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Praying with Patients
#51

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 01:43 PM)Dom Wrote: Regarding the religious theme here, in my eyes a lot has to do with the age of the person. For the old, religion has become the crutch they have grown to need to deal with the adversity old age invariably brings. When you experience the loss of your peers as well as your physical capabilities, a crutch may be all you have left to lean on.

A good thing to note here is that the young coming up nowadays don't face nearly the religious programming that we faced when we were younger. It's true that difficulties can make one more susceptible to religion as they age, I guess; but I also think the lack of indoctrination in their youths may make the generations behind us less inclined to see that as an answer.

Obviously I don't know, and this may be completely off -- wishful thinking.
Freedom isn't free.
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#52

Praying with Patients
Religitards are conditioned to thank their invisible friend when things go good and blame themselves when things suck.

The most lucrative scam in human history.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#53

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 07:00 PM)Dom Wrote: The norm of humankind may differ wildly from the norm around you. And it's not only that people handle and show emotions differently, genetically we are endowed with different amounts of each (evolution at work there). 

Yes, there may be people all over the globe with the same volume and degree of a particular emotion, but they are not where I am. If they were, they would interbreed and it would be the norm where I am.

Evolution always tries to adjust every life form to thrive under particular conditions, and it experiments with us, probing changes this way and that. Our internal chemistry, which drives our emotions, is a part of that experiment.

Well, I, personally, don't feel comfortable assuming what goes on in the heads of the rest of humanity, including people I know well, and I *especially* do not feel comfortable assuming they feel things less strongly than I do or that their pain is less than mine.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#54

Praying with Patients
(04-28-2021, 02:28 PM)Vera Wrote:
(04-27-2021, 07:00 PM)Dom Wrote: The norm of humankind may differ wildly from the norm around you. And it's not only that people handle and show emotions differently, genetically we are endowed with different amounts of each (evolution at work there). 

Yes, there may be people all over the globe with the same volume and degree of a particular emotion, but they are not where I am. If they were, they would interbreed and it would be the norm where I am.

Evolution always tries to adjust every life form to thrive under particular conditions, and it experiments with us, probing changes this way and that. Our internal chemistry, which drives our emotions, is a part of that experiment.

Well, I, personally, don't feel comfortable assuming what goes on in the heads of the rest of humanity, including people I know well, and I *especially* do not feel comfortable assuming they feel things less strongly than I do or that their pain is less than mine.

It is absolutely impossible to know what chemical reaction anyone will have to a particular stimulus. We are all different. Some people cry at the drop of a hat, some almost never do. Some laugh easily, some hardly ever do. Some get angry easily, some don't.  These are all automatic responses. All these responses to stimuli are chemically induced. You are what you are. You can only see things from your own perspective, and there is really no point in judging anyone because of chemically induced reactions, everyone can only work with what they got. 

The control you have is to make it work, for you. What works for you may not work for others because of the huge curve our chemistry occupies. Science has kind of done away with a lot of what we judge others on, they don't choose to be that way. But, we judge people anyway.
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#55

Praying with Patients
(03-31-2021, 01:45 AM)Nursey Wrote: What would you have done?

OK, not that I'd expect to keep my job after any of these but...

 - Take her hand hungrily an explain through tear-filled eyes that nobody has asked you to pray with them since your gender change.

 - Tell her that your soul is allergic to prayer.

 - Ask her to count backwards from 668.
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#56

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 06:44 PM)Buzzard Wrote: I am new to this forum and I don't want to offend intentionally.  But I am not new to life or to atheism.  When I say we, I am referring to my fellow atheists.  Yes, I know we are individuals and everyone's opinion and life experience is different.  And I don't necessarily think my opinion is better or even the right opinion.  But, it is my opinion and I came on to this forum to discuss it.

Now, in my opinion, atheists tend to get a bit of a superiority complex because we were skeptical, we really looked a religion with logic and clarity, we discovered the fallacy of god worshipping religions, and now  we know the truth and they don't.  So we think we can look down on those who did not discover our truth and we should feel free to insult them and attack them, both privately and publicly.  

I was like that.  But I grew old and I grew tired of fighting.  I had to accept that many of my friends and family did not agree with me.  I had to accept that it was not an insult if they said to me, "God bless you."  

I had to finally learn that being an atheist was not all that defined me.  It was not even the most important thing that defined me.  And that, again in my opinion, made me a better atheist and a better person.

Welcome to the forum Buzz. A few suggestions if I may?

Try not to describe yourself as "truly" atheist or "better" person. We get enough of that from the religious fanatics. It carries the implication that anybody who dares disagree is "untrue" and "lesser" and combines the worst of the True Scottsman fallacy with poisoning the well. It's also commonly used by raging anti-theists and I doubt that you want to be mistaken for one.

You talk a good fight when it comes to empathy but you clearly aren't spreading it around equally. I understand the impulse to empathize with the patient, who clearly is frightened and in a lot of distress. That's only half the story though and being new to this forum you won't know Nursey's back-story. She lives in an area populated by True Christians of the most devout variety. She gets religion stuffed down her throat on a regular basis by friends, family, and coworkers. She can rightly worry about being fired for not being religious enough. "Atheist" is a term reserved for the vilest of insults. Now add to all that somebody who wants to force you into a ritual that not only you don't believe in but which effectively says that they don't trust you not to kill them on the operating table. It's degrading and it's stoopid.

If she needs somebody to pray with her then there's always the chaplain. If the chaplain isn't good enough then the problem isn't the medical professionals.
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#57

Praying with Patients
(05-02-2021, 09:39 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(03-31-2021, 01:45 AM)Nursey Wrote: What would you have done?

OK, not that I'd expect to keep my job after any of these but...

 - Take her hand hungrily an explain through tear-filled eyes that nobody has asked you to pray with them since your gender change.

 - Tell her that your soul is allergic to prayer.

 - Ask her to count backwards from 668.

Tell her you would love to help but you're a demon summoner.
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#58

Praying with Patients
(05-02-2021, 10:41 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(04-27-2021, 06:44 PM)Buzzard Wrote: I am new to this forum and I don't want to offend intentionally.  But I am not new to life or to atheism.  When I say we, I am referring to my fellow atheists.  Yes, I know we are individuals and everyone's opinion and life experience is different.  And I don't necessarily think my opinion is better or even the right opinion.  But, it is my opinion and I came on to this forum to discuss it.

Now, in my opinion, atheists tend to get a bit of a superiority complex because we were skeptical, we really looked a religion with logic and clarity, we discovered the fallacy of god worshipping religions, and now  we know the truth and they don't.  So we think we can look down on those who did not discover our truth and we should feel free to insult them and attack them, both privately and publicly.  

I was like that.  But I grew old and I grew tired of fighting.  I had to accept that many of my friends and family did not agree with me.  I had to accept that it was not an insult if they said to me, "God bless you."  

I had to finally learn that being an atheist was not all that defined me.  It was not even the most important thing that defined me.  And that, again in my opinion, made me a better atheist and a better person.

Welcome to the forum Buzz. A few suggestions if I may?

Try not to describe yourself as "truly" atheist or "better" person. We get enough of that from the religious fanatics. It carries the implication that anybody who dares disagree is "untrue" and "lesser" and combines the worst of the True Scottsman fallacy with poisoning the well. It's also commonly used by raging anti-theists and I doubt that you want to be mistaken for one.

You talk a good fight when it comes to empathy but you clearly aren't spreading it around equally.

I find that entirely insulting. If I or any other atheist can't be a "dedicated" atheist here on an atheist discussion board, where exactly are we supposed to be? My focus on life is organized as an atheist. Everyone who is not is, by definition, "theist". Which means to me that they are superstitious, non-factual, and irrational. And I consider that rational and atheistic thought actually DOES make me a "better person".

So to be blunt about it, who is in the wrong place? Me or you? I am actually curious about this. The answer seems obvious given the name of the forum, but is atheism and atheists NOT the default position here?

I am actually very angry at reading a suggested condemnation of being "truly atheist". But I am and have been for the 60 years of general adult life (I'm 70). What you basically said was "don't be".
Atheist born and when I die, still an atheist...
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#59

Praying with Patients
(05-03-2021, 06:55 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(05-02-2021, 10:41 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(04-27-2021, 06:44 PM)Buzzard Wrote: I am new to this forum and I don't want to offend intentionally.  But I am not new to life or to atheism.  When I say we, I am referring to my fellow atheists.  Yes, I know we are individuals and everyone's opinion and life experience is different.  And I don't necessarily think my opinion is better or even the right opinion.  But, it is my opinion and I came on to this forum to discuss it.

Now, in my opinion, atheists tend to get a bit of a superiority complex because we were skeptical, we really looked a religion with logic and clarity, we discovered the fallacy of god worshipping religions, and now  we know the truth and they don't.  So we think we can look down on those who did not discover our truth and we should feel free to insult them and attack them, both privately and publicly.  

I was like that.  But I grew old and I grew tired of fighting.  I had to accept that many of my friends and family did not agree with me.  I had to accept that it was not an insult if they said to me, "God bless you."  

I had to finally learn that being an atheist was not all that defined me.  It was not even the most important thing that defined me.  And that, again in my opinion, made me a better atheist and a better person.

Welcome to the forum Buzz. A few suggestions if I may?

Try not to describe yourself as "truly" atheist or "better" person. We get enough of that from the religious fanatics. It carries the implication that anybody who dares disagree is "untrue" and "lesser" and combines the worst of the True Scottsman fallacy with poisoning the well. It's also commonly used by raging anti-theists and I doubt that you want to be mistaken for one.

You talk a good fight when it comes to empathy but you clearly aren't spreading it around equally.

I find that entirely insulting.  If I or any other atheist can't be a "dedicated" atheist here on an atheist discussion board, where exactly are we supposed to be?  My focus on life is organized as an atheist.  Everyone who is not is, by definition, "theist".  Which means to me that they are superstitious, non-factual, and irrational.  And I consider that rational and atheistic thought actually DOES make me a "better person".  

So to be blunt about it, who is in the wrong place?  Me or you?  I am actually curious about this.  The answer seems obvious given the name of the forum, but is atheism and atheists NOT the default position here?  

I am actually very angry at reading a suggested condemnation of being "truly atheist".  But I am and have been for the 60 years of general adult life (I'm 70).  What you basically said was "don't be".

Atheism has no dogma. We don't act or believe the same. We simply don't believe in any gods. It's not the basis of our personalities, it's one aspect. There is no such thing as a good or bad atheist, there are just people who don't believe in any gods.
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#60

Praying with Patients
(05-03-2021, 06:55 AM)Cavebear Wrote: I find that entirely insulting.  If I or any other atheist can't be a "dedicated" atheist here on an atheist discussion board, where exactly are we supposed to be?  My focus on life is organized as an atheist.  Everyone who is not is, by definition, "theist".  Which means to me that they are superstitious, non-factual, and irrational.  And I consider that rational and atheistic thought actually DOES make me a "better person".  

So to be blunt about it, who is in the wrong place?  Me or you?  I am actually curious about this.  The answer seems obvious given the name of the forum, but is atheism and atheists NOT the default position here?  

I am actually very angry at reading a suggested condemnation of being "truly atheist".  But I am and have been for the 60 years of general adult life (I'm 70).  What you basically said was "don't be".

Truly atheist? Not a limp wristed casual atheist but 'I really, really don't believe in god' atheist.

Dedicated atheist? So not only do you really truly not believe in god, you actually dedicate your life to not believing in god.

Quote: My focus on life is organized as an atheist

Your approach to washing the car or making a chicken curry: how would it differ if you were a member of Opus Dei?

And btw, atheism isn't an ism. There is no ideology, atheism is the lack of one. Why do you not understand this, you being a true dedicated atheist N'all.
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#61

Praying with Patients
(05-02-2021, 10:41 PM)Paleophyte Wrote: Welcome to the forum Buzz. A few suggestions if I may...

Try not to describe yourself as "truly" atheist or "better" person...

Yes, I agree with the notion of not describing atheists as "strong", "weak"
or "true".  There are no degrees  of atheism; it's a unique descriptor, like
pregnant or dead—you can't be slightly or completely pregnant or dead.

I'm also guessing that Buzzard meant "better person" as in describing himself
before he was an atheist compared to how he is now.  He wasn't talking about
atheists in the broader sense.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#62

Praying with Patients
(05-03-2021, 06:55 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(05-02-2021, 10:41 PM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(04-27-2021, 06:44 PM)Buzzard Wrote: I am new to this forum and I don't want to offend intentionally.  But I am not new to life or to atheism.  When I say we, I am referring to my fellow atheists.  Yes, I know we are individuals and everyone's opinion and life experience is different.  And I don't necessarily think my opinion is better or even the right opinion.  But, it is my opinion and I came on to this forum to discuss it.

Now, in my opinion, atheists tend to get a bit of a superiority complex because we were skeptical, we really looked a religion with logic and clarity, we discovered the fallacy of god worshipping religions, and now  we know the truth and they don't.  So we think we can look down on those who did not discover our truth and we should feel free to insult them and attack them, both privately and publicly.  

I was like that.  But I grew old and I grew tired of fighting.  I had to accept that many of my friends and family did not agree with me.  I had to accept that it was not an insult if they said to me, "God bless you."  

I had to finally learn that being an atheist was not all that defined me.  It was not even the most important thing that defined me.  And that, again in my opinion, made me a better atheist and a better person.

Welcome to the forum Buzz. A few suggestions if I may?

Try not to describe yourself as "truly" atheist or "better" person. We get enough of that from the religious fanatics. It carries the implication that anybody who dares disagree is "untrue" and "lesser" and combines the worst of the True Scottsman fallacy with poisoning the well. It's also commonly used by raging anti-theists and I doubt that you want to be mistaken for one.

You talk a good fight when it comes to empathy but you clearly aren't spreading it around equally.

I find that entirely insulting.  If I or any other atheist can't be a "dedicated" atheist here on an atheist discussion board, where exactly are we supposed to be?  My focus on life is organized as an atheist.  Everyone who is not is, by definition, "theist".  Which means to me that they are superstitious, non-factual, and irrational.  And I consider that rational and atheistic thought actually DOES make me a "better person".  

So to be blunt about it, who is in the wrong place?  Me or you?  I am actually curious about this.  The answer seems obvious given the name of the forum, but is atheism and atheists NOT the default position here?  

I am actually very angry at reading a suggested condemnation of being "truly atheist".  But I am and have been for the 60 years of general adult life (I'm 70).  What you basically said was "don't be".

I'm sorry that you took insult. You can be a dedicated atheist to your heart's content. No problem there.

It's when you describe yourself as "truly" atheist that problems arise. By necessity it requires "untrue" atheists. Aside from the occasional rare evangelotroll posing as an atheist I don't think those terms have any meaning unless you're strolling down the unholier-than-thou lane of elitism. Either you believe or you don't and if you don't then you're an atheist. We need no grades, belts, or levels to show which of us is truer. We need no hierarchy to determine which atheists get to wear the silliest hats. 

"Better" person is even more difficult, except posssibly in comparison to your past self. Better at what? Being a person? Comparing the worth of individuals is an ethical mire that I prefer not to find on the bottoms of my shoes.
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#63

Praying with Patients
(05-04-2021, 02:59 AM)Paleophyte Wrote:
(05-03-2021, 06:55 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(05-02-2021, 10:41 PM)Paleophyte Wrote: Welcome to the forum Buzz. A few suggestions if I may?

Try not to describe yourself as "truly" atheist or "better" person. We get enough of that from the religious fanatics. It carries the implication that anybody who dares disagree is "untrue" and "lesser" and combines the worst of the True Scottsman fallacy with poisoning the well. It's also commonly used by raging anti-theists and I doubt that you want to be mistaken for one.

You talk a good fight when it comes to empathy but you clearly aren't spreading it around equally.

I find that entirely insulting.  If I or any other atheist can't be a "dedicated" atheist here on an atheist discussion board, where exactly are we supposed to be?  My focus on life is organized as an atheist.  Everyone who is not is, by definition, "theist".  Which means to me that they are superstitious, non-factual, and irrational.  And I consider that rational and atheistic thought actually DOES make me a "better person".  

So to be blunt about it, who is in the wrong place?  Me or you?  I am actually curious about this.  The answer seems obvious given the name of the forum, but is atheism and atheists NOT the default position here?  

I am actually very angry at reading a suggested condemnation of being "truly atheist".  But I am and have been for the 60 years of general adult life (I'm 70).  What you basically said was "don't be".

I'm sorry that you took insult. You can be a dedicated atheist to your heart's content. No problem there.

It's when you describe yourself as "truly" atheist that problems arise. By necessity it requires "untrue" atheists. Aside from the occasional rare evangelotroll posing as an atheist I don't think those terms have any meaning unless you're strolling down the unholier-than-thou lane of elitism. Either you believe or you don't and if you don't then you're an atheist. We need no grades, belts, or levels to show which of us is truer. We need no hierarchy to determine which atheists get to wear the silliest hats. 

"Better" person is even more difficult, except posssibly in comparison to your past self. Better at what? Being a person? Comparing the worth of individuals is an ethical mire that I prefer not to find on the bottoms of my shoes.

I understand the difficulties with degrees of atheism. I used to argue about that elsewhere and in the past because some people thought they were "atheist" just because they didn't regulary go to church. Some thought they were "atheist" just because they doubted their specific religion. I've tried to stop doing THAT because there was no purpose and no benefit. Sure, it crops up again in my posts from time to time, but I try to edit it out. I can fail...

And there were the years of definitions. What exactly is an atheist? Do you have to hate "God" or just not consider one to exist? Do you have to be active about it or is passive dismissal sufficient? I tend to be on the active and strong side myself, but that isn't for everyone. But over the decades, I have questioned others about what they mean when they say they are "atheist", because they used phrases that suggested they were actually "deist" or "God created the Universe and left". Which is fine for them and they have a right to their understanding of deities existing or not.

I have my understanding of "atheist". Others are free to have their own.

But I'm right, of course. Big Grin
Atheist born and when I die, still an atheist...
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#64

Praying with Patients
Misunderstandings happen when we use common words in uncommon ways.
Freedom isn't free.
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#65

Praying with Patients
(05-04-2021, 02:59 AM)Paleophyte Wrote: It's when you [Cavebear] describe yourself as "truly" atheist that problems arise.

Agreed. You're either an atheist, or you're not.  The "truly" adverb as a modifier is unwarranted.     Dodgy

Quote:We need no grades, belts, or levels to show which of us is truer. We need no hierarchy to determine which atheists get to wear the silliest hats.
 
Again; agreed.

And it's why I argue against Dawkins' seven degrees of atheism.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#66

Praying with Patients
(05-04-2021, 03:43 AM)Cavebear Wrote: And there were the years of definitions.  What exactly is an atheist?  Do you have to hate "God" or just not consider one to exist?  Do you have to be active about it or is passive dismissal sufficient?

Mate... you're overthinking this whole atheist "definition" thing.  There is only one single definition
of the word—in exactly the same way as there's only a single definition of the word theist. And no;
you don't have to "hate" gods to be an atheist, and you don't even have to "dismiss" the notion.
I'm actually an ignostic, as per:—  

The philosophical position that the question of the existence of God or (gods)
is meaningless, because the term "God" has no coherent and unambiguous
definition. It may also be described as the theological position that other
theological positions assume too much about the concept of God.  Also, the
concept of "God" is both unfalsifiable and unverifiable—some people call all
this "theological noncognitivism".

I also don't accept the terms "Strong Atheist", "Weak Atheist", "De-facto Atheist" or any other modifier.

Quote:I tend to be on the active and strong side myself, but that isn't for everyone.

I don't even understand what this means.  Can you please define what you mean by the terms "active"
and "strong" as they apply to your own atheism.

Quote:I have my understanding of "atheist".  Others are free to have their own.

Can you also define precisely what the term atheist means to you?  It's a bit unclear to me.

(And I know this is a bit off-topic, but it seems like a viable short-term digression.)     Blush
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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