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Praying with Patients
#26

Praying with Patients
I'm reminded of a passage from a recent article on the student free speech case pending before the court:

Quote:LoMonte said it is the relatively low stakes of student speech cases — the silly sign, a band concert, suspension from the cheerleading squad — that brings the possibility that judges and the public will trivialize them.

But he analogizes it to a police officer handing out $5 tickets to people wearing T-shirts with political statements the government doesn’t like.

“No federal judge in America would say, ‘Suck it up and pay the ticket,’ ” LoMonte said. “Even a very small amount of government punishment that is meant to deter you from speaking is enough to violate the First Amendment, and judges understand that very well every place other than schools.”

Praying with patients may be a small thing, but it is the totality of these small things which form religious privilege in our society and leave others out in the cold.
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#27

Praying with Patients
I wonder if a Muslim would feel comfortable even asking medical personnel to pray with them. And if they did ask, how accommodating the medical staff would be.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#28

Praying with Patients
I should have asked for Aton LaVey. Even better that he's dead...
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#29

Praying with Patients
On the flipside, last week I was accosted by a customer who'd noticed my limp and asked me if we could pray together. I answered, "I'm not a believer, so no thanks. I'd be uncomfortable with that. I appreciate the thought." We chatted for a couple of more minutes and it was cool. (I confess being tempted to answer that it was her god who presumably gave me my incurable bone disorder, so I wasn't sure what use praying would be -- but I was at work and on my good behavior, so no.)

I think if I were a worker in a hospital tending to a dying patient, I might answer differently ... but I might simply summon the hospital's chaplain for that duty. It is, after all, his job.

(04-26-2021, 09:46 PM)Vera Wrote: I wonder if a Muslim would feel comfortable even asking medical personnel to pray with them. And if they did ask, how accommodating the medical staff would be.

That might could be dangerous, depending on where in the country one is, and the staff treating you.
Freedom isn't free.
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#30

Praying with Patients
(04-26-2021, 06:26 PM)Dom Wrote: There is no point in blaming an old person at death's door for the way their world has shaped them. Zero point to it.

Um, the OP said it was a routine procedure....not that the person was at "death's door."  Fucking jesusism is nothing but a death cult.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#31

Praying with Patients
I have been beat to hell from a motorcycle accident, in the hospital and hurting.  I may be a long time atheist, but if the pope himself had taken my hand and offered his caring, I would have taken it gladly.  And it would not have changed my belief a bit.  

People need to reach out to people in need.  I have been all the way through this journey from being born a Baptist through doubt, through strident atheism to where I am today.  I really don't care what you or anyone else believes.

Just don't ever assume that I will permit anyone or any nation to attack me or mine using their religion as an excuse.  I won't even let a fellow atheist get away with that.
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#32

Praying with Patients
A couple of years ago I spent a night in the hospital "for observation" they said..... (I thought it was because Medicare was paying for it, but, whatever.)  Anyway, they got me all trussed up in some silly device that squeezed your legs every 30 seconds or so  and plopped me flat on my back which I find an uncomfortable position at the best of times.

Anyway, a young, very hip, black nurse came in with the ubiquitous clipboard and asked a few questions.  She asked me if I was comfortable and I quipped "is anyone ever comfortable in this contraption?"  She laughed and then said "would you like to speak to a spiritual counselor?"  I said "absolutely not."  She wrote that down.  Then she asked what my religious beliefs were.  I said "none."  Again, she smiled and wrote it down.  She was no problem.


Two days later I get an email at home from the hospital (which was not any sort of religious affiliated bullshit) asking a bunch of questions about my "stay."  Like it was a fucking hotel or something.  Most of the questions were mundane but then towards the end they asked "Have we met your spiritual needs?"   YES         NO.

Since there was no third choice I checked NO.

A day later I get an email from some supervisor expressing that they were greatly distressed that they had failed to meet my "spiritual needs."

I replied by saying "I don't have any spiritual needs.  If you are going to ask a silly question like that you might provide a third choice for people who have no use for primitive superstitions."

That was the end of the conversation.

But it is representative of why I can't stand these sanctimonious religitard morons.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#33

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 02:23 AM)Minimalist Wrote: A couple of years ago I spent a night in the hospital "for observation" they said..... (I thought it was because Medicare was paying for it, but, whatever.)  Anyway, they got me all trussed up in some silly device that squeezed your legs every 30 seconds or so  and plopped me flat on my back which I find an uncomfortable position at the best of times.

Anyway, a young, very hip, black nurse came in with the ubiquitous clipboard and asked a few questions.  She asked me if I was comfortable and I quipped "is anyone ever comfortable in this contraption?"  She laughed and then said "would you like to speak to a spiritual counselor?"  I said "absolutely not."  She wrote that down.  Then she asked what my religious beliefs were.  I said "none."  Again, she smiled and wrote it down.  She was no problem.


Two days later I get an email at home from the hospital (which was not any sort of religious affiliated bullshit) asking a bunch of questions about my "stay."  Like it was a fucking hotel or something.  Most of the questions were mundane but then towards the end they asked "Have we met your spiritual needs?"   YES         NO.

Since there was no third choice I checked NO.

A day later I get an email from some supervisor expressing that they were greatly distressed that they had failed to meet my "spiritual needs."

I replied by saying "I don't have any spiritual needs.  If you are going to ask a silly question like that you might provide a third choice for people who have no use for primitive superstitions."

That was the end of the conversation.

But it is representative of why I can't stand these sanctimonious religitard morons.

Well, that's a very different story from nursey's.

I believe in showing compassion. If you have enough empathy to look past your own nose and put yourself in their shoes - and I don't mean assuming even when you are them you are still you - THEIR shoes, you can understand them and show compassion.

Ill people are needy. They are worried. Whatever provides them with their dopamine, it's what they need. You can give it or not. This is about charity, not your attitude about religion.

It went the opposite way when my mom was in the hospital. She did NOT want her last rights, and I had to keep the catholic priest from entering her hospital room, physically by blocking his way.  For my mom, peace was not having to deal with him. For the lady in Nursey's story, peace was prayer. Empathy is giving a sick person what they need.
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#34

Praying with Patients
Quote: Well, that's a very different story from nursey's.


Agreed, but then I am not in the medical profession.


And your last comment is indicative of these people always trying to stick their noses in where it is not wanted. 


You reminded me of this quote.

Quote:Orthodox Christians have the habit of claiming all great men, all men who have held important positions, men of reputation, men of wealth. As soon as the funeral is over clergymen begin to relate imaginary conversations with the deceased, and in a very little while the great man is changed to a Christian --possibly to a saint.

--Robert Green Ingersoll
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#35

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 02:23 AM)Minimalist Wrote: But it is representative of why I can't stand these sanctimonious religitard morons.

The assumption that religion is there is annoying. When I first joined the Air Force, they didn't have an "atheist" option for your dogtags, so I had to choose "no preference". Two years later, when they added "atheist" to the options, I had a new set stamped.
Freedom isn't free.
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#36

Praying with Patients
Ok, I went through this thread much more carefully this time and I have to ask - when exactly did we decide that this is an old person at death's door? Because I didn't see anything like this at all in Nursey's original post.

An old, possibly lonely person who's dying and wants some comfort (not demands it like it's owed them) is one thing and yes, the compassionate thing would be to give them whatever comfort one is capable of giving. Someone who is there for a *routine* procedure and who, for all we know from Nursey's post, may be as young as she is? How about we give all the high horses in this thread some oats and let them rest a bit?

And yes, the fact that only Christians would even think of doing something like this is a pertinent point.

Oh, an people who are saying "I would this" and "I wouldn't that", OP is someone to whom this can be a regular occurence, not something that happens once or twice in their lifetime, usually with a loved one. She spends her days surrounded by and helping the sick and the suffering; providing "spiritual" comfort on top of all her emotionally draining work, and comfort that's forced out of her at that, *is* more than she signed up for. What if every third person coming for a procedure demands that nurses and doctors pray with them? Does she still have to do it, in order to qualify as an "empathetic" person? Every second person? Everyone? When exactly does *she* start being imposed upon?
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#37

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 01:39 AM)Buzzard Wrote: I have been beat to hell from a motorcycle accident, in the hospital and hurting.  I may be a long time atheist, but if the pope himself had taken my hand and offered his caring, I would have taken it gladly.  And it would not have changed my belief a bit.  

People need to reach out to people in need.  I have been all the way through this journey from being born a Baptist through doubt, through strident atheism to where I am today.  I really don't care what you or anyone else believes.

Just don't ever assume that I will permit anyone or any nation to attack me or mine using their religion as an excuse.  I won't even let a fellow atheist get away with that.
When I get a new doctor and they review my chart the most common comment is "How are you still alive." I respond "Cthulhu put me on Earth for a reason."
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#38

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 10:28 AM)Vera Wrote: Ok, I went through this thread much more carefully this time and I have to ask - when exactly did we decide that this is an old person at death's door? Because I didn't see anything like this at all in Nursey's original post.

An old, possibly lonely person who's dying and wants some comfort (not demands it like it's owed them) is one thing and yes, the compassionate thing would be to give them whatever comfort one is capable of giving. Someone who is there for a *routine* procedure and who, for all we know from Nursey's post, may be as young as she is? How about we give all the high horses in this thread some oats and let them rest a bit?

And yes, the fact that only Christians would even think of doing something like this is a pertinent point.

Oh, an people who are saying "I would this" and "I wouldn't that", OP is someone to whom this can be a regular occurence, not something that happens once or twice in their lifetime, usually with a loved one. She spends her days surrounded by and helping the sick and the suffering; providing "spiritual" comfort on top of all her emotionally draining work, and comfort that's forced out of her at that, *is* more than she signed up for. What if every third person coming for a procedure demands that nurses and doctors pray with them? Does she still have to do it, in order to qualify as an "empathetic" person? Every second person? Everyone? When exactly does *she* start being imposed upon?

Empathy is not something that is rationed out.  Empathy just is there for us.

I don't have enough time to waste trying to decide who is "worthy" of my empathy and care based on the rules established, not by me, but by the churches.  One of the joys of being truly atheistic is that I no longer give a damn about anyone's religion.  This opens up a world of people can  call "friend."
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#39

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 12:40 PM)Buzzard Wrote: Empathy is not something that is rationed out.  Empathy just is there for us.

I don't have enough time to waste trying to decide who is "worthy" of my empathy and care based on the rules established, not by me, but by the churches.  One of the joys of being truly atheistic is that I no longer give a damn about anyone's religion.  This opens up a world of people can  call "friend."

Careful you don't break something if you should happen to fall off that horse.

I'm not even going to post a link about compassion fatigue - armchair experts rarely care about nuance anyway.


Funnily enough, this seems to be all about YOU and how empathetic YOU are (whether you're actually asked to act upon this boundless empathy and friendship for all on a daily basis or not) and not about what OP is actually *living* and struggling with.

But hey, whatever makes us feel superior to others, eh Deadpan Coffee Drinker
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#40

Praying with Patients
(03-31-2021, 02:13 PM)Cavebear Wrote: ...Well, what you have done with the 2 minutes otherwise, I guess?

Maybe prep another patient who was actually near death?  This patient—contrary to what
some have assumed—wasn't dying.  She was about to undergo surgery for colon cancer.  

Quote:On the other hand, if that was that person's last few minutes, I would lie like hell and fake it sincerely as possible... There is no point in trying to explain reality to a dying person...

Except, in this instance, it was not the patient's "last few minutes".

And we need to bear in mind that this is also part of Nursey's post:

"She was pissed the doctor didn’t stay to pray with her, he walked out before she got
the chance to ask... She tried to demand he come back in to pray, then she stuck her
hands out and had me and the other nurse hold them while she prayed out loud."

So... a completely self-centred patient; effectively wasting the time of two critical care
nurses; importunately expecting them to treat her like unpaid servants; and to top it off,
unreasonably angry at the staff for no real reason other than her petulance.

I would've firmly but politely declined to pray, but also confirming to her that I'd be
thinking of her in theatre, and wishing her all the best for a successful surgery.  I'd also
let her know I'd catch up with her on my next shift.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#41

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 12:51 PM)Vera Wrote:
(04-27-2021, 12:40 PM)Buzzard Wrote: Empathy is not something that is rationed out.  Empathy just is there for us.

I don't have enough time to waste trying to decide who is "worthy" of my empathy and care based on the rules established, not by me, but by the churches.  One of the joys of being truly atheistic is that I no longer give a damn about anyone's religion.  This opens up a world of people can  call "friend."

Careful you don't break something if you should happen to fall off that horse.

I'm not even going to post a link about compassion fatigue - armchair experts rarely care about nuance anyway.


Funnily enough, this seems to be all about YOU and how empathetic YOU are (whether you're actually asked to act upon this boundless empathy and friendship for all on a daily basis or not) and not about what OP is actually *living* and struggling with.

But hey, whatever makes us feel superior to others, eh Deadpan Coffee Drinker

He's telling how he feels about the situation, just like all of us have done here. 

Having been a care taker 24/7 for a couple of years, I understand compassion fatigue, and the possibility of growing numb. I understand it very well. Nursey hasn't become numb by a long shot, from her thoughts.

Mentioned elsewhere above, oh yes, Christians do feel obligated to pull others into their belief system, it's in their doctrine. And, they are so numerous in the US, that they assume everyone is like them - because everyone they know, is.

But, the thread is not about the failures of religion, it's about empathy.

I should likely stay away from threads about empathy because I have realized long ago that my empathic feelings are not normal. I literally feel the pain or needs of others, both humans and other animals. I feel the pain, literally, and I can get very, very angry when that pain is purposefully inflicted by other humans. It's not normal, and it's not fun to live with. It is likely part of why I am an extreme introvert and stay away from people as best I can.

So, I should stay out of threads about empathy as well.

Regarding the religious theme here, in my eyes a lot has to do with the age of the person. For the old, religion has become the crutch they have grown to need to deal with the adversity old age invariably brings. When you experience the loss of your peers as well as your physical capabilities, a crutch may be all you have left to lean on.

I feel differently about the younger generations, that is where change needs to come from, that is who shapes and rules the world. That is who needs to be confronted. 

As for the sick woman in the story, she suffers from the erroneous belief that her god is giving her strength, but her need to reach out to others to support her prayer shows that she actually derives her courage to face things from the kindness of other humans. She may need to be confronted with this, but a hospital bed is not the time or place.  

And now I should bow out of this conversation, I am fully aware that I stand alone in the way I feel about these things.
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#42

Praying with Patients
With all due respect, Dom, and I can’t imagine what you must have gone through with your husband and I truly sympathise, claiming that you’re more empathetic than others is a bit… well, let’s just say that none of us actually knows what goes on in other people heads and, for lack of a better word, hearts. Yes, some people are more empathetic than others, some are totally devoid of empathy, but you really have *no* way of truly knowing how empathetic someone is (unless they’re a psychopath I guess), you’ll just be guessing. And yes, it’s a real, perfectly natural phenomenon, where we assume we’re more, in whatever the characteristic is, than other people – smarter, better people, more compassionate, or even just better drivers. It’s only natural, after all, we do know ourselves much much better than anyone else.

I’m not even saying you’re not more empathetic than most other people. I have no way of knowing this. But you know what – neither do you, not really.

Also, assuming how Nursey actually feels is a bit presumptuous. None of us knows what she goes through on a daily basis and how she feels about it. Which is why, this thread being turned into a black-and-white superiority-measuring contest is even more grating than when the exact same thing happens in shooting threads, for example, where people are using the very real tragedy of very real people to prove which one is the most progressive, the most knowledgeable or simply the better person.

This is not a black-and-white issue, where the answer is “empathy is boundless”, “we should do whatever is asked of us” (even though those who keep saying this are probably not asked to do it on a regular basis and with strangers).

Oh, and bonus points for the claim (not by you) of being a better (or truer) atheist than us. Nice passive-aggressive/superiority combo right there.

In a thread like this such posturing is particularly distasteful.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#43

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 02:02 PM)Vera Wrote: With all due respect, Dom, and I can’t imagine what you must have gone through with your husband and I truly sympathise, claiming that you’re more empathetic than others is a bit… well, let’s just say that none of us actually knows what goes on in other people heads and, for lack of a better word, hearts. Yes, some people are more empathetic than others, some are totally devoid of empathy, but you really have *no* way of truly knowing how empathetic someone is (unless they’re a psychopath I guess), you’ll just be guessing. And yes, it’s a real, perfectly natural phenomenon, where we assume we’re more, in whatever the characteristic is, than other people – smarter, better people, more compassionate, or even just better drivers. It’s only natural, after all, we do know ourselves much much better than anyone else.

I’m not even saying you’re not more empathetic than most other people. I have no way of knowing this. But you know what – neither do you, not really.

Also, assuming how Nursey actually feels is a bit presumptuous. None of us knows what she goes through on a daily basis and how she feels about it. Which is why, this thread being turned into a black-and-white superiority-measuring contest is even more grating than when the exact same thing happens in shooting threads, for example, where people are using the very real tragedy of very real people to prove which one is the most progressive, the most knowledgeable or simply the better person.

This is not a black-and-white issue, where the answer is “empathy is boundless”, “we should do whatever is asked of us” (even though those who keep saying this are probably not asked to do it on a regular basis and with strangers).

Oh, and bonus points for the claim (not by you) of being a better (or truer) atheist than us. Nice passive-aggressive/superiority combo right there.

In a thread like this such posturing is particularly distasteful.

"We should do whatever is asked of us" is putting words into my mouth that I would never utter.

Yes, empathy, like all chemically induced "feelings", varies from person to person. Mine dominates my thinking and feeling entirely if I let it, and it causes me continued pain and anger. To the point where I avoid human contact.  I don't see others reacting in that way, so I don't think it's within the norm.
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#44

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 02:07 PM)Dom Wrote: "We should do whatever is asked of us" is putting words into my mouth that I would never utter.

Which is why at one point I made sure to point out that I didn't mean only you, or you at all (like with the "empathy is boundless" crap). I should maybe have tried parsing my reply better but I also didn't want to do a point-by-point dissection of everyone's replies as it was the general, overly simplified trend several responses had taken that left me with a really bitter taste in my mouth.


Quote:Yes, empathy, like all chemically induced "feelings", varies from person to person. Mine dominates my thinking and feeling entirely if I let it, and it causes me continued pain and anger. To the point where I avoid human contact.  I don't see others reacting in that way, so I don't think it's within the norm.

The thing is, there's billions of people under the sun and you, just like everyone else, have met a minuscule percentage of them (even if it's a big number compared to other people, who've lived a more isolated life). And even then, you (or I, or anyone else) really have no idea how someone actually feels within and how affected they are by the suffering of others, or by anything, really. People handle emotions differently and show their reactions differently. And that was my whole point - someone may seem like the calmest, most zen person whom nothing affects too strongly... and yet be all but shattered inside. We really can't know and I think it's better not to presume that we feel things more strongly than others, just because they're not showing it/are processing it differently from us. We can only know the extent of our own pain, not that of others.

As someone with OCD (with an emphasis on the O and not the C) and not utterly devoid of empathy, I know only too well the feeling of trying to avoid human (and even animal) contact because of the pain (and sometimes anger). I cried uncontrollably for half an hour by the side of the road the other day because of something I saw, before I was even able to think about biking back home, so believe me, I do know the feeling (coupled with some guilt too, as this is part of OCD as well, or just part of who I am). I'm just saying that I'm sure there are a lot more people who are like this.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#45

Praying with Patients
I am new to this forum and I don't want to offend intentionally.  But I am not new to life or to atheism.  When I say we, I am referring to my fellow atheists.  Yes, I know we are individuals and everyone's opinion and life experience is different.  And I don't necessarily think my opinion is better or even the right opinion.  But, it is my opinion and I came on to this forum to discuss it.

Now, in my opinion, atheists tend to get a bit of a superiority complex because we were skeptical, we really looked a religion with logic and clarity, we discovered the fallacy of god worshipping religions, and now  we know the truth and they don't.  So we think we can look down on those who did not discover our truth and we should feel free to insult them and attack them, both privately and publicly.  

I was like that.  But I grew old and I grew tired of fighting.  I had to accept that many of my friends and family did not agree with me.  I had to accept that it was not an insult if they said to me, "God bless you."  

I had to finally learn that being an atheist was not all that defined me.  It was not even the most important thing that defined me.  And that, again in my opinion, made me a better atheist and a better person.
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#46

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 12:40 PM)Buzzard Wrote: Empathy is not something that is rationed out.  Empathy just is there for us.

Just is there for us‽
For us to grab like help yourself ice cream?
Apart from the odd aberration we all possess empathy to some degree. Some people have it by the shed load and they show it by undergoing years of intense study and training then dedicate their entire working lives in order to improve the lives of others. And they get paid fuckall for doing it, just millions of daft cunts clapping hands and bashing pans. Coronavirus: Woman 'named and shamed' by neighbours on Facebook for not joining clap for carers

These people really don't appreciate having their time wasted, if you need help with your passage to the beyond then talk to the hospital chaplain

Quote:I don't have enough time to waste trying to decide who is "worthy" of my empathy and care based on the rules established, not by me, but by the churches...

This is the second time you've emphasised the role the church plays in this but you have yet to elaborate, now is your chance.

Edit:
(04-27-2021, 06:44 PM)Buzzard Wrote: ...Now, in my opinion, atheists tend to get a bit of a superiority complex because we were skeptical, we really looked a religion with logic and clarity, we discovered the fallacy of god worshipping religions, and now  we know the truth and they don't...

Now we're getting there. Start a new thread.
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#47

Praying with Patients
I'm still fighting with hundreds of redneck hillbilly kluxxer fundamentalist asshole, collectively referred to as "the cousins". But I'm only 70, I'll mellow in time, no doubt.
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#48

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 06:17 PM)Vera Wrote:
(04-27-2021, 02:07 PM)Dom Wrote: "We should do whatever is asked of us" is putting words into my mouth that I would never utter.

Which is why at one point I made sure to point out that I didn't mean only you, or you at all (like with the "empathy is boundless" crap). I should maybe have tried parsing my reply better but I also didn't want to do a point-by-point dissection of everyone's replies as it was the general, overly simplified trend several responses had taken that left me with a really bitter taste in my mouth.


Quote:Yes, empathy, like all chemically induced "feelings", varies from person to person. Mine dominates my thinking and feeling entirely if I let it, and it causes me continued pain and anger. To the point where I avoid human contact.  I don't see others reacting in that way, so I don't think it's within the norm.

The thing is, there's billions of people under the sun and you, just like everyone else, have met a minuscule percentage of them (even if it's a big number compared to other people, who've lived a more isolated life). And even then, you (or I, or anyone else) really have no idea how someone actually feels within and how affected they are by the suffering of others, or by anything, really. People handle emotions differently and show their reactions differently. And that was my whole point - someone may seem like the calmest, most zen person whom nothing affects too strongly... and yet be all but shattered inside. We really can't know and I think it's better not to presume that we feel things more strongly than others, just because they're not showing it/are processing it differently from us. We can only know the extent of our own pain, not that of others.

As someone with OCD (with an emphasis on the O and not the C) and not utterly devoid of empathy, I know only too well the feeling of trying to avoid human (and even animal) contact because of the pain (and sometimes anger). I cried uncontrollably for half an hour by the side of the road the other day because of something I saw, before I was even able to think about biking back home, so believe me, I do know the feeling (coupled with some guilt too, as this is part of OCD as well, or just part of who I am). I'm just saying that I'm sure there are a lot more people who are like this.

The norm of humankind may differ wildly from the norm around you. And it's not only that people handle and show emotions differently, genetically we are endowed with different amounts of each (evolution at work there). 

Yes, there may be people all over the globe with the same volume and degree of a particular emotion, but they are not where I am. If they were, they would interbreed and it would be the norm where I am.

Evolution always tries to adjust every life form to thrive under particular conditions, and it experiments with us, probing changes this way and that. Our internal chemistry, which drives our emotions, is a part of that experiment.
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#49

Praying with Patients
(04-27-2021, 06:44 PM)Buzzard Wrote: I am new to this forum and I don't want to offend intentionally.

Please don't think you've offended anyone mate.  We all have our personal beliefs that
make us—each of us—who and what we are.  And we all make the world go around.       Sun

Quote:Now, in my opinion, atheists tend to get a bit of a superiority complex because we were skeptical, we really looked at religion with logic and clarity, we discovered the fallacy of god worshipping religions, and now  we know the truth and they don't.  So we think we can look down on those who did not discover our truth and we should feel free to insult them and attack them, both privately and publicly.
 
I'd have to disagree with these opinions about atheists—specifically from my standpoint.  
As an atheist for 60 years, I too have always been a skeptical enquirer, and obviously saw
all religions—the belief in supernatural entities—as ludicrous all those years ago.  But... I
have never disparaged people personally and/or individually for their religiosity.  It's not
my place; it's patronising, condescending, and an insult to their intelligence.   At any rate,
there are myriad theists the world over who are far more intelligent than me, who've given
to our society far more than I could ever hope to.

Quote:I was like that.  But I grew old and I grew tired of fighting...

Fighting?  I've never fought with a theist in my life.  I've listened to their points of view, and
let them know mine, and we've had many a friendly and often impassioned dialogue over the
years.  I've never tried to "deconvert" anybody from their religiosity—it's a pointless exercise
in futility, just as it is for them to attempt to convert me (which almost none have ever tried).

Engagement is the name of the game.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#50

Praying with Patients
(04-28-2021, 12:49 AM)SYZ Wrote:
(04-27-2021, 06:44 PM)Buzzard Wrote: I am new to this forum and I don't want to offend intentionally.

Please don't think you've offended anyone mate.  We all have our personal beliefs that
make us—each of us—who and what we are.  And we all make the world go around.       Sun

Quote:Now, in my opinion, atheists tend to get a bit of a superiority complex because we were skeptical, we really looked at religion with logic and clarity, we discovered the fallacy of god worshipping religions, and now  we know the truth and they don't.  So we think we can look down on those who did not discover our truth and we should feel free to insult them and attack them, both privately and publicly.
 
I'd have to disagree with these opinions about atheists—specifically from my standpoint.  
As an atheist for 60 years, I too have always been a skeptical enquirer, and obviously saw
all religions—the belief in supernatural entities—as ludicrous all those years ago.  But... I
have never disparaged people personally and/or individually for their religiosity.  It's not
my place; it's patronising, condescending, and an insult to their intelligence.   At any rate,
there are myriad theists the world over who are far more intelligent than me, who've given
to our society far more than I could ever hope to.

Quote:I was like that.  But I grew old and I grew tired of fighting...

Fighting?  I've never fought with a theist in my life.  I've listened to their points of view, and
let them know mine, and we've had many a friendly and often impassioned dialogue over the
years.  I've never tried to "deconvert" anybody from their religiosity—it's a pointless exercise
in futility, just as it is for them to attempt to convert me (which almost none have ever tried).

Engagement is the name of the game.

Most (not all) of the religious Christians in the US are fanatics. You can't have a conversation about religion with them, they are aghast when you say you don't have one.
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