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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-07-2021, 03:49 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:2. The destruction of Temple 1

3. The destruction of Temple 2

Not quibbling, Buck, but we have not a shred of archaeological evidence that "Temple 1" ever existed.  Much like Solomon and a shitload of others that temple is a just a character in a book and must be considered fictional until such time as actual evidence for its existence is found.  As William Dever* has noted, there was apparently a long struggle between the Yahweh cult in the capitol trying to impose their Yahweh shit on everyone and resistance from the countryside who were still devotees of the old Canaanite pantheon centered on bamot or "high places" not "temples." This "return from exile" bullshit needs some serious examining!


Temple 2 - supposedly the one they built on the return from Babylon - itself a horseshit story - was not "destroyed."  Josephus recounts that Herod the Great replaced it with his monumental (3d) Temple and then apparently demolished the old piece of shit.

The Third Temple was burned in Titus' sack of the city in 70 and the Temple variant of Judaism bit the dust to be replaced by rabbinic Judaism. So much for the "unchanging" nature of judaism!


*  W. Dever Did God Have A Wife

David was also probably a little overblown.   Archaeologists did find a slab of stone with writing on it saying "House of David".   It was part of the Tel Dan stele commorating several victories by an Aramean king over the House of David in which several thousand Israelites died.  So here we have a stele carved maybe around 100 years after David lived, celebrating the defeat of his royal house by a foe.  If it is the Biblical David he didn't exactly establish a huge power base for his tribal house to continue on for very long.    The dating on the Tel Dan is at the earliest 870 BCE and not much later than 750 BCE.  According to the Bible David lived between 1035 to 970 BCE.
                                                         T4618
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Quote: Archaeologists did find a slab of stone with writing on it saying "House of David".

They found a slab of stone with the letters bytdwd written on it.  It was written in Aramaic which makes sense given that it was a commemorative stele erected by Hazael, king of Aram-Damascus.  But the fact that it was written Aramaic is the key.  Aramaic used dots as word separators.  Thus House of David should have a dot between byt and dwd.  It does not.  In the opinion of scholar George Athas who wrote his PH. D. dissertation on the stele, this makes it a single idea such as a place name, i.e. Dwdville or Dwdburg.

Naming places after local gods was a pretty common tactic in antiquity.  Athens = derived from Athena.  Rome derived from Romulus.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-07-2021, 08:49 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: Archaeologists did find a slab of stone with writing on it saying "House of David".

They found a slab of stone with the letters bytdwd written on it.  It was written in Aramaic which makes sense given that it was a commemorative stele erected by Hazael, king of Aram-Damascus.  But the fact that it was written Aramaic is the key.  Aramaic used dots as word separators.  Thus House of David should have a dot between byt and dwd.  It does not.  In the opinion of scholar George Athas who wrote his PH. D. dissertation on the stele, this makes it a single idea such as a place name, i.e. Dwdville or Dwdburg.

Naming places after local gods was a pretty common tactic in antiquity.  Athens = derived from Athena.  Rome derived from Romulus.

Yeah, I've read that but most scholars, even Biblical minimalists, believe it was "the house of david".    It's not in the realm of crazy thinking  to believe a guy named David lived and had some local authority which was deemed "royal".   That's not the crazy part.  The crazy part is thinking that he was chosen by a deity and his tribe was super special, more special and higher ranking that all the other tribes in that area and it's true because it says so in an old book.  Magical thinking is the problem, not that David actually lived.  

Sargon of Akkad probably lived in the 23 century BCE and was probably the first ruler who could be called an emperor and many myths and magical stories have grown up around him including the legend of his birth.  This story was found on old stone tablets in the Library of Ashurbanipal.  Archaeologists discount the birth story as pure imagination not that Sargon actually lived.     It's important to separate magic from historic people.  If you toss out all ancient historic figures because myths, legends and magical abilities have been attributed to them then you're going to be left with a lot of empty ancient history.
                                                         T4618
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
This is not a matter to decide by a vote.  Either it is in Aramaic or it isn't. 

[Image: Garfinkel-4.jpg]

The word in question is on line #9.  You will note that the word in question is clearly denoted by a dot on both sides... but there is no dot between byt and dwd.

Athas has a point.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-07-2021, 11:10 PM)Minimalist Wrote: This is not a matter to decide by a vote.  Either it is in Aramaic or it isn't. 

[Image: Garfinkel-4.jpg]

The word in question is on line #9.  You will note that the word in question is clearly denoted by a dot on both sides... but there is no dot between byt and dwd.

Athas has a point.

I've seen this and read all the literature on this stele.  It was probably written 100 years after David lived.   

If a cuneiform tablet written contemporary to the time David lived was found would you come to the conclusion that all the Bible stories were true?  That David killed a giant with a stone and a god spoke to him and annointed him to lead his favorite tribe to victory and all that other malarky?   I'm sure you wouldn't ... anymore than you believe the Lady of Fatima really appeared to three kids in Portugal in 1917 and, heck sakes,  we even have contemporary photos of the those three kids.  My fight with religion isn't that someone existed, it's all the magical thinking that surrounds it.  Wasting time fighting whether someone existed isn't worth it to me because there will never be a "gotcha" moment that keeps people from believing in this stuff.  Even if you prove David never existed that's not the problem.  The crux of the problem is that people believe in the supernatural to explain stuff.  That's the core problem.
                                                         T4618
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-07-2021, 11:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(03-07-2021, 11:10 PM)Minimalist Wrote: This is not a matter to decide by a vote.  Either it is in Aramaic or it isn't. 

[Image: Garfinkel-4.jpg]

The word in question is on line #9.  You will note that the word in question is clearly denoted by a dot on both sides... but there is no dot between byt and dwd.

Athas has a point.

I've seen this and read all the literature on this stele.  It was probably written 100 years after David lived.   

If a cuneiform tablet written contemporary to the time David lived was found would you come to the conclusion that all the Bible stories were true?  That David killed a giant with a stone and a god spoke to him and annointed him to lead his favorite tribe to victory and all that other malarky?   I'm sure you wouldn't ... anymore than you believe the Lady of Fatima really appeared to three kids in Portugal in 1917 and, heck sakes,  we even have contemporary photos of the those three kids.  My fight with religion isn't that someone existed, it's all the magical thinking that surrounds it.  Wasting time fighting whether someone existed isn't worth it to me because there will never be a "gotcha" moment that keeps people from believing in this stuff.  Even if you prove David never existed that's not the problem.  The crux of the problem is that people believe in the supernatural to explain stuff.  That's the core problem.

Good point. I would not be moved to believe or disbelieve a religious story based solely on the existence of an artifact. I would expect artifacts would eventually be found, but their existence does not prove the stories that were created around them.
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
There's something wrong with AD's servers.
It's been incredibly slow all day. It's not my system.

I was looking at some of the Aish Discovery's YouTubes.
They are about the equivalent of what we are familiar with in the US as The (creationism) Discovery Institute, and that ilk, and general level of lies. That bad. Totally bogus level of scholarship, total one-sided sales job ... they reek of bullshit.  
Worst of all, (I kid you not) it's got sections (touted as "science") concerning "Bible codes" ... you got it, "patterns, and patterns of numbers, discovered by *computers*" they claim they found in the Torah. There is not one, (I repeat NOT ONE, including every legitimate Jewish Biblical Scholar at any mainline or legitimate Jewish University) ... not one legitimate Biblical Scholar in the entire world who has ANYTHING to do with this "Bible Code" bullshit). They call it "science", (because of course in 2021 "science" has to be a part of your bullshit, or no one will buy it). They're about the level of Kent Hovind. Bible Codes ... in-fucking-deed. LMAO.   ROFL2
They also have sections on "The Science of Belief". What a pile of horseshit nonsense.
"Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead." Deuteronomy 18:10-11.

Then they have a section on Anthony Flew ("the world's most famous atheist") ... LOL. I would bet most people in the US never even heard of him. He converted to DEISM, (not theism), and the book he wrote was crticized as a work, (which he basically did not write) which was due to his senility.

"In 2007 a book outlining his reasons for changing his position, There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind was written by Flew in collaboration with Roy Abraham Varghese. The book (and Flew's conversion to Deism) has been the subject of controversy, following an article in The New York Times Magazine alleging that Flew's intellect had declined due to senility, and that the book was primarily the work of Varghese; Flew himself specifically denied this, stating that the book represented his views; although he acknowledged that due to his age Varghese had done most of the actual work of writing the book."

Anyone going to them for anything is buying a load of crap, (.. yes you have to pay to attend their "seminars"). LOL

I see what the problem is here, in terms of inability to actually respond to known historical/academic questions.
He has no answers. The verbiage in the OP of this thread, ... in the attempts to limit the conversation, ... is the verbiage of an experienced debater on the subjects at hand.
He knows exactly where he will get taken, and doesn't want to go there. It did ring some bells, but I didn't realize this until I saw what Aish Discovery was all about.
I'm wondering why someone who was "frum from birth" (pious/religious) needs to go to Aish Discovery at all ?
And then from there to here ... unless it's to disingenuously introduce Aish Discovery 's agenda dishonestly into this forum.
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Quote:If a cuneiform tablet written contemporary to the time David lived was found would you come to the conclusion that all the Bible stories were true?

Of course not, D42, that's almost a silly argument.

But I will tell you this, if we had a contemporary or even virtually contemporary document (say before 40 AD) that said there  were people in Palestine who believed that a dead carpenter's son came back to life and flew up to heaven to atone for their sins after being crucified and resurrecting it would show only that people back then were a) just as gullible as these Q-Anon morons today but also b) that there was a group that believed this shit in the early first century and would therefore settle the question of whether or not jesusism dates to the early first century.  Alas, we have nothing of the sort.

But we have other anachronisms about the alleged David.

Quote:4 A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp. His height was six cubits and a span.[a] 5 He had a bronze helmet on his head and wore a coat of scale armor of bronze weighing five thousand shekels[b]; 6 on his legs he wore bronze greaves, and a bronze javelin was slung on his back. 7 His spear shaft was like a weaver’s rod, and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels.[c] His shield bearer went ahead of him.

1 Sam 17


That's actually a pretty solid representation of the kit of a Greek hoplite.

[Image: 71c3a7617eb4e95cfa22be2bb757fa2f.jpg]


Sadly for "David" and whatever phony cobbled together "Samuel" that style of fighting did not develop in Greece until somewhere between 750-650 BC which is several centuries too late for poor little David and his slingshot.   It is not unreasonable to assume that the authorship of that particular passage occurred after the author had an opportunity to observe Greek Hoplites, and there were Greek mercenaries in the army of the Egyptian King Psammetichus of the 26th Dynasty in the late 7th century BC.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-08-2021, 02:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: I see what the problem is here, in terms of inability to actually respond to known historical/academic questions.
I'm wondering why someone who was "frum from birth" (pious/religious) needs to go to Aish Discovery at all ?

I have the same question, but I can cook up a few scenarios in my head that might have resulted in the outcome of someone who was frum from birth going onto to attend a Discovery seminar. One scenario includes seminary students who attend the Discovery seminar as a part of their regular course work, which I think does happen at Aish if memory serves. (I could be wrong about that).

(03-08-2021, 02:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: And then from there to here ... unless it's to disingenuously introduce Aish Discovery 's agenda dishonestly into this forum.

What motive might GttT have had to disingenuously introduce Aish Discovery content to a forum full of atheists? (I can think of at least one, but it's a weak argument and I'd like to hear what you come up with.)
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 10:58 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: We don't need anyone doing anything for us "for ease of reading". We're all FAR FAR more educated in thiese topics that he is.

Maybe that was the point in coming here... to talk to new people who say they have knowledge that they themselves know they don't have.

It's like when a student goes to a teacher and asks.
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-08-2021, 04:16 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 02:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: I see what the problem is here, in terms of inability to actually respond to known historical/academic questions.
I'm wondering why someone who was "frum from birth" (pious/religious) needs to go to Aish Discovery at all ?

I have the same question, but I can cook up a few scenarios in my head that might have resulted in the outcome of someone who was frum from birth going onto to attend a Discovery seminar. One scenario includes seminary students who attend the Discovery seminar as a part of their regular course work, which I think does happen at Aish if memory serves. (I could be wrong about that).

(03-08-2021, 02:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: And then from there to here ... unless it's to disingenuously introduce Aish Discovery 's agenda dishonestly into this forum.

What motive might GttT have had to disingenuously introduce Aish Discovery content to a forum full of atheists? (I can think of at least one, but it's a weak argument and I'd like to hear what you come up with.)

By doing exactly what he claims he's not up to.
Like all internet nuts, he's convinced of the truth of his wonders, and thinks it can and will demonstrate the truth of his religion, in which he's "frum from birth", and unwilling and unable to actually answer any difficult questions. What motivates any religious crazy ? I hope I'm wrong, but the constraints on the discussion are "too knowing" to come from an innocent. He gave himself away.
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-08-2021, 04:43 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 04:16 AM)Aliza Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 02:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: I see what the problem is here, in terms of inability to actually respond to known historical/academic questions.
I'm wondering why someone who was "frum from birth" (pious/religious) needs to go to Aish Discovery at all ?

I have the same question, but I can cook up a few scenarios in my head that might have resulted in the outcome of someone who was frum from birth going onto to attend a Discovery seminar. One scenario includes seminary students who attend the Discovery seminar as a part of their regular course work, which I think does happen at Aish if memory serves. (I could be wrong about that).

(03-08-2021, 02:49 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: And then from there to here ... unless it's to disingenuously introduce Aish Discovery 's agenda dishonestly into this forum.

What motive might GttT have had to disingenuously introduce Aish Discovery content to a forum full of atheists? (I can think of at least one, but it's a weak argument and I'd like to hear what you come up with.)

By doing exactly what he claims he's not up to.
Like all internet nuts, he's convinced of the truth of his wonders, and thinks it can and will demonstrate the truth of his religion, in which he's "frum from birth", and unwilling and unable to actually answer any difficult questions. What motivates any religious crazy ? I hope I'm wrong, but the constraints on the discussion are "too knowing" to come from an innocent. He gave himself away.

That's an interesting point. The constraints placed on the discussion were too knowing to say that they've never debated or at least seen anything debated before. When I came to TTA, I had my guard up because of some YouTube videos showed atheists having full-blown meltdowns as they screamed at Christians and gloated over their own perceived superiority. In fact, that's why I came to TTA... I wanted to know if the angry atheist trope was real. -But getting back to the point, it seems to me that a well prepared proselytizer would be better prepared with answers to all the anticipated rebuttals.

If proselytization was the goal, a good strategy would be to review the intended audience first to see if there are any people who even qualify for outreach. A browse through the pages here might reveal only a handful of Jews to potentially convince; one of whom is already a theist. Our forum population skews a little older, but outreach organizations like Aish are not targeting older people. They're trying to community-build, not save individuals, so they put their focus on young singles who they hope will marry Jewish and raise their kids with Judaism. They're better off on social media sites, in singles gatherings, and in colleges where they'll find young adults to carry out this purpose. AD is just not good pickings for proselytization by a Jewish organization.
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 02:51 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: Hello again, this is GttT with the 7 Wonders of Jewish History (Henceforth 7WoJH). (You can skip this intro if you need). Sorry for the delay.

In order to avoid us misunderstanding each other, avoid discussions that go off on tangents, and becuase there may be confusion as most of you are coming from Christian backrounds (Judaism =/= Christianity) I will lay down some parameters of discussion. Im not really sure how much this is needed tbh, as this is my first work post here. So if Im stepping over the line and you know all this, or I wrote to much, just lmk.

Please stick to rebuttals on the topic, while there is a lot on religion to discuss, its most productive if we go one topic at a time.

First off, I do agree with the basic premise of Athiesm, which is that things are unproven, generally assumed untrue until proven true. This is because there are so many more ways the reality doesnt work, than ways it does. So if you want to posit xyz is how reality works, prove it. Next, I am not looking to be 100% sure of anything, only up until an unreasonable doubt. This is a bit of a subjective measurement, but even so, sometimes its more obvious than others, and I will do my best to be as objective as I can. In my words, if Im 80% or 90% sure of something, thats enough.

 Second, No ad hominim attacks please, or on Religious Jews (such as, 'but Jewish schools dont teach evolution, so they dont know anything!').  You may be right, you may be wrong, but either has no bearing on if Judiasm is true. No ad hominim attacks on the Torah either please (such as 'its sexist'). Again, wether right or wrong, how appealing you think it is has no bearing on how true it is. In general, I hope Im preaching to the choir (heh) here, but it is intellectual responses that prove something right or wrong, not emotional ones. 

Third, No rebuttals from bible criticism that axiomatically assume the Torah is manmade. (such as, but 'we know it wasnt written by God, since we know the Torah is manmade'. Or 'yeah but judiasm isnt true, cause the jews got their idea of God from the babylonians'). No, we dont know those, much of that field and their conclusions is based on archeology, which is far from a hard science. To be clear about what I mean, I am willing to consider that the Torah is manmade of course, and willing to accept historical events rebuttal, from bible criticism. But to say something like 'we know that the jews got their God from the neighboring tribes, cause obviously they didnt get it from God 'Himself' ', and then later say 'See, we know the Torah isnt true because they got it from the Neighboring tribes' is circular reasoning.

I dont think it makes no sense for the Torah to be true if it describes God doing things the break the laws of nature. If God does exist and made the universe, of course 'He' could play with its laws. 
Also, no dogmatic axiom that materialism is true. To get to the Truth (heh), you have to be at least willing to consider that God and spirituality exist.
Rebuttals that destroy the Christian position on a matter don't necessarily mean that matter is wrong; Christianity and its views do not represent Judaism. 
Honestly, even if they look similar on the surface, Judaism really is pretty different.


Naturally Contradictory: Where one phenomena makes it naturally less likely the other will occur. Not impossible, and if it does happen, it will happen through natural means. But it is a lot less likely an outcome because of the first phenomena. (I.e. Being severely dehydrated is naturally contradictory to winning a footrace. It can happen, and if it does, it will happen through natural means (aka, you literally just ran faster), but still winning that race is a lot less likely when one is severely dehydrated.)

Naturally Unlikely is just what it sounds like, and outcome you would not expect, or one that is unlikely in a natural world. Again, It can happen, and if it does, it will happen through natural means, but its unlikely. (i.e. In general, smaller people are naturally unlikely to win fights.) Often, a naturally contradicting phenomena can make an unlikely event even more unlikely. (i.e. being severely dehydrated makes it even less likely a small person will win a fight.)


NOW THE PROOF. YOU CAN SKIP TO HERE IF THE ABOVE IS UNNECESSARY TO SAY.


The basic structure of this proof is that the Torah predicted these highly unlikely often naturally contradictory phenomena to happen to the jewish people across history, and they did. Additionally the prophecy itself is (often) suprising and unlikely if it was in a manmade religion. 
The predictions were made at a minimum of 2500 years ago, before any of these events take place.
Enough of this, and the unlikelyness builds to where it makes no sense that it would naturally occur in an unguided materialistic world, and really only makes sense if the same entity that wrote those predictions could also control history. aka God.

Some of these phenomena have happened to other nations/cultures as well (I.e. The Hellenistic Greeks had a similar cultural/educational impact on the world,) but all 7 happened to the jews. The difference between one (or even 2) unlikely phenomena happening to you, even ones that you guessed/predicted right, and 7 is a vast gulf in unlikeliness. So it isnt just about one or 2 wonders, but all of them happening as a whole. Especially when you add them together and many naturally contradict each other, yet they all still happened.


Im going to skip to the 2nd wonder here actually (which is more like 2 itself tbh, but it was been combined into one bigger one). Also I am trying to make the post as short as possible, so i may need to go back and add details later.

Exile/Scattering/Wandering. 
The Scattering of the Jews happened to a pretty high degree, and is pretty unlikely I think. In the initial diaspora of the 2nd temple, the jews were scattered (after and during the exile itself) to almost all of the (then) civilized world; all over the roman empire, to places in Mesopotamia, and upper africa. In the medieval peroid ish to almost all of Europe, the Muslim world, and a few more parts of Africa. In more modern times, North America, South America, more parts of asia, and Australia. 
The Jews have also been kept wandering; tons of expulsions from places they were living, then later coming back when reinvited. Persecution have driven tons of jews to move, large migrations to lands of more opportunity. The Jews have been kept on the move a ton. (On a national scale. For a person, to live in one place for 100 years is pretty sedentary, but on a national scale, a community that only exists 100 years in one place before it must pick itself up and move again is pretty mobile.)
The exile is also rare. Exile less so than Scaterring and Wandering to the extreme degree as the Jews have done, but still not that common. Usually the native population is killed, subjugated and brought into the empire, or restricted to one corner of their lands. and the jews were exiled 1.5 times (the .5 is the 2nd temple exile; only a half, cause only half of the jewish nation was there to be specifically exiled.), which is even rarer.
All of these are pretty rare (and therefore naturally unlikely) to happen to a nation, especially all 3. And yet they were predicted in the Torah, and in fact happened.
As well as I would think the prophecy itself is a little unlikely to happen/me made, if one is manufacturing a religion.

So very clearly you have a huge amount of debate experience.
I seriously doubt you just went to Aish Discovery out of the blue to innocently ask them a question, as you have protrayed this.
Care to tell us where you debate, with whom, under what name(s), and about which subjects so we can see what you're really all about, before we waste any more time on you ?
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-08-2021, 03:35 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:If a cuneiform tablet written contemporary to the time David lived was found would you come to the conclusion that all the Bible stories were true?

Of course not, D42, that's almost a silly argument.

But I will tell you this, if we had a contemporary or even virtually contemporary document (say before 40 AD) that said there  were people in Palestine who believed that a dead carpenter's son came back to life and flew up to heaven to atone for their sins after being crucified and resurrecting it would show only that people back then were a) just as gullible as these Q-Anon morons today but also b) that there was a group that believed this shit in the early first century and would therefore settle the question of whether or not jesusism dates to the early first century.  Alas, we have nothing of the sort.

But we have other anachronisms about the alleged David.

Quote:4 A champion named Goliath, who was from Gath, came out of the Philistine camp. His height was six cubits and a span.[a] 5 He had a bronze helmet on his head and wore a coat of scale armor of bronze weighing five thousand shekels[b]; 6 on his legs he wore bronze greaves, and a bronze javelin was slung on his back. 7 His spear shaft was like a weaver’s rod, and its iron point weighed six hundred shekels.[c] His shield bearer went ahead of him.

1 Sam 17


That's actually a pretty solid representation of the kit of a Greek hoplite.

[Image: 71c3a7617eb4e95cfa22be2bb757fa2f.jpg]


Sadly for "David" and whatever phony cobbled together "Samuel" that style of fighting did not develop in Greece until somewhere between 750-650 BC which is several centuries too late for poor little David and his slingshot.   It is not unreasonable to assume that the authorship of that particular passage occurred after the author had an opportunity to observe Greek Hoplites, and there were Greek mercenaries in the army of the Egyptian King Psammetichus of the 26th Dynasty in the late 7th century BC.

Yup, people are gullible and love to believe in pixie dust. It makes them feel all fuzzy and warm I guess.   I mentioned the Miracle at Fatima in my previous post.  There are photos of thousands of people staring at the sky watching the sun dance around in the sky.   The whole thing is crazy.   This is a little off topic but in a way it isn't.   Here we have contemporary accounts of people seeing the sun dance and spin around in the sky but 50 miles away in Lisbon, Portugal people went about their business as usual and in 1917 there were astronomers around the world who saw nothing unusual in the sky.   It goes to show you that even contemporary accounts of miracles are meaningless so I don't get all ....what's that fun word...."verklempt"..... if a slab of stone has "House of David" written on it and it's proven to be the David from the Bible. Just my take on it.  

If you haven't seen this nutty video.......wow people are stupid.  It might turn your stomach so have a barf bag handy.

                                                         T4618
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
These are the well established views of someone whose beliefs are firmly and definitively established, who has defended them many times in debates.
They are not the views of someone "searching for the truth". This bullshit reeks of someone who came here dishonestly.  >>>>

Quote:First off, I do agree with the basic premise of Atheism, which is that things are unproven, generally assumed untrue until proven true. This is because there are so many more ways the reality doesn't work, than ways it does. So if you want to posit xyz is how reality works, prove it. Next, I am not looking to be 100% sure of anything, only up until an unreasonable doubt. This is a bit of a subjective measurement, but even so, sometimes its more obvious than others, and I will do my best to be as objective as I can. In my words, if Im 80% or 90% sure of something, that's enough.

Second, No ad hominim (it's actually spelled ad hominem) attacks please, or on Religious Jews (such as, 'but Jewish schools don't teach evolution, so they don't know anything!').  You may be right, you may be wrong, but either has no bearing on if Judaism is true. No ad hominim attacks on the Torah either please (such as 'its sexist'). Again, wether right or wrong, how appealing you think it is has no bearing on how true it is. In general, I hope Im preaching to the choir (heh) here, but it is intellectual responses that prove something right or wrong, not emotional ones.

Actually you're totally wrong. If your holy books are true, and if Judaism is true, and Judaism does not accept Evolution, then the entire enterprise is false.
But it does demonstrate things you have encountered in your many debates, doesn't it ?

Quote:Third, No rebuttals from bible criticism that axiomatically assume the Torah is manmade. (such as, but 'we know it wasnt written by God, since we know the Torah is manmade'. Or 'yeah but judiasm isnt true, cause the jews got their idea of God from the babylonians'). No, we dont know those, much of that field and their conclusions is based on archeology, which is far from a hard science. To be clear about what I mean, I am willing to consider that the Torah is manmade of course, and willing to accept historical events rebuttal, from bible criticism. But to say something like 'we know that the jews got their God from the neighboring tribes, cause obviously they didnt get it from God 'Himself' ', and then later say 'See, we know the Torah isnt true because they got it from the Neighboring tribes' is circular reasoning.

How many times have you debated those points you hold so FIRMLY ? You're not questioning anything. That's actually not an example of circular reasoning. You should take a Logic class. The Logic may or may not be correct, (and no one actuallys says that), but it's not circular. More things he's obviously encountered in his many debates.


Quote:I dont think it makes no sense for the Torah to be true if it describes God doing things the break the laws of nature. If God does exist and made the universe, of course 'He' could play with its laws.

More firmly held beliefs. If your deity really were the creator of the universe, it could do anything it wanted. There are countless examples of your deity doing exactly that. Have you never read it ?

Quote: Also, no dogmatic axiom that materialism is true. To get to the Truth (heh), you have to be at least willing to consider that God and spirituality exist.

This one is the kicker, the dead giveaway. Sounds like SteveII.
LOL. The words of an absolutely committed theist, very well versed in debate and religious language and concepts, and generally accepted and often used debate "lingo".

You're a fraud buddy. A total fraud. Masquerading as someone who is questioning in order to get your *Wonders* onto this forum. 
Is your god so fucking weak and absent that you need to compromise your integrity to weasel your way onto atheist fora ? 

BTW, your spelling/grammar are atrocious. Are you too dim-witted to use a spell-checker ? Maybe Santa can bring you one.
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(03-07-2021, 04:20 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: Ok guys, I just spend 3.5 hours reading everyones replies and taking notes on the relevant ones.

How exactly do your rate the "relevant" responses—I note that you've not replied to my
comments. Why can't you respond to more than (apparently) the mere half dozen you've
listed?  I can make concise responses to 6 posts in an hour—which you claim is all the daily
time you have.

Quote:Of the relevant replies, I have about
2 of Dancefortwo
8 from Buckyball,
2 intresting ones from Deesse23,
another couple from Mordant,
2 from Aliza
and a few others that I want to think about.

Uh... exactly how long is it gonna take you to "think" about your responses?

Quote:I have no way to make you guys think well of me if you don't want to...

Well... the best way for you to encourage us to "think well" of you is to start by actually
responding to a few of our comments by explaining what you mean or defending your claims.
You can't expect to simply drop into a forum as a newbie—particularly as a theist in an
atheist forum!—and be immediately respected by all those around you LOL.

Quote:...but remember, any mistake or omission I make will only be to my detriment, since I want to get to the truth, and I'm not trying to proselytize you.

I asked you earlier on as to whose "truth" exactly you wanted "to get to" and you avoided
the question. Yours personally?   Jewish; Catholic; Protestant; Muslim; or even atheist?  
They're all different.    What parameters do you  use for assessing a truth?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 02:51 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: Some of these phenomena have happened to other nations/cultures as well (I.e. The Hellenistic Greeks had a similar cultural/educational impact on the world,) but all 7 happened to the jews. The difference between one (or even 2) unlikely phenomena happening to you, even ones that you guessed/predicted right, and 7 is a vast gulf in unlikeliness. So it isnt just about one or 2 wonders, but all of them happening as a whole. Especially when you add them together and many naturally contradict each other, yet they all still happened.

This isn't how probability works. If the events are independent, the improbability is not additive. None of these events necessarily had to happen for you to have 7 wonders. Thus it is the improbability of 7 improbable things happening--any 7 improbable things--and that's extremely low. I believe offhand it would be something like taking the improbability of all but 6 events, inverting that (assuming less than 7 improbable events occurred), multiplying that out and doing the same for 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1. The unlikelihood of 7 unlikely events happening is infinitesimally small. Consider my own life. Is it highly unlikely that 7 unlikely events, any 7, have occurred in my life? No.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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Since the OP keeps teasing that he's going to use his very valuable and limited time to respond in "a few hours" (which, much like the concept of time in the Torah, apparently means "a few days"), I'm just going to leave this here.

Actual predictive "prophecy" is NOT this:

Quote:And I will establish my covenant between me and you, and your descendants after you, throughout the generations. An eternal covenant to be your God, and the God of the descendants after you.

(^^^ The "first wonder")

Any actual prediction has to be totally unambiguous as to how and when it is fulfilled. Some observations here:

1) An "eternal" covenant is inherently unverifiable as it's completely open-ended. You'd have to live forever to verify it, and then it's subject to infinite regress.

2) The only agreement here in any case is an offer to "be you and you're descendent's god in perpetuity". There is no national identity guarantee, no cultural guarantee, not even a religious continuity to it. It is just that god will never withdraw the offer to be available to worship. This will be assertable as true basically no matter what happens or doesn't happen in the future, so the prediction is utterly meaningless. But those claiming this has come to pass do it on the basis of the Jews remaining "a distinct people" without defining "distinct". I mean, I'm Luxembourgish ... Luxemburgers have remained a "distinct people" to this day. So what? These things are true until they aren't, particularly when badly defined.

This is the pattern with passages in holy writ that are alleged to be fulfilled prophecy (or, indeed, even unfulfilled prophecy). You have predictions of the general form:

Quote:In the latter days I will smite the land with pestilence and it will be truly horrible

Then at SOME point in history there is an epidemic or famine or natural disaster or combination thereof which is post-hoc pointed to as "fulfillment".

REAL predictions would look much more like this:

Quote:In the two thousand and twentieth year after the birth of Jesus the Messiah, a worldwide disease will kill 2.5 million people in its first year.

This has some meat on its bones. It is confined to a particular year in human history and has a measurable outcome. If it happens in 2022 or kills 2 or 4 million people than it is not fulfilled. If it happens in 2020 and kills 2.5 million then it IS fulfilled. Bonus points if it describes the symptoms and the worldwide impact.

THIS is the sort of thing we'd have to see penned two millennia ago to impress us that the author was given some kind of insight into the actual future.

And think of how it would convince unbelievers to be able to point to specific, quantifiable fulfillments of predictions made in the long ago! But theists can't do that, as there ARE no specific quantifiable predictions. There are vague predictions highly subject to individual interpretation. Doesn't count.
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-08-2021, 06:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: So very clearly you have a huge amount of debate experience.

I'm not sure that the opening post betrays "huge" amounts of debate experience. It does betray knowledge of the polarization that's to come, but GttT may have been prepped for that in some way (possibly by watching YouTube videos of atheists behaving horribly in debates). I am inclined to agree that at least some knowledge of atheist/theist debates is revealed through OP.


(03-08-2021, 06:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: I seriously doubt you just went to Aish Discovery out of the blue to innocently ask them a question, as you have protrayed this.  

I don't see anything where it says GttT wandered into their local Aish center with a question in mind and was offered this explanation. They describe themselves as a student at Aish and it seems perfectly plausible that they encountered the information during their time at Aish.

I also don't see why this is unlikely. Aish may have gone to GttT's school, sent flyers, email blasts, or even just sent a representative to the Jewish Center, GttT's synagogue, or anywhere else where Aish reps know Jews hang out in GttT's city... whatever to generate interest and get people to attend. That's what they do.

GttT could also be a full-time student at Aish, and these classes were available and interesting so they were added to the list of classes to take.

GttT could be a busy professional and/or parent and attended a Discovery class to socialize with adults.

Where I think there's the possibility of deception is if GttT is concealing their motive. Maybe they're a secretly practicing Christian and they're learning Jewish teachings to improve their proselytizing skills. If this was the case, then indeed they are likely here to beef up their apologetics and they would not be interested in limiting the scope of potential converts to just Jews.   We can probably rule this possibility out pretty quickly with a question: @Get_to_the_Truth do you  Heart Jesus?

You know what they say... Anything is possible with Jesus.  Dodgy

(03-08-2021, 06:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Care to tell us where you debate, with whom, under what name(s), and about which subjects so we can see what you're really all about, before we waste any more time on you ?

@Get_to_the_Truth, this is a request from a user not a staff member. We don't normally ask for a newbie's debate resume, and you are under no obligation or even expectation to provide these details. 
(If you want to, then great!)
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-08-2021, 08:07 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: This one is the kicker, the dead giveaway. Sounds like SteveII.
LOL. The words of an absolutely committed theist, very well versed in debate and religious language and concepts, and generally accepted and often used debate "lingo".

If this is SteveII, then their theist/atheist debate skills will not be sufficient because they'll also have to be fluent enough in observant Jewish lingo. I don't think SteveII has a Jewish background, and that's a tall order. Masquerading as someone from a totally different culture would take an extensive amount of time dedicated to the purpose. They could get easily tripped up by using a word incorrectly, like not knowing the plural for "rabbi," for example, or being unfamiliar with the rituals of being Jewish. 

Googling that stuff to keep up the ruse would get exhausting and sooner than later, I think they'd trip up.
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-08-2021, 01:26 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 02:51 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: Some of these phenomena have happened to other nations/cultures as well (I.e. The Hellenistic Greeks had a similar cultural/educational impact on the world,) but all 7 happened to the jews. The difference between one (or even 2) unlikely phenomena happening to you, even ones that you guessed/predicted right, and 7 is a vast gulf in unlikeliness. So it isnt just about one or 2 wonders, but all of them happening as a whole. Especially when you add them together and many naturally contradict each other, yet they all still happened.

This isn't how probability works.  If the events are independent, the improbability is not additive.  None of these events necessarily had to happen for you to have 7 wonders.  Thus it is the improbability of 7 improbable things happening--any 7 improbable things--and that's extremely low.  I believe offhand it would be something like taking the improbability of all but 6 events, inverting that (assuming less than 7 improbable events occurred), multiplying that out and doing the same for 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1.  The likelihood of 7 unlikely events happening is infinitesimally small.  Consider my own life.  Is it highly unlikely that 7 unlikely events, any 7, have occurred in my life?  No.

According to Aish.com, is is not the improbability (thus requiring a deity's intervention) of the events themselves, but the fact that they were predicted that is wondrous. https://www.aish.com/jl/h/h/48965856.html

This is the falacy (as I pointed out above) of prophesy as prediction. Deuteronomy forbade omen reading and divination. That's what they're doing. Reading omens, and interpreting things that "could be" predictions as if they actually were.
He has failed to establish there is a connection between the events. Each of them is an independent event, and is basically an interpretation of various demographic trends and processes, ... they are not actually "events" (which can very easily be interpreted in another, or many other ways.) The premise of all this is bogus and highly biased. And of course the proposed cause of the events has not been demonstrated, but in fact is the argument from ignorance (falacy). No deity has been shown to be a cause, and of course (as always) it just happens to be their deity.

In any case, the argument doesn't get more circular than this :
"Our series of events, which we claim to be unlikely, proves our religion/deity is *true* because only our deity could cause our series of events."
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(03-08-2021, 02:52 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 08:07 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: This one is the kicker, the dead giveaway. Sounds like SteveII.
LOL. The words of an absolutely committed theist, very well versed in debate and religious language and concepts, and generally accepted and often used debate "lingo".

If this is SteveII, then their theist/atheist debate skills will not be sufficient because they'll also have to be fluent enough in observant Jewish lingo. I don't think SteveII has a Jewish background, and that's a tall order. Masquerading as someone from a totally different culture would take an extensive amount of time dedicated to the purpose. They could get easily tripped up by using a word incorrectly, like not knowing the plural for "rabbi," for example, or being unfamiliar with the rituals of being Jewish. 

Googling that stuff to keep up the ruse would get exhausting and sooner than later, I think they'd trip up.

I never said it was SteveII. I said the very use of that string of words *sounds* like SteveII ... a debater with a great deal of experience.
"dogmatic axiom that materialism is true" ... those are the words of a HIGHLY experienced, sophisticated debater, with an established set of theistic beliefs.
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(03-08-2021, 02:38 PM)Aliza Wrote: Where I think there's the possibility of deception is if GttT is concealing their motive. Maybe they're a secretly practicing Christian and they're learning Jewish teachings to improve their proselytizing skills.

[Image: f591e3fc986246a41f322c9cc0d6824c.gif]

Big Grin
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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(03-08-2021, 03:00 PM)Vera Wrote:
(03-08-2021, 02:38 PM)Aliza Wrote: Where I think there's the possibility of deception is if GttT is concealing their motive. Maybe they're a secretly practicing Christian and they're learning Jewish teachings to improve their proselytizing skills.

[Image: f591e3fc986246a41f322c9cc0d6824c.gif]

Big Grin

That's okay, Vera. I'm going to keep that tin foil hat on for a little longer because I have a theory that you're working for your government to convince us all to move to Bulgaria. I hear you guys need STEM people, so be advised that your target population has been identified.
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Lots of talk about history, but not even necessary. The logic here is actually pretty simple: The odds of a religion where humans are the "main characters" of the universe being true, is next to none. And not only humans, but a specific subset of humans? As much as my Jewish DNA would appreciate being God's chosen child, the notion is laughable.

There are billions of galaxies in the universe with 100 billion stars per galaxy. There are over 700 QUINTILLION planets in the universe. But sure, we're God's children made in his image and the seventh most important thing in all of life is "don't fuck somebody else's wife?"

I don't think so buddy.
[Image: nL4L1haz_Qo04rZMFtdpyd1OZgZf9NSnR9-7hAWT...dc2a24480e]

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