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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
#76

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 01:37 AM)Chas Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 11:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 10:07 PM)mordant Wrote: In other words, the world hasn't been unable to reject a monolithic, immutable Judaism; Judaism has in fact adapted to a hostile world.

Judaism adapted itself to a changing world. The second temple was destroyed by, and Jerusalem was destroyed because of, stupid leaders who did not get that Rome was superior. They "adapted" to nothing.

They went from "Keep holy the Sabaath" to arguing about whether the creator of the universe cares about whether they flip on a lightswitch on Saturday.

After we get through this infantile portion of the discussion, maybe we can get on to the real substantive discussion. Even if Judaism is not literally "true", and there is no question about that, is it one of the religious traditions of the world, which if honored either for family tradition reasons, or some other personal reason, can assist in leading a good life, for those who find use in that ? The answer just might be "yes" for some, ... but certainly not in the context in which this thread presented it as "the truth".

The answer is no.  Why?  Circumcision. Deadpan Coffee Drinker


Even that barbarity was borrowed from Egypt.  IIRC there is a scene depicting circumcision on a tomb painting from the Old Kingdom.  




(also bacon)
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#77

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Circumcision was common all over Canaan in the ancient Near East.
It was not unique to Israel, (as also, was the cultural practice of the avoidance of eating pork).
Religion sanctions culture, (historically). Culture doesn't sanction religion.

It occurred to me this "Wonder" thing is basically a circular (falacy) argument.
The only common theme uniting the wondrous events, is that their god must be the real diety, causing them.

*Wondrous events happened to us because our religion is the true one, thus must have the deity that causes wondrous events.*
I am the Lord thy Dog. Thou shalt have no other dogs before me.
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#78

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 02:51 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: Hello again, this is GttT with the 7 Wonders of Jewish History (Henceforth 7WoJH). (You can skip this intro if you need). Sorry for the delay.

Firstly GttT, thank you for taking the time and making the effort to post your views
on Judaism.  I must let you know I haven't had the time or inclination to read all of
the responses to this opening thread; 75 comments and rebuttals in all to date.  (I often
bold parts of quoted comments to clarify specifically what I'm talking about.)

Quote:In order to avoid us misunderstanding each other, avoid discussions that go off on tangents, and because there may be confusion as most of you are coming from Christian backgrounds (Judaism =/= Christianity)...

Erroneous assertion; I for one (and there are others here) who're definitely not coming
from a Christian or Jewish, or theist background.
 
Quote:...I will lay down some parameters of discussion.

Sorry, but you simply can't do this.  Atheist Discussion is open to all members on an equal
footing such that none of us has to right of laying  down any rules.

Quote:Please stick to rebuttals on the topic, while there is a lot on religion to discuss, its most
productive if we go one topic at a time.

Whilst this is encouraged, it's not your place to demand it.  You're not permitted to memberate.

Quote:First off, I do agree with the basic premise of Atheism, which is that things are unproven, generally assumed untrue until proven true.

Okay... You've just described what it means to be agnostic, not atheistic. I'm not sure that you
do  understand what atheism is all about at all, as you've wrongly defined it.

Quote:This is because there are so many more ways the reality doesn't work, than ways it does. So if you want to posit xyz is how reality works, prove it. Next, I am not looking to be 100% sure of anything, only up until an unreasonable doubt. This is a bit of a subjective measurement, but even so, sometimes its more obvious than others, and I will do my best to be as objective as I can. In my words, if I'm 80% or 90% sure of something, that's enough.

This is just a meaningless word salad.  And if you're only certain of something to a minimum 80% chance,
then that something is unlikely to be factual or extant.

Quote:Second, No ad hominem attacks please, or on Religious Jews (such as, 'but Jewish schools don't teach evolution, so they don't know anything!').

Ad hominem attacks are permitted on this forum (although personally I disagree with this ruling).
And if I feel like criticising Jews or Catholics, or Anglicans or Muslims, or their dogma, then I'll do
so without fear or favour.  And on the subject of evolution; any/all religions that don't teach it from
day one are to be roundly condemned.

Quote:Third, No rebuttals from bible criticism that axiomatically assume the Torah is manmade. (such as, but 'we know it wasn't written by God, since we know the Torah is manmade').

Of course the Torah was written be men.  God and/or gods simply don't exist in the real world. This
is supported by the simple fact that in thousands of years, not one single piece of empirical evidence
has ever been known to support this antiquated notion.  Gods are simply mythical fantasy figures
drawn from the fertile minds of ill-educated, scientifically-unenlightened primitives from antiquity.

Quote:I don't think it makes no sense for the Torah to be true if it describes God doing things the break the laws of nature. If God does exist and made the universe, of course 'He' could play with its laws.

This is just nonsensical.  Before you propose that gods could play with the laws of nature, you must
of necessity provide evidence that supernatural entities actually exist.  This has never been done over
a span of millennia.  It's nothing more than wishful thinking.

Quote:Also, no dogmatic axiom that materialism is true. To get to the Truth (heh), you have to be at least willing to consider that God and spirituality exist.

No.  As a lifelong atheist, I most definitely do not  need to be "willing" to concede that supernatural
entities and paranormal phenomena exist in the real world.  Both rely on absurd illogicality.

Quote:Naturally Contradictory: Where one phenomena makes it naturally less likely the other will occur. Not impossible, and if it does happen, it will happen through natural means. But it is a lot less likely an outcome because of the first phenomena. (I.e. Being severely dehydrated is naturally contradictory to winning a footrace. It can happen, and if it does, it will happen through natural means (aka, you literally just ran faster), but still winning that race is a lot less likely when one is severely dehydrated.)

Another meaningless word salad.

Quote:Naturally Unlikely is just what it sounds like, and outcome you would not expect, or one that is unlikely in a natural world. Again, It can happen, and if it does, it will happen through natural means, but its unlikely. (i.e. In general, smaller people are naturally unlikely to win fights.) Often, a naturally contradicting phenomena can make an unlikely event even more unlikely. (i.e. being severely dehydrated makes it even less likely a small person will win a fight.)

Another meaningless word salad.

Quote:The predictions were made at a minimum of 2500 years ago, before any of these events take place.

Nope.  No holy book has ever made a single proven, so-called prediction that's come to fruition.  End of story.

Quote:As well as I would think the prophecy itself is a little unlikely to happen/be made, if one is manufacturing a religion.

All religions per se were/are in fact "manufactured". By ignorant, fearful, superstitious men, or
gold-diggers like Jim Jones, Asahara Shoko, Marshall Applewhite, David Koresh, or Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh.

Finally, it's been estimated that since recorded history 195,035,000 people have been killed due to
religions—either directly as victims or in a cause in the name of their religion. Today for example, look
at the Bosnian war, the Sudan genocide, the Israel-Palestine conflict, or the Hindu-Muslim conflict in India
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#79

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 02:51 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: Third, No rebuttals from bible criticism that axiomatically assume the Torah is manmade. (such as, but 'we know it wasnt written by God, since we know the Torah is manmade'. Or 'yeah but judiasm isnt true, cause the jews got their idea of God from the babylonians'). 

So you want a discussion on jewish holy books which studiously denies the truth.  Got it.
Factio Republicanus delenda est!
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#80

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 03:22 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: There's zero proof that the exodus happened.  It's a myth.   Moses did not write the first five books of the Torah, Judean priests did.   Moses is a mythical character.  Archaeologists found that whoever wrote the first five books has the kings of Edom in the wrong order and they were not "kings" but generals of a city-state sort of an affair.

Archaeology also found that Joshua and Walls of Jericho tumbling down is a myth.   It didn't happen. 

YAWH was originally a Canaanite deity, one of about 200 gods.  He was a war and mountain-wind god and archaeologists suspect he was also worshipped by the Canaanites in the mines of Timna as a god of mettalurgy similar to the Greek god, Hephaestus.   After the Canaanites moved out of the area ancient Hebrew tribes adopted YHWH into their culture as their mountain deity.  There's a reason mythical Moses goes up a mountain to get the 10 commandments.

Solomon may have existed but his role was highly exaggerated in the Bible.  Archaeologists may have found his famous horse stables which the Bible claims held something like 40 thousand chariot horses but what they found held only about 50 horses.  

The Bible is embellished storytelling and family lore.  Every culture has a book of prophecy or storytelling that claims it predicts the future.  The Chinese have a book that they claim predicted WW I and II.   The Greeks used the Oracle at Delphi to predict the future and it worked very well for them because they could interpret the oracles to fit the prediction however they wanted.  People do the same thing with the Bible.  It's all a bunch of confirmation bias mixed in with a large dollup of hooey. 

So there.

Archaeology also found that there were no jews as would be understood by jewish religious teachings on Egypt at the time of the supposed exodus and archaelogy and written records show that during the period that Moses supposedly led the jews to the holy land, Iudea was a part of Egypt with multiple garrisons and forts manned by Egyptian troops.  And for the final nail in the coffin, both archaeology and genetics show that the jews were simply a sub-grouping of the Caananites who worshipped the same gods, had the same ritual practices, had the same societal make up but (and this is the sole difference) who didn't eat any pig based products.
Factio Republicanus delenda est!
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#81

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 03:24 PM)Dom Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 03:22 PM)Szuchow Wrote: You don't get to dictate how others can respond to your posts.

Also till you provide evidence for existence of your tribal deity then I see absolutely no reason to assume that some particular "holy" book is anything other than man-made.

Please help him understand what you see wrong with his wonders. He wants to know. He may agree with you. He has an open mind.

He doesn't want to know. He wants to shove his "revealed truth" down our throats and force us to conform to his beliefs.
Factio Republicanus delenda est!
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#82

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 03:52 PM)abaris Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 03:49 PM)Szuchow Wrote: So perhaps op is an exception.

Yeah, and maybe he's a Marsian. Have you thought about that? Or might it be possible that he really just wants to discuss and seek an outside view?

If he were reaching out he wouldn't have tried pre-limiting discussion to us saying "Yes oh great and wise GttT, you are totally correct.  Where can I sign up to your totally true religion?"  Why else do you think he so heavily circumscribed the parameters of our discussion, especially trying to forbid the rest of us from pointing out where the jewish holy books are just plain fantasy?
Factio Republicanus delenda est!
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#83

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 04:01 PM)abaris Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 03:59 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: That's one of the things I admire about the Jews.  They don't threaten to lop off people's heads as the Muslims do or threaten people with eternal torture.

There are 13 or 14 million jews in the whole wide world, as opposed to 2,4 billion christians and 1,4 billion muslims. With good reason, because they never tried to convert anyone.

That's bs right there.  What about the Khazars, or the various Arabic tribes around Yemen and Mecca (hence why when the first Arab conquerors entered into Jerusalem they were described by locals as being jewish in religion, they followed the jewish laws, customs and religious rites), or the Ethiopian jews or even the Varangian Rus' who nearly went jewish in the early 1000s (at the time the local ruler had representatives of the three Abrahamic religion present their cases and while the rabbis most cogently argued their religion, the orthodox priests had the best architecture which finally swung it for them).  There were also jewish proselytizers working as far away as Mongol China in the 1200s.

Judaism up until the crusades was as willing to convert others as christianity and islam, the only difference being that it didn't have any armies behind it to make conversions stick, or in the end, maintain it's independence to proselytise.
Factio Republicanus delenda est!
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#84

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Nice. This has turned into an educational thread for me. I know next to nothing about this religion, I had a non-practicing Jewish uncle who had a most wonderful sense of humor, my best friend in high school was being raised frum, and in California we were close friends with a Jewish family from Israel and were invited to their son's coming of age ceremony. 

So, I have been exposed to the culture, but I have never read the religious texts, other than the first testament when I was a kid. So, this thread is interesting to me, and what I was hoping to see here. Since I have nothing to add, I am just reading here. 

I am always impressed by how well so many atheists are versed in the various religions. I can spend maybe 10 minutes reading religious texts, then I go "ugh" and stop. But when presented from a historical or archeological view point, I am suddenly interested. Not enough to pick up books on it, but certainly enough to spend my morning coffee time reading about it here.
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#85

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 01:06 PM)Brian Shanahan Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 03:22 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: There's zero proof that the exodus happened.  It's a myth.   Moses did not write the first five books of the Torah, Judean priests did.   Moses is a mythical character.  Archaeologists found that whoever wrote the first five books has the kings of Edom in the wrong order and they were not "kings" but generals of a city-state sort of an affair.

Archaeology also found that Joshua and Walls of Jericho tumbling down is a myth.   It didn't happen. 

YAWH was originally a Canaanite deity, one of about 200 gods.  He was a war and mountain-wind god and archaeologists suspect he was also worshipped by the Canaanites in the mines of Timna as a god of mettalurgy similar to the Greek god, Hephaestus.   After the Canaanites moved out of the area ancient Hebrew tribes adopted YHWH into their culture as their mountain deity.  There's a reason mythical Moses goes up a mountain to get the 10 commandments.

Solomon may have existed but his role was highly exaggerated in the Bible.  Archaeologists may have found his famous horse stables which the Bible claims held something like 40 thousand chariot horses but what they found held only about 50 horses.  

The Bible is embellished storytelling and family lore.  Every culture has a book of prophecy or storytelling that claims it predicts the future.  The Chinese have a book that they claim predicted WW I and II.   The Greeks used the Oracle at Delphi to predict the future and it worked very well for them because they could interpret the oracles to fit the prediction however they wanted.  People do the same thing with the Bible.  It's all a bunch of confirmation bias mixed in with a large dollup of hooey. 

So there.

Archaeology also found that there were no jews as would be understood by jewish religious teachings on Egypt at the time of the supposed exodus and archaelogy and written records show that during the period that Moses supposedly led the jews to the holy land, Iudea was a part of Egypt with multiple garrisons and forts manned by Egyptian troops.  And for the final nail in the coffin, both archaeology and genetics show that the jews were simply a sub-grouping of the Caananites who worshipped the same gods, had the same ritual practices, had the same societal make up but (and this is the sole difference) who didn't eat any pig based products.

Also, the Sinai Desert is not that large.  It's a long thin desert but even at that one person can walk the entire length of it in around two and a half weeks.  It's impossible to think that two million people wandered around in it for 40 years.
                                                         T4618
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#86

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 03:24 PM)Dom Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 03:22 PM)Szuchow Wrote: You don't get to dictate how others can respond to your posts.

Also till you provide evidence for existence of your tribal deity then I see absolutely no reason to assume that some particular "holy" book is anything other than man-made.

Please help him understand what you see wrong with his wonders. He wants to know. He may agree with you. He has an open mind.

OP wanted to "lay out the parameters of discussion". That doesn't strike me as "having an open mind" if OP requires they control the narrative.
God is confined only to those parts of the universe we do not know about, and that keeps shrinking. 
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#87

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Quote: This is because there are so many more ways the reality doesn't work, than ways it does. So if you want to posit xyz is how reality works, prove it. Next, I am not looking to be 100% sure of anything, only up until an unreasonable doubt. This is a bit of a subjective measurement, but even so, sometimes its more obvious than others, and I will do my best to be as objective as I can. In my words, if I'm 80% or 90% sure of something, that's enough.

Nope nope and nope. The burden of proof is on YOU to demonstrate that what you are claiming is true. Nice try though.
YOU are claiming you know which religion is true, based on a series of events that you have no connection for, which are cherry-picked, biased, and only a tiny part of the complete story.
That is dishonest.
Religions are about faith. If you need "80 or 90%" you're on a fool's errand, and don't at this point even understand what religions are about. This (80% to 90 %) appears to be based on a misunderstanding of how Bayesian Probability works.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayesian_probability There are no probability numbers to assign to any of the 7 Wonder events, (all of which are implied to be VERY SMALL), thus the logic of this argument, in which the Bayesian result will also be very SMALL, and could not ever even approach 10 %, is totally screwed up.

There is not one shred of evidence for any of the gods. That's how reality works. Zero. Zip. Nada.
Just as you totally screwed up what an "ad hominem" is (it's Latin for "to the man)" ... ie not a *thing*, ie it's not possible to do an ad hominem to the Torah) you screwed up the "reasonable doubt" thing. "Reasonable doubt" (not unreasonable doubt) is a *legal* standard, and does not apply to discussions such as this. If you accept something up to an "unreasonable doubt" (basically a double negative), that means you accept it. If you have a coach here, (and I suspect you do) tell them they're falling down on the job. In this universe, Reality is not fundamentally intuitively true. Relativity, Uncertainty, the math of Dirac, Quantum Mechanics do not initially appear to human brains to be logical. Therefore you need evidence. And you have no evidence for any of the gods. All you have here is a posited claim based on nothing. Something that appears to you to be true, may or may not actually be true. Another fundamental error in this nonsense. You have no evidence.

As far as not discussing "Yahweh coming from Babylon" ... that's just too bad.
How do we know that Moses could not have written the Torah ? He talks about his own death and burial. That's not possible.
Many other reasons.  https://www.mesacc.edu/~thoqh49081/hando...clues.html
Scholars of world religions and Comparative Mythology (and archaeology) know a lot about this subject.
There are many elements of Sumerian Mythology in Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers.  
In short, the idea, originated in the Sumerian myth system, where it was found as one of the 70 sons of El Elyon), in the Enuma Elish, (the Sumerian Creation myth), found in the Royal Library in Ashurbanipal, by archaeologists, near ancient Nineveh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Ashurbanipal , in the mid 1800's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahweh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/En%C3%BBma_Eli%C5%A1

Yahweh, for much of the time, had a wife, (Ashera, or Ashura).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah

How, and why THIS god got assigned to the Hebrew peoples, (or actually they assigned it to themselves), has to do with the fact that Yahweh was the god of the armies/war, (you probably have heard "Lord of Hosts", ... that is a military concept), if you are a religious/church attending person. (A "host" is an assembled army) and they wanted help in the battles with their neighbors.  

Even the name Isra-EL, retains a derivative relationship with the "EL" gods in the ancient myths, as does "Beth-EL", (Bethel), which we see all over the place today. Beth El was a site in the old Northern kingdom where Yahweh was worshiped.

There was also another god, (combo), called Javeh, which came from Southern Canaan, and the Jordan Valley. Javeh was the Edomite "mountain god", and is also thought to have origins associated with the Egyptian "volcano god". These traditions had within them the Moses stories, and so the origins of Moses, (Mosheh was a common Egyptian name), came from the South, and some from Egypt, as well as Babylon.

When the Judean priests were assembling the texts and myths, (around 550-575 BCE), of Genesis, they combined the materials .. which came from about 5 sources, which are known, leaving many of the origins evident still in the texts. Scholars have known about this for about 150 years, and there isn't much dispute about it, except in very fundamentalist schools, who deny it all, a priori.
I am the Lord thy Dog. Thou shalt have no other dogs before me.
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#88

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
If the OP is happy to risk his immortal soul on an 80-90% chance then I wonder what standards does he demand from airlines?

"Bing".

'British Airways flight 666 is ready to depart for New York and we are pleased to announce your chances of arriving at your destination are greater than one in five. Thank you for flying British Airways.'

Assuming the OP is genuine that is. My confidence that he isn't is about 99.9%.
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#89

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
I will reply within a couple of hours i hope, as well as post wonder 3
Im sorry if i wasnt clear, i intend to update it with a new wonder (until 7 obvs) every once in a while so people can read it in digestable chuncks.
I cabt find where to edit my post ?
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#90

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
I suspect the OP was planning on a fun debate and has belatedly realized he's not going to get any traction here to speak of. And as I pointed out to him, the most he can hope for, hypothetically, from empiricists is an admission that he's posed a valid question to which we don't presently have an answer. But we are not the sort of folks who are going to fall all over ourselves looking for ANY old explanation, however fanciful -- or who are going to consider fanciful explanations as valid candidates.

So in summation he has an uphill battle to even get a bit of credence for his "7 wonders" ... and he's not going to get the level of control he feels entitled to over the terms of engagement, either. The archaological and historical criticism of the Torah is 100% relevant to his claims, since his claims are based entirely on the assumption that the Torah is preternaturally accurate, that it has made predictions that have come true and that its assertions about the Jewish people / nation and its history from past to present is accurate and reliable. If Moses the captivity and Exodus are ahistorical then any other claims the Torah makes are highly suspect, if not entirely baseless.

The "7 wonders" needs uncritical, credulous persons hopeful for a theistic bias to confirm. Why he's come here looking for that is beyond me.
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#91

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 05:29 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: I will reply within a couple of hours
[Drivel snip]

No. Reply now to the issues raised regarding your OP.
And there are lots and lots of them.

Good luck.
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#92

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 05:29 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: I will reply within a couple of hours i hope, as well as post wonder 3
Im sorry if i wasnt clear, i intend to update it with a new wonder (until 7 obvs) every once in a while so people can read it in digestable chuncks.
I cabt find where to edit my post ?

You can't edit, you have to make a new post in this thread. No one would go back to re-read your first post anyway now.

Hopefully you will reply to some of the comments made on your first installment.
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#93

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 02:07 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Also, the Sinai Desert is not that large.  It's a long thin desert but even at that one person can walk the entire length of it in around two and a half weeks.  It's impossible to think that two million people wandered around in it for 40 years.

I said myself elsewhere that the jewish refugees "managed to get lost for forty years in a desert that you'd cover the whole of inside of a week, with suitable provisions".   The story just shows how small and parochial the world of the writers of the bible.  Even compared to their contemporaries they knew little of what stretched beyond their horizon.

Oh and PS, sorry to everybody for clogging up the thread, must remember to combine posts in future.
Factio Republicanus delenda est!
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#94

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 05:29 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: I will reply within a couple of hours i hope, as well as post wonder 3
Im sorry if i wasnt clear, i intend to update it with a new wonder (until 7 obvs) every once in a while so people can read it in digestable chuncks.
I cabt find where to edit my post ?
There is an Edit button for posts, but it is time-limited (an hour or something like that). There's a good reason for this: it balances the need to correct errors or add late-arriving thoughts, with the need to prevent people from changing posts after the fact and claim they never said things they actually said.
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#95

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
The timeline of world religions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o...0,000_BCE)
Of course "no religion" is the oldest, most persistent.
Such a wonder it is. Of course the question which is begged, is why would the gods wait so long in human history to introduce the true one.
LOL

We don't need to digest any wonders. They're all instantly dismissed. Most of us looked them up, and found what nonsense they are.
We're not waiting for this child to post anything.
We already know there is no defense for this line of inquiry.
It's not convincing. On the scale of one to ten, it's about a 0. Obviously he thinks it convincing. Yet he knows next to nothing about these subjects.
For the indoctrinated there is liitle hope ... except time.
Perhaps with time and maturity, he will come to see what nonsense a literal interpretation of these claims are.
I am the Lord thy Dog. Thou shalt have no other dogs before me.
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#96

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 06:39 PM)Brian Shanahan Wrote:
(03-06-2021, 02:07 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Also, the Sinai Desert is not that large.  It's a long thin desert but even at that one person can walk the entire length of it in around two and a half weeks.  It's impossible to think that two million people wandered around in it for 40 years.

I said myself elsewhere that the jewish refugees "managed to get lost for forty years in a desert that you'd cover the whole of inside of a week, with suitable provisions".   The story just shows how small and parochial the world of the writers of the bible.  Even compared to their contemporaries they knew little of what stretched beyond their horizon.

Oh and PS, sorry to everybody for clogging up the thread, must remember to combine posts in future.


Sinai is about the size of West Virginia.  Even jewish tradition holds that they did not "wander" around like a bunch of schmucks.  They camped out at Kadesh Barnea for 38 years.

The oasis of Kadesh Barnea still exists today.

[Image: kadesh-in-the-bible.jpg]

Anyone who thinks that 2 million people could have lived in that spot for 38 years is nuts.

But just to drive home the point in the aftermath of the 1967 war Israel gained control of Sinai and the West Bank and teams of archaeologists spread out to find "evidence" for their bullshit stories.  To no ones great surprise, except perhaps theirs, they found none.  What they found was that there was no indication of any human habitation at Kadesh Barnea during the Late Bronze Age.

But of course being a fundie means they will believe anything!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#97

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Just one question.... Who decides what is or isn't an ad hominem attack against your holy book? One person's ad hominem attack is another person's legitimate criticism or uncomfortable truth.
Justaminute   The whole point of having cake is to eat it! 
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#98

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Ok, so there is a whole lotta replies here. I looked over most, and there is no way I can reply to all of them. I simply dont have enough time. But Thank you for the discussion posts, I will try to reply to them as much as I can. This is pretty important, but I am human lol, I have a time limit.

I cant convey emotion through texts, so all I can do is say this, and hope you believe that I am sincere. I am sorry if I have ruffled any feathers, and Ill explain what I mean by the parameters. I am not trying to convert anyone here. Really. Neither am I a troll. And Im really trying to get to the truth. I am not trying to be duplicitous.

Also, I had planned to edit my main post every day or so with another Wonder, so it was in smaller digestable parts, for ease of reading for people here. Since I apperently cant edit my post, anyone have any other ideas ? (i.e Post the whole thing at once in a comment ? make a new post with the whole thing ?)
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#99

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 03:24 PM)Dom Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 03:22 PM)Szuchow Wrote: You don't get to dictate how others can respond to your posts.

Also till you provide evidence for existence of your tribal deity then I see absolutely no reason to assume that some particular "holy" book is anything other than man-made.

Please help him understand what you see wrong with his wonders. He wants to know. He may agree with you. He has an open mind.

I don't think people have any problem with helping this young man he certainly seems pleasant enough. I think what has rubbed folks up the wrong way is his attempt to set rules and parameters for discussion that he has absolutely no business doing but I suspect he's done it without realising that's a huge no no on this forum, he just needs to be told its a huge no no (which has happened) so maybe now we can move forward.
Justaminute   The whole point of having cake is to eat it! 
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Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 09:54 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: Ok, so there is a whole lotta replies here. I looked over most, and there is no way I can reply to all of them. I simply dont have enough time. But Thank you for the discussion posts, I will try to reply to them as much as I can. This is pretty important, but I am human lol, I have a time limit.

I cant convey emotion through texts, so all I can do is say this, and hope you believe that I am sincere. I am sorry if I have ruffled any feathers, and Ill explain what I mean by the parameters. I am not trying to convert anyone here. Really. Neither am I a troll. And Im really trying to get to the truth. I am not trying to be duplicitous.

Also, I had planned to edit my main post every day or so with another Wonder, so it was in smaller digestable parts, for ease of reading for people here. Since I apperently cant edit my post, anyone have any other ideas ? (i.e Post the whole thing at once in a comment ? make a new post with the whole thing ?)

Just add a post with another wonder to this thread, we don't want you to litter the forum with threads about this.

But it would be good if you could answer some of the comments first. It should be a discussion, not just posting religious content.

No problem if you are slow answering or can't answer everything, but do show some involvement and good will.
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
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