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New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
#1

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
Archaeologists did a sweep of 500 caves throughout the area in an on going attempt to prevent plundering of the caves in Israel. They found a woven basked estimated to be 10,500 years old!!!

[Image: israel-dead-sea-scrolls.jpg]

Some old silver coins "struck by rebels in the Jewish uprising against Rome between 132 - 136 CE" 

[Image: israel-dead-sea-scrolls.jpg] 


And fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

[Image: israel-dead-sea-scrolls.jpg]

Acording to the article there are....

Quote:slight variations in the Greek rendering of the Hebrew original compared to the Septuagint — a translation of the Hebrew Bible to Greek made in Egypt in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC.
"When we think about the biblical text, we think about something very static. It wasn't static. There are slight differences and some of those differences are important," said Joe Uziel, head of the antiquities authority's Dead Sea scrolls unit.
"Every little piece of information that we can add, we can understand a little bit better," how the biblical text came into its traditional Hebrew form.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/new-d...-1.5951332
                                                         T4618
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#2

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
I hope ARCHAEOLOGY MAGAZINE does a feature article on this discovery soon.  Read
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#3

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
I don't know if you'll be able to open this or not..... I get notices from Haaretz and I am not a subscriber but that might have been a grandfathered benefit since I've been registered with them for years.


https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/.pre...bc4ae62a0b


Quote:Israel Finds New Dead Sea Scrolls, First Such Discovery in 60 Years

Written mainly in Greek, newly unveiled Dead Sea Scrolls fragments contain parts of the book of the 12 minor prophets. Massive survey of Israel's Judean Desert caves also discovered body of mummified child wrapped in a 6,000-year-old blanket


They do some pretty good archaeology write ups.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#4

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
I may be an atheist, but I love religion, and this find excites me.
[Image: sea-stones-whimsy-7-sm.jpg]
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#5

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
Then you'll love this earlier find.

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/1960-bar-...-1.5360933


Quote:This Day in Jewish History |
1960: Archaeologist Announces Finding 2,000-year Old Letters by Bar Kochba in Desert Cave
The letters presented by Yigael Yadin were signed by Bar Kochba, the man revered by modern Israelis — but who led the Jewish nation to disaster.


Quote:The letters had been signed by the legendary Jewish warrior Shimon Bar Kochba, leader of a devastating second-century revolt against Rome, and had been found high up in a cave overlooking the Nahal Hever canyon, west of the Dead Sea.  The news was received with great excitement, both internationally and in a State of Israel that was still searching for connections to the ancient Jewish presence in the land.

The Bar Kochba letters, which were supplemented by additional finds from nearby the next year, had been found in what came to be called the Cave of Letters. The cave, in a canyon midway between Ein Gedi and Masada, had been explored a few years earlier by Bedouin from the Ta’amireh tribe.

Yadin’s team’s initial finds were human skulls and a variety of textiles dating to the second century C.E. They also found coins minted during the short-lived Bar Kochba revolt and a packet of 11 letters inside a waterskin.
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#6

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-17-2021, 04:36 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Then you'll love this earlier find.

https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/1960-bar-...-1.5360933


Quote:This Day in Jewish History |
1960: Archaeologist Announces Finding 2,000-year Old Letters by Bar Kochba in Desert Cave
The letters presented by Yigael Yadin were signed by Bar Kochba, the man revered by modern Israelis — but who led the Jewish nation to disaster.


Quote:The letters had been signed by the legendary Jewish warrior Shimon Bar Kochba, leader of a devastating second-century revolt against Rome, and had been found high up in a cave overlooking the Nahal Hever canyon, west of the Dead Sea.  The news was received with great excitement, both internationally and in a State of Israel that was still searching for connections to the ancient Jewish presence in the land.

The Bar Kochba letters, which were supplemented by additional finds from nearby the next year, had been found in what came to be called the Cave of Letters. The cave, in a canyon midway between Ein Gedi and Masada, had been explored a few years earlier by Bedouin from the Ta’amireh tribe.

Yadin’s team’s initial finds were human skulls and a variety of textiles dating to the second century C.E. They also found coins minted during the short-lived Bar Kochba revolt and a packet of 11 letters inside a waterskin.

Oh, thanks Min.   I love archaeology.  When I was in college we were required to take three science classes to get a BA degree and I wanted to take the basic archaeology class that was offered to fulfill that requirement but it was a very popular class and  always filled up before I could get in.   Apparently the teacher was great fun and you learned a crap load about archaeology.    In lieu of that class I read about archaeology when ever I can.
                                                         T4618
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#7

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
This is an interesting find. I don't know anything beyond the basic news report yet, but apparently there is greek involved, so maybe they will be easier to read. I haven't generally paid much attention to The Dead Sea Scrolls because, after all, they were written by religious fanatics and the information isn't necessarily accurate. But perhaps there is some social/cultural information in them that would be helpful to understanding the time.

And who knows, perhaps some information contradictory-to-modern-claims will be found. I suppose the thought that some ancient skeptic slipped something into them is too unlikely, but one can hope. Wink
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#8

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-17-2021, 02:48 AM)Gwaithmir Wrote: I hope ARCHAEOLOGY MAGAZINE does a feature article on this discovery soon.  Read

I subscribe to that, so I also hope there is an article soon. Dance
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#9

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
Quote: I haven't generally paid much attention to The Dead Sea Scrolls because, after all, they were written by religious fanatics and the information isn't necessarily accurate.


The truth is that we really don't know who wrote the DSS because they seem to be a rather esoteric collection that spans a period of nearly 3 centuries.  The initial picture of a bunch of monk-like scribes busily copying documents was put forward by Roland De Vaux, a French Dominican priest ( hold that thought) who connected the caves with the nearby location of Qumran.  Two Israeli archaeologists, Magen and Peleg, concluded after excavations that the site was a pottery production site not a religious enclave.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/scien...croll.html

Quote:Dr. Magen and Dr. Peleg said that, indeed, the elaborate water system at Qumran appeared to be designed to bring the clay-laced water into the site for the purposes of the pottery industry. No other site in the region has been found to have such a water system.
By the time the Romans destroyed Qumran in A.D. 68 in the Jewish revolt, the archaeologists concluded, the settlement had been a center of the pottery industry for at least a century. Before that, the site apparently was an outpost in a chain of fortresses along the Israelites’ eastern frontier.
“The association between Qumran, the caves and the scrolls is, thus, a hypothesis lacking any factual archaeological basis,” Dr. Magen said in an article in the current issue of Biblical Archaeology Review.

More, there are two discussions of the Essenes in Josephus.  Neither of them gives any indication that they spent a lot of time copying books.  As a matter of fact Josephus points out that far from living in remote monasteries they lived in communal groups in the cities.  Somehow De Vaux missed that.... or it did not mesh with his desire to turn them into medieval monks!
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#10

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-17-2021, 08:57 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: I haven't generally paid much attention to The Dead Sea Scrolls because, after all, they were written by religious fanatics and the information isn't necessarily accurate.


The truth is that we really don't know who wrote the DSS because they seem to be a rather esoteric collection that spans a period of nearly 3 centuries.  The initial picture of a bunch of monk-like scribes busily copying documents was put forward by Roland De Vaux, a French Dominican priest ( hold that thought) who connected the caves with the nearby location of Qumran.  Two Israeli archaeologists, Magen and Peleg, concluded after excavations that the site was a pottery production site not a religious enclave.

https://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/15/scien...croll.html

Quote:Dr. Magen and Dr. Peleg said that, indeed, the elaborate water system at Qumran appeared to be designed to bring the clay-laced water into the site for the purposes of the pottery industry. No other site in the region has been found to have such a water system.
By the time the Romans destroyed Qumran in A.D. 68 in the Jewish revolt, the archaeologists concluded, the settlement had been a center of the pottery industry for at least a century. Before that, the site apparently was an outpost in a chain of fortresses along the Israelites’ eastern frontier.
“The association between Qumran, the caves and the scrolls is, thus, a hypothesis lacking any factual archaeological basis,” Dr. Magen said in an article in the current issue of Biblical Archaeology Review.

More, there are two discussions of the Essenes in Josephus.  Neither of them gives any indication that they spent a lot of time copying books.  As a matter of fact Josephus points out that far from living in remote monasteries they lived in communal groups in the cities.  Somehow De Vaux missed that.... or it did not mesh with his desire to turn them into medieval monks!

Forgive me, I'm a little confused here. I'm not sure if you are connecting the Dead Sea Scrolls with Messina. It seems so, given the dates and mentioning Josephus. With that in mind, I consider Josephus to be more a writer of fiction and self-aggrandizement rather than a useful historical source. If you could clarify that, I would appreciate it. Thanks...
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#11

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
Messina?  You lost me.

Generally speaking, the larger elements of Josephus' commentaries are borne out by archaeological research.  We know that there were battles at the sites he mentions in Galilee and we know the Romans sacked and burned Jerusalem.  WE also know that the Romans laid siege to Masada even though Josephus, himself, was in Rome at the time.  These things happened.

Where Josephus gets off track is when he starts trying to cover up his own execrable conduct ( he was a traitor ) and he was every bit as much of a Flavian asskisser as Lindsey Graham is to Fuckface.  Personally he was despicable but that does not automatically rule out his observations of the time particularly if he was not personally involved.  His discussions of the Sadducees and Pharisees seem accurate.  Why discount what he says about the relavtively minor sect of the Essenes?

Like most historians of the age he took stories and put them into a context that suited his needs.  That's no different than Livy or Tacitus.  But we have nothing else to go by.  Later xtians saw fit to allow the work of Justus of Tiberias to vanish because he did not mention their precious godboy.  In fact, the main reason we have Josephus' writings is because later xtians forged a few passages about their hero into him and other xtians decided he was worth saving on their account.  It would have been nice to see Justus' work if only to provide some counterpoint to Josephus.  Apparently, they were rivals.  Nothing like a good pissing contest.
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#12

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-17-2021, 09:22 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Messina?  You lost me.

Generally speaking, the larger elements of Josephus' commentaries are borne out by archaeological research.  We know that there were battles at the sites he mentions in Galilee and we know the Romans sacked and burned Jerusalem.  WE also know that the Romans laid siege to Masada even though Josephus, himself, was in Rome at the time.  These things happened.

Where Josephus gets off track is when he starts trying to cover up his own execrable conduct ( he was a traitor ) and he was every bit as much of a Flavian asskisser as Lindsey Graham is to Fuckface.  Personally he was despicable but that does not automatically rule out his observations of the time particularly if he was not personally involved.  His discussions of the Sadducees and Pharisees seem accurate.  Why discount what he says about the relavtively minor sect of the Essenes?

Like most historians of the age he took stories and put them into a context that suited his needs.  That's no different than Livy or Tacitus.  But we have nothing else to go by.  Later xtians saw fit to allow the work of Justus of Tiberias to vanish because he did not mention their precious godboy.  In fact, the main reason we have Josephus' writings is because later xtians forged a few passages about their hero into him and other xtians decided he was worth saving on their account.  It would have been nice to see Justus' work if only to provide some counterpoint to Josephus.  Apparently, they were rivals.  Nothing like a good pissing contest.

Crap, I meant "Masada". Sorry, "brainfuck"; I should have checked. I thought Josephus claimed to be there as a lone survivor of the suicide lots. I may have to re-read about that.

Thanks for the clarification.
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#13

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
LOL.  I though you confused Essenes with Messina which would have been worse!


Funny you should mention that.  Josephus was the survivor of the lot-drawing charade at the end of the siege of Jotapata.  Which, btw, if you want to see what a self-aggrandizing piece of shit Josephus really was that is the passage to read.

Strangely, a suspiciously familiar tale emerges from his writing about the end of the siege of Masada for which, as I said, Josephus was in Rome with his new master, Vespasian, while the siege was conducted by the  Legio X under the command of Flavius Silva, a kinsman of Flavius Vespasianus because, hey, keep it in the family.  Nonetheless - it doesn't stop Josephus from inventing lots of details and, at the same time managing not to place any blame for the massacre on the family of the Flavians.

You see, man.  I am a suspicious old fuck!
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#14

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
BTW, how are you feeling?
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#15

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-17-2021, 10:30 PM)Minimalist Wrote: BTW, how are you feeling?

I am doing better slowly. I'm pretty much walking normally, though I get stiff hips after a whole-store shopping trip. The left thumb is strengthening though careful daily use. The separated right clavicle is annoying and odd, but I can lift things with it. Its when I try to lift anything just right-armed above my shoulder it shows a weakness. There are the occasional "ouches" when I lean forward reading the newspaper.

The right shoulder is weak in some ways and "normal" in others. It's just that I have to be careful how I move the right arm. It has been 2 1/2 months now. The first few weeks were horrible just getting in and out of bed. That's back to noirmal and I am relieved. Stairs are OK now, though when I'm carrying stuff up (groceries) or down (trash) or both (laundry) I take it both feet on each step for safety.

Driving the car is easy. Both feet (I'm a 2-foot-pedal-user) work fine. Shopping is fine. I had a box of N95 masks from years ago (pressure-treated wood-dust particles) and I wear one every time I'm out. I rotate them so any virus dies waiting, LOL!

I probably won't ever be QUITE the same as I was before falling off the extension ladder, but it could be worse.

I have an appointment with the orthopedic surgeon in a few weeks. I have resisted having the clavicle/scapula re-attachment surgery (because of 8 weeks and severe tight sling restictions, but I do have a good list of questions about it from friends/family/bloggers. The 8 weeks of the tight constriction sling after a pin insert operation would be very difficult for me. Living alone is hard in some ways.

And I DO thank you for asking...
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#16

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
I hear you, man.  At our age, ladders are an enemy.
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#17

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
Josephus' bullshit of how he escaped death in Jotapata is in Chapter 8.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-3.html
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#18

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-17-2021, 11:33 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Josephus' bullshit of how he escaped death in Jotapata is in Chapter 8.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/josephus/war-3.html

One can only smile.  And I'm printing chapter 8 for reference... I'm not sure what I will do with it (file in paper files under "religion" because I think Josephus was a lying scam-artist) but I sure do appreciate that you took the effort to post that link. Sharing what we know about bizarre religious writers and history is always good.
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#19

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-17-2021, 11:02 PM)Cavebear Wrote:
(03-17-2021, 10:30 PM)Minimalist Wrote: BTW, how are you feeling?

I am doing better slowly.  I'm pretty much walking normally, though I get stiff hips after a whole-store shopping trip.  The left thumb is strengthening though careful daily use. The separated right clavicle is annoying and odd, but I can lift things with it.  Its when I try to lift anything just right-armed above my shoulder it shows a weakness.  There are the occasional "ouches" when I lean forward reading the newspaper.  

The right shoulder is weak in some ways and "normal" in others.  It's just that I have to be careful how I move the right arm.  It has been 2 1/2 months now.  The first few weeks were horrible just getting in and out of bed.  That's back to noirmal and I am relieved.  Stairs are OK now, though when I'm carrying stuff up (groceries) or down (trash) or both (laundry) I take it both feet on each step for safety.

Driving the car is easy.  Both feet (I'm a 2-foot-pedal-user) work fine.  Shopping is fine.  I had a box of N95 masks from years ago (pressure-treated wood-dust particles) and I wear one every time I'm out.  I rotate them so any virus dies waiting, LOL!

I probably won't ever be QUITE the same as I was before falling off the extension ladder, but it could be worse.

I have an appointment with the orthopedic surgeon in a few weeks.  I have resisted having the clavicle/scapula re-attachment surgery (because of 8 weeks and severe tight sling restictions, but I do have a good list of questions about it from friends/family/bloggers.  The 8 weeks of the tight constriction sling after a pin insert operation would be very difficult for me.  Living alone is hard in some ways.  

And I DO thank you for asking...

Good to see that your are on the mend. I've lived alone for some time, after the Navy, and before I was married, so 40+ YA, which doesn't count, because in those days I was still immortal (in my 20s).

BoT, I'd be interested in seeing the beehive of activity and apologetics that come out of this new discovery.  Tongue
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#20

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
Forget the fucking Dead Sea Scrolls, I can't get over that 10,500 year old basket.  

Here's how they found it in the dirt. 


[Image: 1090478970.jpeg?precrop=1264,843,x0,y0&h...&width=600]


It's amazing that worms or bugs didn't get to it even though it was under the ground in a cave. It looks like it was woven a few years ago.  It still has the lid too.  


[Image: 3164359001.jpg?precrop=1988,2010,x0,y0&h...&width=600]

I didn't know this kind of plant material would last so long even in the desert.   And remember this was 4000 years before some dumb Christians think the earth began.
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#21

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
Wild, 'tis true. If this basket had been in the tropics, we wouldn't be discussing it. The desert desiccates things in a hurry. If one wants to dispose of a body, a warm wet place is best. The desert in the ME is not that place. Though I will say that the amount of time these fragments survived is still pretty amazing.
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#22

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-17-2021, 09:22 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Later xtians saw fit to allow the work of Justus of Tiberias to vanish because he did not mention their precious godboy.

So you're saying Justus became "Just Us".
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#23

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-18-2021, 02:30 AM)Fireball Wrote: Wild, 'tis true. If this basket had been in the tropics, we wouldn't be discussing it. The desert desiccates things in a hurry. If one wants to dispose of a body, a warm wet place is best. The desert in the ME is not that place. Though I will say that the amount of time these fragments survived is still pretty amazing.

It's pretty acidic soil from the looks of it, probably limestone-based? It'll harbor some life, but there's no worms or grubs getting into that. Looks a lot like our soil around here, at any rate.
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#24

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-18-2021, 03:02 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(03-17-2021, 09:22 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Later xtians saw fit to allow the work of Justus of Tiberias to vanish because he did not mention their precious godboy.

So you're saying Justus became "Just Us".

From the Bibliotheca of Photius, 9th century AD Bishop of Constantinople.

Quote:Suffering from the common fault of the Jews, to which race he belonged, he does not even mention the coming of Christ, the events of His life, or the miracles performed by Him.


So, less than "Just Us" it was more  like "Fuck Off."


Tiberias was in Galilee which meant that this jesus character, had he existed, would have been something of a local celebrity in Galilee.  Yet, Justus never seems to have heard of him.

No wonder Photius wanted nothing to do with him.
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#25

New fragments of the Dead Sea Scrolls found
(03-18-2021, 03:08 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(03-18-2021, 02:30 AM)Fireball Wrote: Wild, 'tis true. If this basket had been in the tropics, we wouldn't be discussing it. The desert desiccates things in a hurry. If one wants to dispose of a body, a warm wet place is best. The desert in the ME is not that place. Though I will say that the amount of time these fragments survived is still pretty amazing.

It's pretty acidic soil from the looks of it, probably limestone-based? It'll harbor some life, but there's no worms or grubs getting into that. Looks a lot like our soil around here, at any rate.

I expect the microbial life around an exposed 10K basket was about as "zero" as it can get. Otherwise, "no basket". I find it amazing how some things can last.
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