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Crucifixion argument....
#26

Crucifixion argument....
If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would
be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses.

—Lenny Bruce, 1965.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#27

Crucifixion argument....
(03-29-2021, 04:34 PM)SYZ Wrote: If Jesus had been killed twenty years ago, Catholic school children would
be wearing little electric chairs around their necks instead of crosses.

—Lenny Bruce, 1965.

[Image: b6f11d1744f3869864bb51053e22dfbd.jpg]

Even funnier.....


[Image: DZgcQkRWkAAt7v1.jpg]

And he wouldn't have a crown of thorns on his head, he'd have a wet sponge.  

[Image: 102004.jpg]
                                                         T4618
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#28

Crucifixion argument....
Anybody remember "Lethal Weapon X", where our hero was getting an electric sponge bath?
  [Image: attachment.php?aid=31] Dog  
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#29

Crucifixion argument....
(03-27-2021, 09:30 PM)Vera Wrote: I'm just always stunned and sickened by our inventiveness in imagining and creating so many different ways in which to inflict pain, mutilate and murder each other.

I took a Criminal Justice class in university. We learned a bit about various forms of torture and execute and I had that exact same thought.
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#30

Crucifixion argument....
(03-29-2021, 06:24 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Anybody remember "Lethal Weapon X", where our hero was getting an electric sponge bath?

No.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#31

Crucifixion argument....
(03-31-2021, 12:51 AM)RobbyPants Wrote: I took a Criminal Justice class in university. We learned a bit about various forms of torture and execute and I had that exact same thought.

I've had to look up different torture devices for several of my books (which constitute mental torture in and of themselves)... I thought I couldn't possibly feel a deeper despair about humanity after reading about people pouring molten metal in... well, pretty much every orifice you could think of*...

... and then came upon an article about a woman who put her own baby into the microwave and killed it. While this woman was most likely profoundly mentally disturbed, I'm afraid one of my first thoughts was that there are certain to be people (and probably kids) who've tried this with animals. And frankly, if we're capable of this (and torture in general)... I think there's something deeply and incorrigibly wrong with us, at the most fundamental level and I fear we can never out-evolve it...

I was going to say that yes, we are capable of amazing compassion too...

... and then made the mistake of googling the name from aractus' latest crant (that's cunt+rant) and ended up reading about someone (an ex-soldier and I don't think it's possible for me to have been less surprised at that part) who was pissing on a woman (among other things) while she lay dying... and while others watched.

And now I'm back to abject despair. As someone said in a story I listened to recently: "The world is a cruel place made crueler still by man."



(*a quick google because I wanted to check something seems to reveal that it's been in an episode of a crappy albeit popular TV show and now I'm not sure what I find more repugnant - torturing your "enemies" in order to achieve something... or enjoying the spectacle, even if it's just pretend, while stuffing your face with chips and pork rinds and belching from all the Coke.)
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#32

Crucifixion argument....
I sometimes think it is possible to judge our humane advancement by how we struggle to execute some criminals with least pain. Sure beats baking them alive in ovens or tortured to death or hanging them upside down until the blood pressure kills (and there were worse).

Perhaps we are moving to actually NOT executing people at all. That might be a non brazened foot/step forward. Sometimes, the best courts get it wrong.
Atheist born and when I die, still an atheist... Being of sound mind and body now, I intend and expect to to die an atheist.
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#33

Crucifixion argument....
(03-31-2021, 01:05 PM)Vera Wrote:
(03-31-2021, 12:51 AM)RobbyPants Wrote: I took a Criminal Justice class in university. We learned a bit about various forms of torture and execute and I had that exact same thought.

I've had to look up different torture devices for several of my books (which constitute mental torture in and of themselves)... I thought I couldn't possibly feel a deeper despair about humanity after reading about people pouring molten metal in... well, pretty much every orifice you could think of*...

... and then came upon an article about a woman who put her own baby into the microwave and killed it. While this woman was most likely profoundly mentally disturbed, I'm afraid one of my first thoughts was that there are certain to be people (and probably kids) who've tried this with animals. And frankly, if we're capable of this (and torture in general)... I think there's something deeply and incorrigibly wrong with us, at the most fundamental level and I fear we can never out-evolve it...

I was going to say that yes, we are capable of amazing compassion too...

... and then made the mistake of googling the name from aractus' latest crant (that's cunt+rant) and ended up reading about someone (an ex-soldier and I don't think it's possible for me to have been less surprised at that part) who was pissing on a woman (among other things) while she lay dying... and while others watched.

And now I'm back to abject despair. As someone said in a story I listened to recently: "The world is a cruel place made crueler still by man."



(*a quick google because I wanted to check something seems to reveal that it's been in an episode of a crappy albeit popular TV show and now I'm not sure what I find more repugnant - torturing your "enemies" in order to achieve something... or enjoying the spectacle, even if it's just pretend, while stuffing your face with chips and pork rinds and belching from all the Coke.)

There was an interesting book called "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" by Steven Pinker, in which he looks at the numbers throughout history and compares it to the population of the world in which the wars and violence took place and finds that violence has actually declined.  I guess it's per capita. I haven't read the book but this was the gist of it.  So apparently what he's saying is that for instance in 150 BCE or during the Mongal wars in China or whatever the time period is, the mass genocide was lower compared to the population even in comparison to WW I and II.  Hard to believe but that's what he's saying.   He's not saying that people are any nicer than they were just that we kill less people.  

I posted some information in the other thread about the mass extintion of the American Indigenous people and included a graph.  In 108 years 55 million Indigenous people died of disease or were slaughtered.  In 400 years almost 100 million American Indians died at the hands of us white folks. 

I have a full blooded Canadian Indian sister-in-law so I guess I think about this genocide more than most Americans.  I'm living on their land which was stolen from them.  One of my  ancesters came to the US in 1680 after the Great London Fire took land from them to farm.   My sister-in-law was given the white name  "Nancy"  and forced to attend the Catholic church and forget about her Indian traditions and language, so wiping out the Indians and forcing them to convert to our white ways continued into the 1950's.   It's all pretty sad.
                                                         T4618
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#34

Crucifixion argument....
(03-31-2021, 01:05 PM)Vera Wrote: I've had to look up different torture devices for several of my books (which constitute mental torture in and of themselves)... I thought I couldn't possibly feel a deeper despair about humanity after reading about people pouring molten metal in... well, pretty much every orifice you could think of*...

Do not click this. The Boats
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#35

Crucifixion argument....
Quote:Generally the legs were broken to hasten along the deaths.


Which is the exact opposite of what crucifixion was intended to do.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#36

Crucifixion argument....
(03-31-2021, 03:35 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: There was an interesting book called "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined" by Steven Pinker, in which he looks at the numbers throughout history and compares it to the population of the world in which the wars and violence took place and finds that violence has actually declined.  I guess it's per capita. I haven't read the book but this was the gist of it.  So apparently what he's saying is that for instance in 150 BCE or during the Mongal wars in China or whatever the time period is, the mass genocide was lower compared to the population even in comparison to WW I and II.  Hard to believe but that's what he's saying.   He's not saying that people are any nicer than they were just that we kill less people.

I’ve read some of Pinker’s book but… it’s a dragging read, plus his figures and methods have been criticized (plus, I’m finding it harder and harder to take him seriously but that's another matter).

But regardless of that, I do believe that we’re living in… well, let’s call them more civilised times, the quality of life is obviously much better than ever before. I just don’t think this is certain to hold. Like I opined in another thread, the veneer of civilisation is really thin and we might very well be one catastrophe away from losing it and reverting to who we’ve been all along – driven by instincts and urges, not all of them even bad, but instincts nonetheless.


 
Quote:I posted some information in the other thread about the mass extintion of the American Indigenous people and included a graph.  In 108 years 55 million Indigenous people died of disease or were slaughtered.  In 400 years almost 100 million American Indians died at the hands of us white folks. 

I have a full blooded Canadian Indian sister-in-law so I guess I think about this genocide more than most Americans.  I'm living on their land which was stolen from them.  One of my  ancesters came to the US in 1680 after the Great London Fire took land from them to farm.   My sister-in-law was given the white name  "Nancy"  and forced to attend the Catholic church and forget about her Indian traditions and language, so wiping out the Indians and forcing them to convert to our white ways continued into the 1950's.   It's all pretty sad.

And yet, pioneers are to this day often portrayed as these brave heroes who came and conquered the inhospitable West, like it was this amazing feat… and not stealing a whole continent, in a manner of speaking and yes, exterminating the local population.

When I lived in Patagonia for a bit, my landlady’s brother was blathering on about how the local indigenous tribes weren’t really angels and were fighting among themselves… which, I guess, justifies being nearly exterminated!

A Brazilian friend of mine was telling me how priests would claim the indigenous people didn’t have a soul and thus could be treated as animals and slaves by good Christians.

And then, I had an Australian-movie streak some time ago (saw some really good ones) and I was truly shocked to learn about the Stolen Generations (also known as Stolen Children): “children of Australian Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander descent who were removed from their families by the Australian federal and state government agencies and church missions, under acts of their respective parliaments. The removals of those referred to as "half-caste" children were conducted in the period between approximately 1905 and 1967, although in some places mixed-race children were still being taken into the 1970s.

I find it mind-boggling that the aborigines have lived in Australia for SIXTY THOUSAND YEARS... and then white man came took everyone, as Midnight Oil sing (in a song which, I learnt after I learnt about the Stolen Generations, was written exactly about that). (White men *and* aractus. Jesus! No one deserves that! Dodgy )


(The movie about it is called Rabbit-Proof Fence: about three “half-caste” girls who were taken from their families, in order to be converted to Xtianity and trained to work  (as servants and manual labourers) and assimilate in white society.) They manage to escape from the facility they are taken to and walk for 1200 miles to go back home, managing to evade the police who are chasing them...

(though at the end they showed the real, now old, women on whose real life the movie’s based... and seeing them and hearing what happened to them later... it’s heart-breaking)
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#37

Crucifixion argument....
(03-31-2021, 04:01 PM)Inkubus Wrote: Do not click this. The Boats

I won't. I still need some sanity left Shake
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#38

Crucifixion argument....
(03-31-2021, 05:41 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Generally the legs were broken to hasten along the deaths.


Which is the exact opposite of what crucifixion was intended to do.

Well, from what I read when someone was taking too long to die they'd break their legs to hasten along the death because they were taking up too much valuable crucifixion time, especially when there was a back log of criminals to nail up.  As Josephus wrote there were up to 600 Jews a day being crucified over a period of months.   Sometimes they'd run out of the cross beam wood and just nail them up on the upright beam.  I believe I read that they imported some of the wood.... I think  from Syria?    The Romans were a very organized bunch and probably got very adept at this horrible punishment.    But allowing a nice friendly little traditional Jewish burial wasn't in the works.   

In the example above one cannot tell how long the victim was left up on the cross.   It could have been three days or a full week or even longer.  Even if the nail was removed from the heel it would have left considerable damage but the guy I was in a heated argument with claimed archaeologists can't tell if a hole in a bone is from a root growing through it or bugs or a crucifixion  nail, therefore forensic archaeologists can only tell if someone has been crucified if the nail is still in the bone....to which I called "bullshit".  There have been spear wounds holes found in 10,000 year old animals . 

The real reason archaeologists can't find crucified people in their archaeological excavations of the thousands of tombs they've unearthed is because the Romans didn't allow crucified people to be buried or if they did it was a rare event.  Jesus was a nobody trouble maker who didn't mean diddly-squat to them and his body would have been tossed into a pit or burned.   

I wish I could find it but some ancient historian wrote about someone begging for money to bribe the Romans to let him take down the crucified body to bury it so it might have happened occasionally but the New Testament Jesus burial is pure fiction.    

I always laugh that his tomb has a huge stone sealing him in that was rolled away for him to get out.  He's supernatural.  He's god. He created the universe. Why does he need to roll a stone out of the way to get out of a tomb? Can't he just walk through the damned wall?   Geesh!
                                                         T4618
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#39

Crucifixion argument....
Quote:As Josephus wrote there were up to 600 Jews a day being crucified over a period of months.


Normally with Josephus I delete a zero from any number he puts out.  Exaggeration in ancient literature was commonplace.  Tacitus, who xhristards insist was a meticulous historian, insists that the Britons brought an incredible multitude to Boudicca's battle with Suetonius Paulinus and that Paulinus' men killed no less than 80,000 Britons!  The number is ridiculous.  There was no logistical base to sustain an army of that size.  They'd have starved to death or deserted long before battle was joined.  But Paulinus is given a far more reasonable figure of 10,000 men which included his legion, auxiliaries and detachments of other Romans he picked up along the way.  Tacitus is certainly not the only Roman historian to engage in such numerical blasphemy.  Cassius Dio, writing over a century after Tacitus gives the figure of 230,000 for Boudicca's army.  Well, the Romans overcoming such a huge army is something to be proud of.... again, even if historically absurd.

This sort of thing happens constantly.



Quote:Even if the nail was removed from the heel it would have left considerable damage but the guy I was in a heated argument with claimed archaeologists can't tell if a hole in a bone is from a root growing through it or bugs or a crucifixion  nail, therefore forensic archaeologists can only tell if someone has been crucified if the nail is still in the bone....to which I called "bullshit".  There have been spear wounds holes found in 10,000 year old animals .

That guy is an asshole.  BTW, they didn't always use nails.  Lots of times they used ropes.  It tended to drag the process out which again argues against any wholesale leg-breaking to hasten things along.  I suppose you could always have someone who was near the end of their shift and wanted to get to the cafe, but, that probably didn't happen a lot!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#40

Crucifixion argument....
(03-31-2021, 10:09 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:As Josephus wrote there were up to 600 Jews a day being crucified over a period of months.


Normally with Josephus I delete a zero from any number he puts out.  Exaggeration in ancient literature was commonplace.  Tacitus, who xhristards insist was a meticulous historian, insists that the Britons brought an incredible multitude to Boudicca's battle with Suetonius Paulinus and that Paulinus' men killed no less than 80,000 Britons!  The number is ridiculous.  There was no logistical base to sustain an army of that size.  They'd have starved to death or deserted long before battle was joined.  But Paulinus is given a far more reasonable figure of 10,000 men which included his legion, auxiliaries and detachments of other Romans he picked up along the way.  Tacitus is certainly not the only Roman historian to engage in such numerical blasphemy.  Cassius Dio, writing over a century after Tacitus gives the figure of 230,000 for Boudicca's army.  Well, the Romans overcoming such a huge army is something to be proud of.... again, even if historically absurd.

This sort of thing happens constantly.



Quote:Even if the nail was removed from the heel it would have left considerable damage but the guy I was in a heated argument with claimed archaeologists can't tell if a hole in a bone is from a root growing through it or bugs or a crucifixion  nail, therefore forensic archaeologists can only tell if someone has been crucified if the nail is still in the bone....to which I called "bullshit".  There have been spear wounds holes found in 10,000 year old animals .

That guy is an asshole.  BTW, they didn't always use nails.  Lots of times they used ropes.  It tended to drag the process out which again argues against any wholesale leg-breaking to hasten things along.  I suppose you could always have someone who was near the end of their shift and wanted to get to the cafe, but, that probably didn't happen a lot!

There are other sources for mass crucifixion during previous eras.  Some of them are by Jewish leaders themselves.  In 83 BCE Alexander Jannaeus, who was a High Priest of the Second Temple, had 800 political Jewish opponents crucified.  In 2018 archaeologists found the site of a massacre by Jannaeus against his rivals which seemed to include babies and pregnant women.   This was all part of a 6 year bloody Judean Civil War and as with all civil wars the number of dead is usually very high.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/mass-buria...ody-reign/
                                                         T4618
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#41

Crucifixion argument....
Another example where at least one zero should be knocked off of Josephus!


BTW, D42, about those crucified slaves.  One of the more enduring legacies after the final battle of the Spartacus revolt is that Crassus had the slaves crucified along the Appian Way all the way back to Rome.

The only account of this happening is in Appian's history, who lived late in the 2d century CE.  Plutarch, writing in the earlier part of the 2d century does not mention it.  Livy's History is lost but we do have what are called the Periochae, which are short summaries of important events.   Livy also omits any mention of the slaves being crucified.  Rather it seems that Crassus' legionaries massacred the slaves and that several thousand of them who fled the field ran straight in to the approaching army of Gnaeus Pompey who had force marched from Spain to Southern Italy.  Stanley Kubrick's movie aside, Pompey and Lucullus did not make it to the Battle of the Silarius River in time to kill Spartacus.


Then there is geography.  Crassus had blockaded Spartacus in Bruttium which is the toe of the boot of Italy.  Spartacus broke out and fled north but soon realized that he was heading right for Pompey.  He turned to face Crassus and was annihilated.

The Appian Way runs between Rome and Capua and was eventually extended to Brundusium on the "heel" of Italy.  The idea that Roman soldiers would have marched slaves all the way back to Capua just to start nailing them up to crosses is a bit much to be believed.  Perhaps Appian was indulging in a little poetic license?
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#42

Crucifixion argument....
(03-31-2021, 11:02 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Another example where at least one zero should be knocked off of Josephus!


BTW, D42, about those crucified slaves.  One of the more enduring legacies after the final battle of the Spartacus revolt is that Crassus had the slaves crucified along the Appian Way all the way back to Rome.

The only account of this happening is in Appian's history, who lived late in the 2d century CE.  Plutarch, writing in the earlier part of the 2d century does not mention it.  Livy's History is lost but we do have what are called the Periochae, which are short summaries of important events.   Livy also omits any mention of the slaves being crucified.  Rather it seems that Crassus' legionaries massacred the slaves and that several thousand of them who fled the field ran straight in to the approaching army of Gnaeus Pompey who had force marched from Spain to Southern Italy.  Stanley Kubrick's movie aside, Pompey and Lucullus did not make it to the Battle of the Silarius River in time to kill Spartacus.


Then there is geography.  Crassus had blockaded Spartacus in Bruttium which is the toe of the boot of Italy.  Spartacus broke out and fled north but soon realized that he was heading right for Pompey.  He turned to face Crassus and was annihilated.

The Appian Way runs between Rome and Capua and was eventually extended to Brundusium on the "heel" of Italy.  The idea that Roman soldiers would have marched slaves all the way back to Capua just to start nailing them up to crosses is a bit much to be believed.  Perhaps Appian was indulging in a little poetic license?

Hummm.  I bet some of the slaves were brought back and crucified as an example to others who might get the same notion, after all that's part of what crucifixion was all about.  This uprising was a pretty big deal to the Roman government.   I bet they wanted to make an example out of some of the slaves.  I knew that the movie had it all wrong with Spartacus.  They killed him on the battle field. 

That's the other thing with the Jesus story, and Christians get particularly upset when I bring this up, if Jesus, a convicted criminal, had somehow managed to live through the crucifixion and was seen walking around Jerusalem the Romans would simply have sent out some soldiers and killed him on the spot.   It's ridiculous to think that crowds of people were awstruck seeing Jesus alive again but the Romans did nothing about it. That's just not how they operated.  It would be completely out of character for the Roman government to do nothing and allow their capital punishment system be devalued like that.  

It also amuses me that Paul claims 500 people saw Jesus alive after death.  My, but isn't 500 a nice round number?  It wasn't 478 or 532, nope...it was 500 people who saw Jesus.  Did he meet any of them? Nope.  Did He interview them?  Nope.  He just made the number up out of his head or heard a bunch of gossip. 

I think the gospels should be renamed "The Gossips"
                                                         T4618
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#43

Crucifixion argument....
They made an example of all of them.  Dead is dead.  The Romans were highly practical people.

Pompey was quite proud of himself.


By the time the resurrection story was concocted (40-100 years after the alleged event) there would have been no one alive who could have remembered back that far.  Even the fools who wrote that shit down seem to have forgotten that in the early 1st century Galilee and Judaea were separate political entities.  So much for inerrantism.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#44

Crucifixion argument....
(04-01-2021, 01:57 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote: That's the other thing with the Jesus story, and Christians get particularly upset when I bring this up, if Jesus, a convicted criminal, had somehow managed to live through the crucifixion and was seen walking around Jerusalem the Romans would simply have sent out some soldiers and killed him on the spot.   It's ridiculous to think that crowds of people were awstruck seeing Jesus alive again but the Romans didn't nothing about it. That's just not how they operated.  It would be completely out of character for the Roman government to do nothing and allow their capital punishment system be devalued like that.  

And this is the same army that allowed such a large crowd to gather in the first place and no large pile of bodies to show for it?
A loony creates bother in the temple courtyard and lives to tell the tail, then they lose him and need to bribe people to find him again. By now I imagine the soldiers would be pretty determined to see this guy whacked, but no. They nailed the wrong bloke to the tree. I think I can guess Pilates thoughts at this time, decimation.
But no, as you point out it is totally inconceivable this chain of events happened anything like described. Ripping Yarns.
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#45

Crucifixion argument....
(03-31-2021, 02:48 PM)Cavebear Wrote: ...Perhaps we are moving to actually NOT executing people at all.  That might be a non brazened foot/step forward.  Sometimes, the best courts get it wrong.

And once again—of course!—America bucks the trend globally.  This map illustrates
the current state of capital punishment in each country.

[Image: 1920px-Capital_punishment_in_the_world.svg.png]

The red indicates retentionist countries; the dark green indicates total abolishment;
other colours indicate a 10-year inactive law or de jure  moratorium.

—Take a bow Americans; never let humanity or decency curtail your killer instincts.      Angry



(Although I guess this at least gives the US something in common with China, Saudi Arabia,
North Korea, Iraq and Iran, and DR Congo.     Well done.)
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#46

Crucifixion argument....
(03-31-2021, 02:48 PM)Cavebear Wrote: I sometimes think it is possible to judge our humane advancement by how we struggle to execute some criminals with least pain.  Sure beats baking them alive in ovens or tortured to death or hanging them upside down until the blood pressure kills (and there were worse).

Perhaps we are moving to actually NOT executing people at all.  That might be a non brazened foot/step forward.  Sometimes, the best courts get it wrong.

Frankly the only kind of society morally capable to execute a person would be a society where executions are unwanted and unnecessary.
Factio Republicanus delenda est!
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#47

Crucifixion argument....
(04-01-2021, 01:58 PM)SYZ Wrote:
(03-31-2021, 02:48 PM)Cavebear Wrote: ...Perhaps we are moving to actually NOT executing people at all.  That might be a non brazened foot/step forward.  Sometimes, the best courts get it wrong.

And once again—of course!—America bucks the trend globally.  This map illustrates
the current state of capital punishment in each country.

[Image: 1920px-Capital_punishment_in_the_world.svg.png]

The red indicates retentionist countries; the dark green indicates total abolishment;
other colours indicate a 10-year inactive law or de jure  moratorium.

—Take a bow Americans; never let humanity or decency curtail your killer instincts.      Angry



(Although I guess this at least gives the US something in common with China, Saudi Arabia,
North Korea, Iraq and Iran, and DR Congo.     Well done.)

Actually, by the map DR Congo hasn't had an execution in ten years, i.e. a de facto moratorium on judicial murder.
Factio Republicanus delenda est!
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#48

Crucifixion argument....
One of the less recognized aspects of crucifixion is the proof of divine planning (and therefore proof of divinity) in the material used for crucifixions:  lumber.  Lumber is of course hewn from trees, and what makes lumber particularly suited to crucifixions is its strength to weight ratio, which is considerably higher than for other materials, such as mud, stone, straw, or bone.

Lumber would not have the strength it does were the earth's rotational axis more closely perpendicular to the orbital plane.  The tilt of the spin axis creates seasonality away from the equator, and seasonality changes tree growth rates in a regular pattern.  It makes tree rings.  Tree rings make wood a ribbed material, and ribbed structures have much higher strength to weight ratios than homogenous structures.  It makes lumber absolutely ideal for crucifixions.

Consider the genius of foresight when a divinity crafts a fresh world knowing a sacrifice of its own progeny will be necessary that it tips the world off the perpendicular just enough to create seasonality, making lumber a practical structural material suitable for crucifixions.  It's a damn miracle!

Here is clear evidence of divine creation!

Right?

The foregoing is evidence alright, but evidence that evidence by itself is meaningless, that what makes evidence useful isn't that there's evidence, what makes it useful it competent assessment of it, and the foregoing is NOT competent.  The foregoing fails to include a competent assessment of its assumption that planetary spin axes off perpendicular are rare.  They aren't rare; in fact, they'd be the rule.  Off all the possible configurations of spin axis angle to orbital plane, only a tiny few are close to perpendicular; the overwhelming majority are going to be off perpendicular.  Thus NO divine planning produces tree rings, plain random chance does.  And only the perfidy of humankind turns the abundance of lumber into a tool for crucifixion.
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#49

Crucifixion argument....
(04-10-2021, 09:16 AM)airportkid Wrote: One of the less recognized aspects of crucifixion is the proof of divine planning (and therefore proof of divinity) in the material used for crucifixions:  lumber.  Lumber is of course hewn from trees, and what makes lumber particularly suited to crucifixions is its strength to weight ratio, which is considerably higher than for other materials, such as mud, stone, straw, or bone.

Lumber would not have the strength it does were the earth's rotational axis more closely perpendicular to the orbital plane.  The tilt of the spin axis creates seasonality away from the equator, and seasonality changes tree growth rates in a regular pattern.  It makes tree rings.  Tree rings make wood a ribbed material, and ribbed structures have much higher strength to weight ratios than homogenous structures.  It makes lumber absolutely ideal for crucifixions.

Consider the genius of foresight when a divinity crafts a fresh world knowing a sacrifice of its own progeny will be necessary that it tips the world off the perpendicular just enough to create seasonality, making lumber a practical structural material suitable for crucifixions.  It's a damn miracle!

Here is clear evidence of divine creation!

Right?

The foregoing is evidence alright, but evidence that evidence by itself is meaningless, that what makes evidence useful isn't that there's evidence, what makes it useful it competent assessment of it, and the foregoing is NOT competent.  The foregoing fails to include a competent assessment of its assumption that planetary spin axes off perpendicular are rare.  They aren't rare; in fact, they'd be the rule.  Off all the possible configurations of spin axis angle to orbital plane, only a tiny few are close to perpendicular; the overwhelming majority are going to be off perpendicular.  Thus NO divine planning produces tree rings, plain random chance does.  And only the perfidy of humankind turns the abundance of lumber into a tool for crucifixion.

(04-10-2021, 09:16 AM)airportkid Wrote: Consider the genius of foresight when a divinity crafts a fresh world knowing a sacrifice of its own progeny will be necessary that it tips the world off the perpendicular just enough to create seasonality, making lumber a practical structural material suitable for crucifixions.  It's a damn miracle!

Foreknowledge it a real pain in the ass for an omniscient god.
                                                         T4618
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#50

Crucifixion argument....
"God" always seems surprised when the people he picks for an assignment let him down.  Apparently he was a shitty judge of character.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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