Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
#51

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
[Image: icon_quote.jpg]Dom:
he has been taught a faulty view of atheism.

The religious tend to have a faulty view of anything that does not comply with their particular brand of trademarked magic.
Reply
#52

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 06:35 PM)Vera Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 05:35 PM)Deesse23 Wrote: Amen!

What's the Jewish for amen, I wonder Angel2

Omayn. It rhymes with the name of the quintessential Jewish dish lo mein.

[Image: Vegetable-Lo-Mein-4.jpg]
The following 1 user Likes Aliza's post:
  • Vera
Reply
#53

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 04:18 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: Prophesy is and was not "prediction". 
Some Christian scholars get this at least partially right. The alliterative way to say it is that prophecy is not fore-telling, but forth-telling. Setting forth how the scriptures are to be interpreted in the prophet's day. Most of them end up claiming however that it has dual significance, as both dogma and prediction. Based on what? Nothing really, but a desire for it to be predictive.

Christian traditions often use the labels "prophet" or even "prophetic" in this dual sense, where sometimes the primary meaning is little different from "spiritual leader" or "spiritual visionary" and has no predictive component at all. But because the general public tends to see these labels as identifying persons with some eldritch insight into the spacetime continuum, I think the labels serve to stroke egos and aggrandize those on whom they are bestowed.
Reply
#54

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 06:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 05:49 PM)julep Wrote: I've known proselytizing Jews.  I've known quite a few converted Jews, usually for reasons of marriage, similar to puppet's felonious daughter Ivanka.  To be fair, I haven't encountered them as often as proselytizing Christians and Muslims.  From the poster's self-description, he's a convert of sorts himself, and people who have converted to a point of view rather than growing up with that view may try to self-validate this process by trying to win others to the same belief.   

He's already tried to load the dice by preemptively refusing to consider any response grounded in history or archeology (which would rule out any chance of this being a substantive or interesting conversation).

Where did GttT say they were a convert (literally or figuratively)? I missed that totally. @Vera also said that their mother was Christian... I'm busy as all can be IRL, but I'm surprised that I missed these details.

And of course the rules of the forum override the declared rules of a poster starting their own thread.

Convert of some sort was the impression I got from the quote below, which is in his introductory thread. It sounded as though these concepts were new to him--sorry, I shouldn't be gendering, I don't know if this is a male or female.  I thought that somebody raised in a religious home would have been already familiar with these concepts, but I admit that this was an assumption.     

"I first heard it in an Aish Discovery seminar, but a single 1 hour presentation, while sounding very intresting, isnt nearly enough. 

So i have followed it up with many 1 on 1s with the Rebbeim there, and like i said, it seems pretty strong."
god, ugh
Reply
#55

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 07:25 PM)julep Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 06:12 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 05:49 PM)julep Wrote: I've known proselytizing Jews.  I've known quite a few converted Jews, usually for reasons of marriage, similar to puppet's felonious daughter Ivanka.  To be fair, I haven't encountered them as often as proselytizing Christians and Muslims.  From the poster's self-description, he's a convert of sorts himself, and people who have converted to a point of view rather than growing up with that view may try to self-validate this process by trying to win others to the same belief.   

He's already tried to load the dice by preemptively refusing to consider any response grounded in history or archeology (which would rule out any chance of this being a substantive or interesting conversation).

Where did GttT say they were a convert (literally or figuratively)? I missed that totally. @Vera also said that their mother was Christian... I'm busy as all can be IRL, but I'm surprised that I missed these details.

And of course the rules of the forum override the declared rules of a poster starting their own thread.

Convert of some sort was the impression I got from this (in his introductory thread): it sounded as though these concepts were new to him--sorry, I shouldn't be gendering, I don't know if this is a male or female.  I thought that somebody raised in a religious home would have been already familiar with these concepts, but I admit that this was an assumption.     

"I first heard it in an Aish Discovery seminar, but a single 1 hour presentation, while sounding very intresting, isnt nearly enough. 

So i have followed it up with many 1 on 1s with the Rebbeim there, and like i said, it seems pretty strong."

I would have also gotten a new-to-religious-observance feel if not for the fact that GttT stated that they're frum from birth. Basically, they're saying they were raised as an observant Jew. 

There is a lot of room for loosey goosey interpretations to potentially exist there, but I can find enough scenarios to at least make it possible that GttT can be both frum from birth and also not have encountered the content of the Aish discovery material.
Reply
#56

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 02:51 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: Hello again, this is GttT with the 7 Wonders of Jewish History (Henceforth 7WoJH). (You can skip this intro if you need). Sorry for the delay.
I admit I have not been exposed to these "7 wonders", at least in this form. As a deconvert from evangelical Christianity, I certainly heard all of those claims in some form or other over the years (not from actual Jews, but from self-proclaimed Judeophiles or from Jewish converts to Christianity, the so-called Messianic Jews). I think it's fair to distill them as "the Jewish people are unique in various ways, and have survived despite multiple diasporas and intense persecution, therefore, God".

I have never been particularly impressed by this "reasoning". Judaism has cultural and ideological / religious / political components. Jewish culture has endured, I'd submit, because the Jewish people have chosen to maintain it through tradition, lore, and ritual, as opposed to simply assimilating, and have been willing on the whole to endure any amount of persecution, even unto death. At some points in history that has resulted in the establishment of various forms of Jewish community, and in the past 3 generations or so a Jewish state in its ancestral territory.

I would suggest that Jewish persecution (or anti-semitism) exists and tends to be sustained because Jewish culture and non-assimilation is implicitly and inherently a repudiation of the host culture as inferior or insufficient. (I am not, to be clear, suggesting there's anything at all wrong in Jewish separatist culture, but that Jewish exceptionalism -- like American exceptionalism or any other source thereof -- is inherently odious to people outside the group, who are, by definition, unexceptional and therefore inferior. These are perceptions, valid or not, that violate people's ego investments and raise suspicions). Apart from all this, any separatist culture (say, the Amish or Mennonites, or even Fundamentalist religion of any kind) is easily seen by outsiders as having something to hide, responsibilities to evade, or both. It's legit, but hard, to be labeled "Not a Team Player".

I don't see anything that requires supernatural intervention to explain the enduring nature of Jewish culture and identity (or persecution), or the recent formation of a Jewish state (notice, I said, "a", not "the"). I have not seen convincing arguments in favor of these being "wonders" that require an extraordinary, much less supernatural, explanation.

I am willing to talk about specific claims and arguments; I am certainly not infallible. But understand that to a rationalist, even the unexplained is simply the unexplained, not something that urgently demands an explanation, and especially not when the one offered is fanciful. The most you can probably hope to accomplish with folks here is an admission that something is unusual and there's not a comprehensive and satisfying explanation at the present time. We already admit to this in many areas, for example, how life came from non-life is something that we only have untested (and at present, often untestable) hypotheses about. This is not perturbing to empiricists. At least not to those who can readily admit that we don't / can't know everything there is to know. We are able to sit with uncertainty.
The following 10 users Like mordant's post:
  • Aliza, Dancefortwo, Minimalist, Deesse23, Vera, brunumb, Chas, Dom, Inkubus, Tartarus Sauce
Reply
#57

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Since the end of WW2, archaeologists have been busy doing lots of work in the Near East. They have now demonstrated that the Pentateuch is faux history. It never happened. There was no Egyptian captivity, no Exodus of some 2 1/2 million people from Egypt. No wandering in the wilderness. No camping out at Kadesh Barnea for some 38 years. No bloody, genocidal invasion of Canaan lead by Moses and Joshua.

Colloquium of the International Institute for Secular
Humanistic Judaism, Detroit, October 2005

Israel Finkelstein and Amihai Mazar
edited by Brian B. Schmidt
Brill Leiden • Boston 2007
ISBN: 978-90-04-15738-5


The Patriarchs, Exodus, and Conquest Narratives
in Light of Archaeology
Amihai Mazar

The Exodus
No direct evidence on the Israelite sojourn in Egypt and the Exodus can
be extracted from archaeology. The only evidence that one might seriously
consider is circumstantial.
Page 59

In spite of the late-second-millennium b.c.e. relics in the biblical nar-
rative and the few geographical features in the story that may be
identified, the Exodus story, one of the most prominent traditions in
Israelite common memory, cannot be accepted as an historical event and
must be defined as a national saga. We cannot perceive a whole nation
wondering through the desert for forty years under the leadership of
Moses, as presented in the biblical tradition.
Page 60
I am a sovereign citizen of the Multiverse, and I vote!


The following 5 users Like Cheerful Charlie's post:
  • abaris, Deesse23, brunumb, Chas, mordant
Reply
#58

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
No wonder he doesn't want to hear about history or archaeology!
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
Reply
#59

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Israel Finkelstein and Amihai Mazar


I am the Lord thy Dog. Thou shalt have no other dogs before me.
Reply
#60

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 02:51 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: The basic structure of this proof is that the Torah predicted these highly unlikely often naturally contradictory phenomena to happen to the jewish people across history, and they did. Additionally the prophecy itself is (often) suprising and unlikely if it was in a manmade religion. 
The predictions were made at a minimum of 2500 years ago, before any of these events take place.
Enough of this, and the unlikelyness builds to where it makes no sense that it would naturally occur in an unguided materialistic world, and really only makes sense if the same entity that wrote those predictions could also control history. aka God.

Some of these phenomena have happened to other nations/cultures as well (I.e. The Hellenistic Greeks had a similar cultural/educational impact on the world,) but all 7 happened to the jews. The difference between one (or even 2) unlikely phenomena happening to you, even ones that you guessed/predicted right, and 7 is a vast gulf in unlikeliness. So it isnt just about one or 2 wonders, but all of them happening as a whole. Especially when you add them together and many naturally contradict each other, yet they all still happened.


Im going to skip to the 2nd wonder here actually (which is more like 2 itself tbh, but it was been combined into one bigger one). Also I am trying to make the post as short as possible, so i may need to go back and add details later.

Exile/Scattering/Wandering. 
The Scattering of the Jews happened to a pretty high degree, and is pretty unlikely I think. In the initial diaspora of the 2nd temple, the jews were scattered (after and during the exile itself) to almost all of the (then) civilized world; all over the roman empire, to places in Mesopotamia, and upper africa. In the medieval peroid ish to almost all of Europe, the Muslim world, and a few more parts of Africa. In more modern times, North America, South America, more parts of asia, and Australia. 
The Jews have also been kept wandering; tons of expulsions from places they were living, then later coming back when reinvited. Persecution have driven tons of jews to move, large migrations to lands of more opportunity. The Jews have been kept on the move a ton. (On a national scale. For a person, to live in one place for 100 years is pretty sedentary, but on a national scale, a community that only exists 100 years in one place before it must pick itself up and move again is pretty mobile.)
The exile is also rare. Exile less so than Scaterring and Wandering to the extreme degree as the Jews have done, but still not that common. Usually the native population is killed, subjugated and brought into the empire, or restricted to one corner of their lands. and the jews were exiled 1.5 times (the .5 is the 2nd temple exile; only a half, cause only half of the jewish nation was there to be specifically exiled.), which is even rarer.
All of these are pretty rare (and therefore naturally unlikely) to happen to a nation, especially all 3. And yet they were predicted in the Torah, and in fact happened.
As well as I would think the prophecy itself is a little unlikely to happen/me made, if one is manufacturing a religion.

 I would hesitate to call this “proof” because it views the exile of Jews through a narrow lens that aims to frame events in such a way as to describe a known (or desired) outcome. It explains a trend and it’s interesting and cool, but it’s not “proof” of a divine plan at work. I happen to find the organization and cohesion of the Jewish people in diaspora for over 2,000 years to be incredibly impressive and unique, but this could be explained as a group of people who simply willed themselves to stick together based on what they have been told they are capable of (ie: self-fulfilling prophecy).

Determining if something is likely or unlikely to have occurred is fun to posit, but to actually prove this, we’d need someone qualified to work out the math… It would surprise me to learn if anything like this has been done to the point where an article has been peer reviewed and accepted as “proof.”

There’s another conversation to be had about the definition of a miracle. People with Christian backgrounds see miracles as magical events that defy the laws of nature. I was taught in my own Jewish setting that miracles are perfectly timed, naturally occurring events that do not defy the laws of nature. A group of people who will themselves to stick together because their ancestors insisted that they could does meet my criteria for a miracle. So, it’s a miracle! (But then so is the rising sun)
 
In short: neato != proof.
The following 3 users Like Aliza's post:
  • mordant, skyking, Dancefortwo
Reply
#61

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 06:47 PM)Aliza Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 06:35 PM)Vera Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 05:35 PM)Deesse23 Wrote: Amen!

What's the Jewish for amen, I wonder Angel2

Omayn. It rhymes with the name of the quintessential Jewish dish lo mein.

[Image: Vegetable-Lo-Mein-4.jpg]
Noodles with veggies n shrooms?
*yum*
R.I.P. Hannes
The following 1 user Likes Deesse23's post:
  • Aliza
Reply
#62

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
It's a total fallacy to say that Judaism is Judaism is Judaism.
Ancient Judaism, 1st Temple Judaism, 2nd Temple Judaim and Rabbinic Judaism are all totally different things.
Judaism changed and evolved over the centuries, as historians know.
To say that Judaism today has much of anything in common with Temple 2 Judaism is ignorannce.
Now Judaism is divided into many sects, each of which think they are the authentic sect.

To say that a creator of 600 sextillion stars would call one tiny fraction of the humans he (supposedly) created, the "chosen people" is beyond ludicrous.
I am the Lord thy Dog. Thou shalt have no other dogs before me.
The following 7 users Like Bucky Ball's post:
  • mordant, Vera, brunumb, Inkubus, Chas, skyking, Brian Shanahan
Reply
#63

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 10:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: It's a total fallacy to say that Judaism is Judaism is Judaism.
Ancient Judaism, 1st Temple Judaism, 2nd Temple Judaim and Rabbinic Judaism are all totally different things.
Judaism changed and evolved over the centuries, as historians know.
To say that Judaism today has much of anything in common with Temple 2 Judaism is ignorannce.
Now Judaism is divided into many sects, each of which think they are the authentic sect.
In other words, the world hasn't been unable to reject a monolithic, immutable Judaism; Judaism has in fact adapted to a hostile world.
Reply
#64

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Yes.... with some serious bumps in the road along the way.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
Reply
#65

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 06:47 PM)Aliza Wrote: Omayn. It rhymes with the name of the quintessential Jewish dish lo mein.

[Image: Vegetable-Lo-Mein-4.jpg]

Almost what I had for dinner yesterday (with corn instead of broccoli).

[Image: giphy.gif]

(Today's dinner was Italian pasta with peppers and tomatoes. Big Grin)
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
The following 1 user Likes Vera's post:
  • Aliza
Reply
#66

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 02:51 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: First off, I do agree with the basic premise of Athiesm, which is that things are unproven, generally assumed untrue until proven true. This is because there are so many more ways the reality doesnt work, than ways it does. So if you want to posit xyz is how reality works, prove it. Next, I am not looking to be 100% sure of anything, only up until an unreasonable doubt. This is a bit of a subjective measurement, but even so, sometimes its more obvious than others, and I will do my best to be as objective as I can. In my words, if Im 80% or 90% sure of something, thats enough.

Atheism has no premises. Atheism is just a term for the collective group of people who do not have a belief in the existence of a god.


(03-05-2021, 02:51 PM)Get_to_the_Truth Wrote: Exile/Scattering/Wandering. 
The Scattering of the Jews happened to a pretty high degree, and is pretty unlikely I think. In the initial diaspora of the 2nd temple, the jews were scattered (after and during the exile itself) to almost all of the (then) civilized world; all over the roman empire, to places in Mesopotamia, and upper africa. In the medieval peroid ish to almost all of Europe, the Muslim world, and a few more parts of Africa. In more modern times, North America, South America, more parts of asia, and Australia. 
The Jews have also been kept wandering; tons of expulsions from places they were living, then later coming back when reinvited. Persecution have driven tons of jews to move, large migrations to lands of more opportunity. The Jews have been kept on the move a ton. (On a national scale. For a person, to live in one place for 100 years is pretty sedentary, but on a national scale, a community that only exists 100 years in one place before it must pick itself up and move again is pretty mobile.)
The exile is also rare. Exile less so than Scaterring and Wandering to the extreme degree as the Jews have done, but still not that common. Usually the native population is killed, subjugated and brought into the empire, or restricted to one corner of their lands. and the jews were exiled 1.5 times (the .5 is the 2nd temple exile; only a half, cause only half of the jewish nation was there to be specifically exiled.), which is even rarer.
All of these are pretty rare (and therefore naturally unlikely) to happen to a nation, especially all 3. And yet they were predicted in the Torah, and in fact happened.
As well as I would think the prophecy itself is a little unlikely to happen/me made, if one is manufacturing a religion.

The torah was not finalized until the last couple of centuries prior to Christ and the following century. The diaspora was in the rearview mirror by then.

As a point of advice, if you're going to argue prophecy, you should quote the actual prophetic words as well as what fulfilled them. Otherwise we have no way to judge your claims.
[Image: sea-stones-whimsy-7-sm.jpg]
Reply
#67

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
I find this topic very interesting (as you all might have guessed), but I'm going to compel myself to allow the conversation to marinate a little and let OP catch up tomorrow and reply.  Wave
The following 2 users Like Aliza's post:
  • Dancefortwo, Dom
Reply
#68

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 10:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: To say that a creator of 600 sextillion stars would call one tiny fraction of the humans he (supposedly) created, the "chosen people" is beyond ludicrous.

That really says it all. About *all* our religions, creeds, superstitions, fuzzy safety blankets against the cold of an uncaring, indifferent universe.

As Feynman said, it really isn't in proportion (well, unless we're talking in proportion with humankind's ego then yeah, it sounds about right, arrogant little vermin that we are Dodgy )

"And so altogether I can't believe the special stories that have been made up about our relationship to the universe at large because... they seem to be... too simple, too... too connected, too local, too provincial! The earth! He came to the earth! ONE of the aspects of god "came to the EARTH, mind you!". And look at what's out there... How can he... It isn't in proportion!"
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
The following 4 users Like Vera's post:
  • Dancefortwo, brunumb, mordant, Brian Shanahan
Reply
#69

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 10:45 PM)Vera Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 10:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: To say that a creator of 600 sextillion stars would call one tiny fraction of the humans he (supposedly) created, the "chosen people" is beyond ludicrous.

That really says it all. About *all* our religions, creeds, superstitions, fuzzy safety blankets against the cold of an uncaring, indifferent universe.

As Feynman said, it really isn't in proportion (well, unless we're talking in proportion with humankind's ego then yeah, it sounds about right, arrogant little vermin that we are Dodgy )

"And so altogether I can't believe the special stories that have been made up about our relationship to the universe at large because... they seem to be... too simple, too... too connected, too local, too provincial! The earth! He came to the earth! ONE of the aspects of god "came to the EARTH, mind you!". And look at what's out there... How can he... It isn't in proportion!"

I agree.  We now know that the planets and the sun do not revolve around the earth but the idea that humans are the center of a god's eyes is still being touted by the religious.   They believe that out of the ba-zillions of planets and quadtrillians of stars we are still the most important item in the universe.  This surely speaks more of the human ego than anything else.
                                                         T4618
Reply
#70

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 10:07 PM)mordant Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 10:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: It's a total fallacy to say that Judaism is Judaism is Judaism.
Ancient Judaism, 1st Temple Judaism, 2nd Temple Judaim and Rabbinic Judaism are all totally different things.
Judaism changed and evolved over the centuries, as historians know.
To say that Judaism today has much of anything in common with Temple 2 Judaism is ignorannce.
Now Judaism is divided into many sects, each of which think they are the authentic sect.

In other words, the world hasn't been unable to reject a monolithic, immutable Judaism; Judaism has in fact adapted to a hostile world.

Judaism adapted itself to a changing world. The second temple was destroyed by, and Jerusalem was destroyed because of, stupid leaders who did not get that Rome was superior. They "adapted" to nothing.

They went from "Keep holy the Sabaath" to arguing about whether the creator of the universe cares about whether they flip on a lightswitch on Saturday.

After we get through this infantile portion of the discussion, maybe we can get on to the real substantive discussion. Even if Judaism is not literally "true", and there is no question about that, is it one of the religious traditions of the world, which if honored either for family tradition reasons, or some other personal reason, can assist in leading a good life, for those who find use in that ? The answer just might be "yes" for some, ... but certainly not in the context in which this thread presented it as "the truth".
I am the Lord thy Dog. Thou shalt have no other dogs before me.
The following 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post:
  • Dancefortwo
Reply
#71

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
The Torah says Israel is god's chosen people. Many Christians piggy-back on this and say that the Church now co-holds that honor with Judaism. Then there is the 19th century doctrine of Manifest Destiny which US frontier settlers used to assuage their conscience about the annihilation of indigenous people's culture, which segued into the Ugly American problem where we went throwing our weight around everywhere in the world, in ways big and small, from talking down to merchants in other countries while on vacation, to outright colonialism.

Overall in the long run, this business of being Special (just like everyone else!!) and Chosen hasn't worked out well either for those claiming it or for those who are supposed to defer to it. But if you're one of the Chosen, it certainly is a short-term rush if you can ignore the fact that you're being an asshole just by making such a claim.
The following 2 users Like mordant's post:
  • julep, Vera
Reply
#72

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
Big Grin
This is a true story.

One of the managers that our union dealt with on a virtually daily basis lived in an Orthodox Jewish neighborhood in Brooklyn but he was Italian.  One day during a break he said that he had to make sure to get home before sunset because it was the sabbath and he promised his neighbors that he would take care of their refrigerators.  My president, who was jewish himself, looked at me blankly and I said "what are you talking about."

He explained that he had several for whom he would loosen the light bulb in their refrigerators so it would not go on when they opened the door.  While I was trying to absorb that bit of insanity my president said "that makes sense..... the Curlies ( his name for the Orthodox ) can't operate equipment on the sabbath."

I looked at the two of them and said "what happens if, when they open the door, the compressor comes on?  Do they go straight to hell?"  The manager looked horrified at the the thought and my president cracked up.  He was not a "practicing jew" or, as he often said "I would need a lot of practice."

Perhaps the OP can enlighten us but I rather doubt that the torah has fuckall to say about refrigeration equipment.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
The following 2 users Like Minimalist's post:
  • mordant, Brian Shanahan
Reply
#73

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-05-2021, 11:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 10:07 PM)mordant Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 10:06 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote: It's a total fallacy to say that Judaism is Judaism is Judaism.
Ancient Judaism, 1st Temple Judaism, 2nd Temple Judaim and Rabbinic Judaism are all totally different things.
Judaism changed and evolved over the centuries, as historians know.
To say that Judaism today has much of anything in common with Temple 2 Judaism is ignorannce.
Now Judaism is divided into many sects, each of which think they are the authentic sect.

In other words, the world hasn't been unable to reject a monolithic, immutable Judaism; Judaism has in fact adapted to a hostile world.

Judaism adapted itself to a changing world. The second temple was destroyed by, and Jerusalem was destroyed because of, stupid leaders who did not get that Rome was superior. They "adapted" to nothing.

They went from "Keep holy the Sabaath" to arguing about whether the creator of the universe cares about whether they flip on a lightswitch on Saturday.

After we get through this infantile portion of the discussion, maybe we can get on to the real substantive discussion. Even if Judaism is not literally "true", and there is no question about that, is it one of the religious traditions of the world, which if honored either for family tradition reasons, or some other personal reason, can assist in leading a good life, for those who find use in that ? The answer just might be "yes" for some, ... but certainly not in the context in which this thread presented it as "the truth".

The answer is no.  Why?  Circumcision. Deadpan Coffee Drinker 




(also bacon)
[Image: Logo%20free%20sm.jpg]
Reply
#74

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 12:26 AM)mordant Wrote: The Torah says Israel is god's chosen people. Many Christians piggy-back on this and say that the Church now co-holds that honor with Judaism. Then there is the 19th century doctrine of Manifest Destiny which US frontier settlers used to assuage their conscience about the annihilation of indigenous people's culture, which segued into the Ugly American problem where we went throwing our weight around everywhere in the world, in ways big and small, from talking down to merchants in other countries while on vacation, to outright colonialism.

Overall in the long run, this business of being Special (just like everyone else!!) and Chosen hasn't worked out well either for those claiming it or for those who are supposed to defer to it. But if you're one of the Chosen, it certainly is a short-term rush if you can ignore the fact that you're being an asshole just by making such a claim.

Researchers estimated that so many Indigenous People died from disease and genocide after Columbus arrived in the Americas that the planet cooled down causing a mini ice age for almost two centuries.     An Indigenous Holocaust of epic numbers, 55 million people died.

https://www.businessinsider.com/climate-...ans-2019-2
                                                         T4618
The following 1 user Likes Dancefortwo's post:
  • mordant
Reply
#75

Intro and 7 Wonders of Jewish History
(03-06-2021, 01:37 AM)Chas Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 11:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:
(03-05-2021, 10:07 PM)mordant Wrote: In other words, the world hasn't been unable to reject a monolithic, immutable Judaism; Judaism has in fact adapted to a hostile world.

Judaism adapted itself to a changing world. The second temple was destroyed by, and Jerusalem was destroyed because of, stupid leaders who did not get that Rome was superior. They "adapted" to nothing.

They went from "Keep holy the Sabaath" to arguing about whether the creator of the universe cares about whether they flip on a lightswitch on Saturday.

After we get through this infantile portion of the discussion, maybe we can get on to the real substantive discussion. Even if Judaism is not literally "true", and there is no question about that, is it one of the religious traditions of the world, which if honored either for family tradition reasons, or some other personal reason, can assist in leading a good life, for those who find use in that ? The answer just might be "yes" for some, ... but certainly not in the context in which this thread presented it as "the truth".

The answer is no.  Why?  Circumcision. Deadpan Coffee Drinker 




(also bacon)

I had no expectation that anyone here would see that positively.
I am the Lord thy Dog. Thou shalt have no other dogs before me.
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)