation of India.   The book is called  "Yoga Body: The Origins of Modern Posture Practice"  by Mark Singleton.  Mysticism certainly goes back through the millennia but yoga poses are a recent creation based on gymnastics and the calisthenics practices by the British military of the 1860's.  Yoga poses are a sort of stew pot of physical activity and intermingling of Victorian times along with the Hindu rise of nationalism.

There's an article which responds to all the flack that Mark Singleton has gotten when he killed the Holy Cow of yoga and I think this sentence says it all. 

Quote: Singleton illuminates one of the core mechanisms of transnational yoga marketing: a new thing becomes an attractive and sellable thing by being wrapped in the mantle of antiquity.

https://yogainternational.com/article/vi...t-to-under

Accupuncture is in the same boat.  People claim it's 3000 years old.  It isn't.   A researcher dug through ancient text trying to find refrences to accupuncture practices.  He found that needles were used to lance boils in 90 CE but this method was also used in crude Western medicines.  There was no "Chi" or meridians in which needles were inserted just under the skin until 300 years ago and maybe 400 years ago if we stretch the information a little.

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/punctur...ture-myth/
                                                         T4618
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#2

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
Interesting how some people perceive great age of a practice as validating its efficacy, whereas in many contexts the older information is the less it can be relied on.  In aircraft maintenance it's illegal to use obsolete technical information.  The same is probably true in medicine.  In medicine practitioners are required to to stay current with CME attendance.  In law the law that applies is the law in force at the time of the event that gave rise to the case.  I'd be surprised if attorneys don't have to comply with CLE attendance.

Yet Yoga and Acupuncture derive their "validity" from supposedly being ancient.  Funny.  And then we compound the absurdity by lying about how old something is to make it appear older!  Tongue
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#3

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
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Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#4

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
Not to mention that even *if* something is really old... how exactly does this imbue it with a profound wisdom beyond our puny modern-day brains? Because people knew more back when we didn't have a clue where that big round ball in the sky goes at night and what makes clouds go boom or splish-splash? Gimme a break.

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#5

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
(04-03-2021, 08:17 PM)Minimalist Wrote: [Image: RaEWeg8.jpeg]

I had appendicitis at age 35. Would have killed me if I had lived back then. The peritonitis nearly killed me as it was.
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#6

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
I remember in the Bhagavad Gita (BCE, ... don't remember the dates), Krishna talks about the types of yoga. I think were are/were four.
Each was a path to moksha. Been ages since I read that stuff.
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#7

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
(04-03-2021, 10:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: I remember in the Bhagavad Gita (BCE, ... don't remember the dates), Krishna talks about the types of yoga. I think were are/were four.
Each was a path to moksha. Been ages since I read that stuff.

For sure, yoga as a form of meditation and spiritualism has been around for a few thousand years but the poses are from the 19th century.  However, all cultures have some form of meditation and spiritualsim that is ancient.  Villages and cities in ancient China, Africa Australia and the Americas had sage elders who gave sage advice about life and they sat around cross legged contemplating the universe to find personal peace.  Yoga does not have the corner market on meditation.   

I've read some of the Yoga websites who use the same circular fallacy Christians use to promote their views.   But I'm finding that the idea of passing something off as old and antique to give it more gravitas and appeal in the 21st century is used in religions, yoga, acupuncture and probably a bunch of other stuff.
                                                         T4618
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#8

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
If it works, does it matter how old it is?

If it doesn't work, does it matter how old it is?

Why is any alleged deep history meaningful at all?
Freedom isn't free.
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#9

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
(04-04-2021, 12:53 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: If it works, does it matter how old it is?

If it doesn't work, does it matter how old it is?

Why is any alleged deep history meaningful at all?
There's something in human nature that seeks occult / special knowledge; it makes you special because you're clued in and others aren't. Bonus points if it's the wisdom of the ancients which you're helping to restore to humanity.

There are whole religious sects based on the notion of restoring lost revelation from the Long Ago. Mormonism styles itself as restoring the original, "primitive", true Christianity that was lost somewhere between the first generations of Christians and the Council of Nicea. The Jehovah's Witnesses use this same theme, and for good measure have their own translation of the Bible (the New World Translation) that is supposed to fix certain claimed errors and biases in all the other translations (imagine the arrogance of suggesting that you alone got it right after centuries of scholarly effort to produce other English translations). The charismatic / pentecostal / holiness movements claim to provide an experience of the Holy Spirit that's missing from Christianity prior to these movements rising up in the early 20th century. Evangelicals and their predecessors, since the time of Darby in the 1830s, have claimed to restore a vital, living faith to a moribund, even dead church -- we need personal experiences, not tradition and ritual, don'thca know?

The search for a deus ex machina is a perennial human quest because it promises simplicity: if we can just get a couple of things tweaked, or just give up one thing for Lent, everything will suddenly be okay and comprehensible and fair and predictable, unlike how it's been for all of human history. As the Mormons for example have it, Christianity has been done the wrong way; we just need secret tablets and special glasses to read them so we can produce another holy book which we can read while wearing special holy underwear and this will correct all those pesky errors in the original holy book. This will restore the ancient story of the lost tribe of Israel and its forgotten history in the New World. Honest!
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#10

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
(04-04-2021, 02:16 AM)mordant Wrote:
(04-04-2021, 12:53 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: If it works, does it matter how old it is?

If it doesn't work, does it matter how old it is?

Why is any alleged deep history meaningful at all?
There's something in human nature that seeks occult / special knowledge; it makes you special because you're clued in and others aren't. Bonus points if it's the wisdom of the ancients which you're helping to restore to humanity.

There are whole religious sects based on the notion of restoring lost revelation from the Long Ago. Mormonism styles itself as restoring the original, "primitive", true Christianity that was lost somewhere between the first generations of Christians and the Council of Nicea. The Jehovah's Witnesses use this same theme, and for good measure have their own translation of the Bible (the New World Translation) that is supposed to fix certain claimed errors and biases in all the other translations (imagine the arrogance of suggesting that you alone got it right after centuries of scholarly effort to produce other English translations). The charismatic / pentecostal / holiness movements claim to provide an experience of the Holy Spirit that's missing from Christianity prior to these movements rising up in the early 20th century. Evangelicals and their predecessors, since the time of Darby in the 1830s, have claimed to restore a vital, living faith to a moribund, even dead church -- we need personal experiences, not tradition and ritual, don'thca know?

The search for a deus ex machina is a perennial human quest because it promises simplicity: if we can just get a couple of things tweaked, or just give up one thing for Lent, everything will suddenly be okay and comprehensible and fair and predictable, unlike how it's been for all of human history. As the Mormons for example have it, Christianity has been done the wrong way; we just need secret tablets and special glasses to read them so we can produce another holy book which we can read while wearing special holy underwear and this will correct all those pesky errors in the original holy book. This will restore the ancient story of the lost tribe of Israel and its forgotten history in the New World. Honest!

All I'm saying is that its age has no influence on its veracity, or utility. If people find yoga useful now, who cares if claims of five millennia's worth of history are true or not? Whether it's 200 or 5000 years old, if physical meditation like that helps someone and doesn't harm me, I don't have a problem with it. The provenance or lack thereof, meh.
Freedom isn't free.
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#11

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
One of the issues in Australia concerning acupuncture is that it's often performed by
GPs (MD in the US) which means they can claim back a subsidy for their service under
our federal Medicare provisions.  Which also means, in effect, that the taxpayers are
funding this nonsensical "therapy" regardless of its efficacy—or in this case, lack of.

THIS site is typical of the hundreds of so-called traditional Chinese medicine (TCM)
practices in Australia.  And it'll cost you A$135 for your first consultation, and thereafter
A$85 for each followup consultation.

It's also outrageous that our state government runs a site called Better Health Channel
that seems to endorse acupuncture.  In doing so, it reinforces several doubtful or biassed
claims:

Scientific trials around the world have found that acupuncture is a
safe and useful treatment for many different disorders—no current
clinical references cited.

The British National Health Service found that there was evidence
that acupuncture is effective to treat dental pain, jaw pain and to
control nausea after operations and chemotherapy treatment—no
current clinical references cited. [15-year-old survey]

Results of a systematic review that combined data from 11 clinical
trials with more than 1,200 participants suggested that acupuncture
may help with certain symptoms associated with cancer treatments.

Clinical guidelines published in many different countries have found
that acupuncture is moderately helpful in a wide range of conditions,
particularly those which involve pain.

Results from a number of studies suggest that acupuncture may help
ease types of pain that are often chronic such as low-back pain, neck
pain, and osteoarthritis/knee pain. It also may help reduce the frequency
of tension headaches and prevent migraine headaches.

—Many of the references link back to the US government's site, the
National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH).

The problem with "integrative" medicine is that, to paraphrase MD
Mark Crislip, mixing cow pie with apple pie does not make the apple
pie taste better; IE mixing unscientific, pseudo-scientific, and mystical
quackery like acupuncture and much of traditional Chinese medicine
does not make science-based medicine better. Rather, it contaminates
it with quackery, just as the cow pie contaminates the apple pie.

(Mark Alden Crislip MD is an infectious disease doctor in Portland,
Oregon and chief of infectious diseases at Legacy Health hospital
system, who also hosts the QuackCast podcast.)

The NCCIH investigates (and tacitly promotes) alternative medicine
including dietary and herbal supplements; mind and body practices,
including meditation; yoga; qigong; acupuncture; spinal manipulation
(both chiropractic and osteopathic); and other approaches, such as
homeopathy, naturopathy, ayurveda, and traditional Chinese medicine.

I note that in China, some quack doctors are utilising qigong (!) to "treat"
COVID-19 patients who are immunocompromised.  Qigong is similar to
yoga—coordinated body-posture and movement, breathing, and meditation.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#12

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
It's well known that Yoda was 900 years old.
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#13

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
(04-04-2021, 04:55 PM)SYZ Wrote: One of the issues in Australia concerning acupuncture is that it's often performed by
GPs (MD in the US) which means they can claim back a subsidy for their service under
our federal Medicare provisions.  Which also means, in effect, that the taxpayers are
funding this nonsensical "therapy" regardless of its efficacy—or in this case, lack of.

THIS site is typical of the hundreds of so-called traditional Chinese medicine (TCM)
practices in Australia.  And it'll cost you A$135 for your first consultation, and thereafter
A$85 for each followup consultation.

It's also outrageous that our state government runs a site called Better Health Channel
that seems to endorse acupuncture.  In doing so, it reinforces several doubtful or biassed
claims:

Scientific trials around the world have found that acupuncture is a
safe and useful treatment for many different disorders—no current
clinical references cited.

The British National Health Service found that there was evidence
that acupuncture is effective to treat dental pain, jaw pain and to
control nausea after operations and chemotherapy treatment—no
current clinical references cited. [15-year-old survey]

Results of a systematic review that combined data from 11 clinical
trials with more than 1,200 participants suggested that acupuncture
may help with certain symptoms associated with cancer treatments.

Clinical guidelines published in many different countries have found
that acupuncture is moderately helpful in a wide range of conditions,
particularly those which involve pain.

Results from a number of studies suggest that acupuncture may help
ease types of pain that are often chronic such as low-back pain, neck
pain, and osteoarthritis/knee pain. It also may help reduce the frequency
of tension headaches and prevent migraine headaches.

—Many of the references link back to the US government's site, the
National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH).

The problem with "integrative" medicine is that, to paraphrase MD
Mark Crislip, mixing cow pie with apple pie does not make the apple
pie taste better; IE mixing unscientific, pseudo-scientific, and mystical
quackery like acupuncture and much of traditional Chinese medicine
does not make science-based medicine better. Rather, it contaminates
it with quackery, just as the cow pie contaminates the apple pie.

(Mark Alden Crislip MD is an infectious disease doctor in Portland,
Oregon and chief of infectious diseases at Legacy Health hospital
system, who also hosts the QuackCast podcast.)

The NCCIH investigates (and tacitly promotes) alternative medicine
including dietary and herbal supplements; mind and body practices,
including meditation; yoga; qigong; acupuncture; spinal manipulation
(both chiropractic and osteopathic); and other approaches, such as
homeopathy, naturopathy, ayurveda, and traditional Chinese medicine.

I note that in China, some quack doctors are utilising qigong (!) to "treat"
COVID-19 patients who are immunocompromised.  Qigong is similar to
yoga—coordinated body-posture and movement, breathing, and meditation.

I've had acupuncture a few times.  What it does is it releases endorphins and other feel good chemicals in your brain.   Yoga does the same thing.  So does holding someone's hand who is listening to your troubles.  Music can release dopamine.  A good massage does the trick too.   It sure ain't going to cure a bad cold but it makes you feel better about feeling so damned miserable.   It's sort of like the chicken soup your mother brought you when you were sick.  

My problem with the yoga positions is that it's being packaged as ancient and therefore has stood the test of time, therefore it's a path to a deeper "truth".   Oops,  I need to capitalize it......"Truth".  There we go.  When I capitalize the first letter in Truth it makes it more true---->   Dodgy

Every yoga website touts this as fact and it's not fact.  The only thing that is ancient is the meditation and maybe the chakras.  There's a lot of Buddhism enlightenment stuff woven in there too.  Every yoga teacher I've ever had thinks the poses are 5000 years old and I guess I'm a meanie and a real son of a bitch because I'd like to set them straight and pop this little yoga fantasy.     Big Grin
                                                         T4618
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#14

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
(04-04-2021, 05:35 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Every yoga website touts this as fact and it's not fact.  The only thing that is ancient is the meditation and maybe the chakras.   

And chakras (and prana and the like) are utter and unadulterated bullcrap. We breathe air, have blood in our veins, hormones and other such to make a nice mess out of our brains and that's it. That's all she wrote.

(I can't imagine getting poked with needles releasing dopamine but to each their own. They say getting likes on your selfies (or forum posts Tongue ) releases dopamine too so there's that too Angel )
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#15

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
Paul Kempisty, (who describes himself as a New York State licensed Acupuncturist and a Board
certified Herbalist)  explains;  "Acupuncture is a minimally invasive method to stimulate nerve-rich
areas of the skin surface in order to influence tissues, gland, organs, and various functions of the
body. Each acupuncture needle produces a tiny injury at the insertion site, and although it’s slight
enough to cause little to no discomfort, it’s enough of a signal to let the body know it needs to
respond. This response involves stimulation of the immune system, promoting circulation to the
area, wound healing, and pain modulation".

Of course, this is all unadulterated bullshit, particularly that last sentence.

For anybody interested in reading one of the most untruthful, deceptive and criminally irresponsible
pseudo-medical sites on the WWW, check out the Paul Kempisty web site about "holistic health".

He also makes the grand claim that "The World Health Organization (WHO), recognizes Acupuncture
as an effective tool for treating the following health conditions" (it does not) which precedes around
100 conditions from diarrhea to bronchitis, cataracts, depression, arthritis, Parkinson's, hypertension,
haemorrhoids, epilepsy, tinnitus and toothache!

—Shit... where do I sign the cheque?       Facepalm
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#16

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
The North Carolina Zoo is paying a lady to do acupuncture on a 6.5 ton bull elephant. I could tell from the video that the needles didn't penetrate all the way through the skin. It was fun to watch her make up "points" where the procedure would help.
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#17

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
(04-05-2021, 04:34 PM)SYZ Wrote: Paul Kempisty, (who describes himself as a New York State licensed Acupuncturist and a Board
certified Herbalist)  explains;  "Acupuncture is a minimally invasive method to stimulate nerve-rich
areas of the skin surface in order to influence tissues, gland, organs, and various functions of the
body. Each acupuncture needle produces a tiny injury at the insertion site, and although it’s slight
enough to cause little to no discomfort, it’s enough of a signal to let the body know it needs to
respond. This response involves stimulation of the immune system, promoting circulation to the
area, wound healing, and pain modulation".

Of course, this is all unadulterated bullshit, particularly that last sentence.

For anybody interested in reading one of the most untruthful, deceptive and criminally irresponsible
pseudo-medical sites on the WWW, check out the Paul Kempisty web site about "holistic health".

He also makes the grand claim that "The World Health Organization (WHO), recognizes Acupuncture
as an effective tool for treating the following health conditions" (it does not) which precedes around
100 conditions from diarrhea to bronchitis, cataracts, depression, arthritis, Parkinson's, hypertension,
haemorrhoids, epilepsy, tinnitus and toothache!

—Shit... where do I sign the cheque?       Facepalm

I agree.  It does none of that.  It doesn't cure anything.  It's pure placebo effect which releases feel good hormones.  It doesn't cure anything.   The "nerve rich areas of the body"??  Almost every part of the body is nerve rich.    But the needles don't even hurt, they're almost the size of a human hair so you don't feel them at all.   Basically someone is paying attention to you and only you. That's what it's all about.   Voodoo and Japanese Reiki  (theraputic touch) is the same thing.  None of this should be covered by insurance.   

This should interest you SYZ.   Most likely it will make you angry but the 10 year old girl doing the experiment is so smart.  She wrote a paper on her experiment and I think it ended up being peer reviewed and published in the Journal of American Medical Association. She was the youngest person to ever have a science paper published.   

                                                         T4618
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#18

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
Place I volunteered at in Brazil, there was an AROMATHERAPIST treating a parrot/macaw who had almost no feathers left. Facepalm The biologist and vet there told me that the disease had reached the point where it was physically impossible for new feathers to grow (forgot the name, but the "roots" were dead). The vet was better at hiding his feelings I guess but the biologist couldn't stand her and would disappear the moment he saw the aroma quack or even heard she'd be coming.

Also, if someone tries to "heal" me by touching me, therapeutically or otherwise, they better *pray* acupuncture and reiki work, 'cause I'm gonna be breaking bones Dodgy
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#19

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
(04-05-2021, 05:54 PM)Vera Wrote: Place I volunteered at in Brazil, there was an AROMATHERAPIST treating a parrot/macaw who had almost no feathers left.  Facepalm The biologist and vet there told me that the disease had reached the point where it was physically impossible for new feathers to grow (forgot the name, but the "roots" were dead). The vet was better at hiding his feelings I guess but the biologist couldn't stand her and would disappear the moment he saw the aroma quack or even heard she'd be coming.

Also, if someone tries to "heal" me by touching me, therapeutically or otherwise, they better *pray* acupuncture and reiki work, 'cause I'm gonna be breaking bones Dodgy

The funny part of therapeutic touch is that the practitioner, or whatever they call themselves, never actually touch the person. They wave their hands a few inches away from the person to move their "energy field" around.....or something.
                                                         T4618
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#20

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
Acupuncture could be a lot older than 3000 years. One of the theories about 5300 year old Otzi the Iceman's 19 groups of 61 different tattoos is they were applied during acupuncture procedures. It's a good theory as most of them were applied directly above areas where forensic examination of the body says he would have been experiencing pain while he was still alive. I believe there are examples of other mummies from Peru and China with similar tattoos that are believed to have also been related to acupuncture.
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#21

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
"Whole Health" at the VA. Your tax dollars are paying those quacks.
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#22

Yoga is not 5000 years old, Acupuncture isn't 3000 years old
(04-05-2021, 05:38 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: ...This should interest you SYZ.   Most likely it will make you angry but the 10 year old girl doing the experiment is so smart.  She wrote a paper on her experiment and I think it ended up being peer reviewed and published in the Journal of American Medical Association. She was the youngest person to ever have a science paper published.  

Thanks for the link Dancer.  I think the most irritating part was when that woman who was being
treated for leukemia, a potentially terminal disease—with a survival rate of around 60%—said she
"didn't care" how so-called therapeutic touch worked, but that she had "faith" in it.  And yes; that
little girl was so smart in figuring out, and proving, what a load of bullshit TT is.

It was also amusing (but predictable) that the TT practitioners she trialled refused, even after they'd
all failed dismally, to admit defeat.

The sugar pill thing was so funny too.  Sad, but funny.

RIP James Randi [1928-2020]
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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