Welcome to Atheist Discussion, a new community created by former members of The Thinking Atheist forum.

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
#1

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the World Events and Politics subforum, but I'll let the mods decide.  In other words, I decided to get this off my chest, for whatever it may be worth.

A while ago, my grandfather asked me at the dinner table if I knew of any other country in the world that was "free" like the US.  It was one of those moments when I groaned inwardly end wanted to roll my eyes.  Nevertheless, it gave me an opportunity to at least begin dissuading him from what I consider to be a primary thread in the fabric of American exceptionalism.

In a nutshell, conservatives don't seem to understand that IT'S NOT THE LAST QUARTER OF THE 18TH CENTURY ANYMORE!!  In other words, they have notions about the global distribution of key ideals (such as liberalism, representative democracy, and civil rights guaranteed by statute) which are about two centuries out-of-date!  The principles and frameworks that went into the founding of the United States may have been innovative, formative, and perhaps even unprecedented for their time, but a major part of modern exceptionalism seems to be ignorance or denial that much of the rest of the world has caught up with us and, in some ways, even surpassed us!   Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most or all of Western Europe at least has something roughly comparable to a Bill of Rights, for instance, and to the extent that there are still monarchs in that part of the world, I don't think a single one wields the kind of power that they had in prior eras.  But I listen to some conservatives speak, and I can't say I'd be all that surprised if they were shown to believe, for example, that Emmanuel Macron has all the same power as Louis XIV or that Elizabeth II can abridge any Brit's civil liberties on a whim!

I don't think this particular factor is highlighted quite as rigorously as it should be in critiques of American exceptionalism in general.  It really is a tortoise-and-the-hare scenario!  The United States is only a "shining city on a hill" relative to late-18th/early-19th-century standards!  Hell, in some ways, we were already behind the curve as early as the mid 1800s, with Britain beating us to the abolition of slavery (and the Brits managed to do it without a civil war)!  We Americans should obviously take pride in the fact that we were arguably the first to at least implement if not outright conceive of certain socio-political innovations, but if we continue to kid ourselves into thinking we're still as unique as we once were, we waste both that legacy and the opportunity to accomplish even greater strides!

We're not the beacon we once may have been, but we could be again.  A key step, though, is admitting that we're not there yet, which is precisely what conservatives seem to avoid.
The only sacred truth in science is that there are no sacred truths. - Carl Sagan
Ἡ μόνη ἱερᾱ̀ ἀληθείᾱ ἐν τῇ φυσικῇ φιλοσοφίᾳ ἐστὶν ἡ ἱερῶν ἀληθειῶν σπάνις. - Κᾱ́ρολος Σήγανος


Reply
#2

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 08:37 AM)Glossophile Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most or all of Western Europe at least has something roughly comparable to a Bill of Rights, for instance, and to the extent that there are still monarchs in that part of the world, I don't think a single one wields the kind of power that they had in prior eras. 

Monarchs:
In Europe, monarchs are only figureheads, on top of ceremony, wielding (almost) no real power. Even presidents (like the german one) only have very very small power, although they have the "highest office". In fact, separation of power is done very, very thoroughly in most of Europe (bar Poland, Hungary, etc.)

Bill of rights:
Same. Europe is mostly not behind hte US at all, rather the opposite. We had enough time to learn from the age old example (and our own experiments: See Weimar)

General:
Even if ON PAPER the US constitution/ bill of rights fares better, in PRAXI often it does not.
Example: separation of church and state is mor or less official in USA, in Germany it is CLEARLY no separation. Germany is a CHRISTIAN state. Yet the religious (funies) wield much more power than the church does so in Germany (it does, but not as extremely as in the US, correct me if i am wrong).

Thats why so many eurpeans agree that, while the US was great in the late 18th century, that was 300 years ago, and the world has turned, and so an "overhaul" would be sensible (gun regulations, prison system, elections, etc.).
R.I.P. Hannes
The following 2 users Like Deesse23's post:
  • Thumpalumpacus, julep
Reply
#3

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 08:37 AM)Glossophile Wrote: We Americans should obviously take pride in the fact that we were arguably the first to at least implement if not outright conceive of certain socio-political innovations, but if we continue to kid ourselves into thinking we're still as unique as we once were, we waste both that legacy and the opportunity to accomplish even greater strides!

We're not the beacon we once may have been, but we could be again.  A key step, though, is admitting that we're not there yet, which is precisely what conservatives seem to avoid.
This!
R.I.P. Hannes
The following 3 users Like Deesse23's post:
  • Mathilda, Dom, Phaedrus
Reply
#4

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 08:37 AM)Glossophile Wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most or all of Western Europe at least has something roughly comparable to a Bill of Rights, for instance, and to the extent that there are still monarchs in that part of the world, I don't think a single one wields the kind of power that they had in prior eras.  But I listen to some conservatives speak, and I can't say I'd be all that surprised if they were shown to believe, for example, that Emmanuel Macron has all the same power as Louis XIV or that Elizabeth II can abridge any Brit's civil liberties on a whim!

I'm not sure how powerful the French president actually is, but he's certainly not more powerful than the American one. The monarchs, well, they're representatives. Other countries have a more or less powerless president as head of states, monarchies have their monarchs fulfilling the same role. They're symbols and not much more, while the real power is wielded by elected governments.

Some countries, such as our's (Austria) have kind of an in between between the power the French president holds and the symbolism of presidents such as the German one. Our president, elected by popular vote, has the power to disband the government and to decide on experts running the show until elections can be held. This happened once, in 2019. The current government was removed by a parliamentary vote of distrust and the president assembled an expert government to rule until the general elections in september of that year.

As far as the Bill of Rights goes, members of the EU have to subscribe to the Declaration of Human Rights. Many other countries have signed it also.
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
The following 2 users Like abaris's post:
  • Deesse23, Thumpalumpacus
Reply
#5

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2014/12...f-silence/

I wouldn't be so sure.
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
Reply
#6

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
It should also no tbe forgotten that before the US the UK/England was in a similar situation being a forerunner of some political/constitutional changes.

Magna Charta, where the king had to acknowledge he didnt have unlimited power.
The civil war (1400s) where the parliament fought the king, based on constitutional law. The brits beheaded their king for treason long before Louis IVX uttered "i am the state!".

The world is ever changing, evolving!
R.I.P. Hannes
The following 2 users Like Deesse23's post:
  • Dom, Glossophile
Reply
#7

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise


I don't agree with all of this but he makes some salient points.
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
Reply
#8

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 08:37 AM)Glossophile Wrote: A while ago, my grandfather asked me at the dinner table if I knew of any other country in the world that was "free" like the US...

An easy Answer?   Australia.

Of course, it's dependent on  what he meant by the word "free".  In a general
context, Australia is a lot more free than America—with its puritanical moral
standards, its outdated electoral system, its religious leanings, its blatant public
racism and white supremacist tendencies, its five times higher poverty levels,
its high rates of criminality, its imperialist war mongering, and certainly its lack
of appropriate response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

[Image: Screenshot-2021-01-29-Mapped-The-world-s...ntries.png]

[Image: ae66b7ebf0666e416da7a05b6ccbeb86.jpg]
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
The following 2 users Like SYZ's post:
  • Fireball, Deesse23
Reply
#9

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 11:54 AM)Deesse23 Wrote: The civil war (1400s) where the parliament fought the king, based on constitutional law. The brits beheaded their king for treason long before Louis IVX uttered "i am the state!".

Uhm, you mean 1642 to 1649, I guess.

And, sorry @SYZ , they show Brazil, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria as "Free", which kind of devalues their overall statements on liberty. Germany is supposed to be only ten notches ahead of Poland, in terms of freedom. That's ludicrous.

https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map...&year=2020
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
The following 2 users Like abaris's post:
  • SYZ, Deesse23
Reply
#10

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 11:29 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:
(01-28-2021, 08:37 AM)Glossophile Wrote: We Americans should obviously take pride in the fact that we were arguably the first to at least implement if not outright conceive of certain socio-political innovations, but if we continue to kid ourselves into thinking we're still as unique as we once were, we waste both that legacy and the opportunity to accomplish even greater strides!

We're not the beacon we once may have been, but we could be again.  A key step, though, is admitting that we're not there yet, which is precisely what conservatives seem to avoid.
This!

Indeed.

Reply
#11

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
Americans always forget a key phrase in our Consitution: "a more perfect union."

The inference the Founding Fathers were making is that we are not a perfect nation. We still aren't. We should be working towards a more-perfect union. Too many Americans are and have been complacent, or stood against the extension of freedoms. We've still got it pretty goddamned good, all things consired.

(01-28-2021, 11:51 AM)adey67 Wrote: https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2014/12...f-silence/

I wouldn't be so sure.

Breitbart is a hopelessly biased right-wing outlet that is thoroughly uncredible and only repeats articles that agree with its views. I certainly wouldn't read your link with any amount of trust; and I'll certainly fact-check the claims therein. BB has been dishonest in the past.

ETA: It should be pointed out that that article is six years old. Also, from two years ago:

the Guardian Wrote:In 2018, a YouGov poll found British students were no keener to see speakers banned than the general public. In the US, a Knight Foundation survey found students were less likely than the overall population to support restrictions of free speech on campus, and Jeffrey Sachs, the US political scientist, found that there had been no “generational shift” in tolerance.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre...suggest-so
On hiatus.
The following 6 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post:
  • Dom, abaris, Fireball, Szuchow, Inkubus, tomilay
Reply
#12

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
Breitbart is chuck full of lies and propaganda.

The puritan morals seem to have flown away with trump.

I think the US is limping several decades behind Europe at this point. The US stagnated, and now, regressed. We made good progress with many things in the 60s and 70s, and some in the 80s. But then it came to a screeching halt.
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
The following 3 users Like Dom's post:
  • Thumpalumpacus, Fireball, Inkubus
Reply
#13

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 01:48 PM)abaris Wrote:
(01-28-2021, 11:54 AM)Deesse23 Wrote: The civil war (1400s) where the parliament fought the king, based on constitutional law. The brits beheaded their king for treason long before Louis IVX uttered "i am the state!".

Uhm, you mean 1642 to 1649, I guess.

And, sorry @SYZ , they show Brazil, Poland, Romania and Bulgaria as "Free", which kind of devalues their overall statements on liberty. Germany is supposed to be only ten notches ahead of Poland, in terms of freedom. That's ludicrous.

https://freedomhouse.org/explore-the-map...&year=2020

Yep, i fucked up, i was "drawing my gun too fast" when i typed. Of course Cromwell was in the 1600s. War of Roses was in the 1400s.
R.I.P. Hannes
The following 1 user Likes Deesse23's post:
  • Thumpalumpacus
Reply
#14

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 06:09 PM)Deesse23 Wrote: Of course Cromwell was in the 1600s. War of Roses was in the 1400s.

And Cromwell was a religious nutter to boot. Not sure if he was any better than beheaded Charles. Especially the Irish wish him to hell.
[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]
Reply
#15

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 06:12 PM)abaris Wrote:
(01-28-2021, 06:09 PM)Deesse23 Wrote: Of course Cromwell was in the 1600s. War of Roses was in the 1400s.

And Cromwell was a religious nutter to boot. Not sure if he was any better than beheaded Charles. Especially the Irish wish him to hell.
I never claimed that they were right in decapitating their king, or that Cromwell was a saint, but that the english law allowed for this, just like the US constitution allows for impeachment, long before Louis XIV could make statements that put the french system at the other end of the scale of how exactly monarchies are.
R.I.P. Hannes
The following 2 users Like Deesse23's post:
  • Thumpalumpacus, tomilay
Reply
#16

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 02:35 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Americans always forget a key phrase in our Consitution: "a more perfect union."

The inference the Founding Fathers were making is that we are not a perfect nation. We still aren't. We should be working towards a more-perfect union. Too many Americans are and have been complacent, or stood against the extension of freedoms. We've still got it pretty goddamned good, all things consired.

(01-28-2021, 11:51 AM)adey67 Wrote: https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2014/12...f-silence/

I wouldn't be so sure.

Breitbart is a hopelessly biased right-wing outlet that is thoroughly uncredible and only repeats articles that agree with its views. I certainly wouldn't read your link with any amount of trust; and I'll certainly fact-check the claims therein. BB has been dishonest in the past.

ETA: It should be pointed out that that article is six years old. Also, from two years ago:

the Guardian Wrote:In 2018, a YouGov poll found British students were no keener to see speakers banned than the general public. In the US, a Knight Foundation survey found students were less likely than the overall population to support restrictions of free speech on campus, and Jeffrey Sachs, the US political scientist, found that there had been no “generational shift” in tolerance.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre...suggest-so

I kind of expected this response and that's OK I'm fine with it, it's not my experience as a citizen here and I'm certainly intimidated about expressing certain opinions in Britain and that's OK too the forum would be boring if we all agreed all the time.
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
Reply
#17

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 08:29 PM)adey67 Wrote:
(01-28-2021, 02:35 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Americans always forget a key phrase in our Consitution: "a more perfect union."

The inference the Founding Fathers were making is that we are not a perfect nation. We still aren't. We should be working towards a more-perfect union. Too many Americans are and have been complacent, or stood against the extension of freedoms. We've still got it pretty goddamned good, all things consired.

(01-28-2021, 11:51 AM)adey67 Wrote: https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2014/12...f-silence/

I wouldn't be so sure.

Breitbart is a hopelessly biased right-wing outlet that is thoroughly uncredible and only repeats articles that agree with its views. I certainly wouldn't read your link with any amount of trust; and I'll certainly fact-check the claims therein. BB has been dishonest in the past.

ETA: It should be pointed out that that article is six years old. Also, from two years ago:

the Guardian Wrote:In 2018, a YouGov poll found British students were no keener to see speakers banned than the general public. In the US, a Knight Foundation survey found students were less likely than the overall population to support restrictions of free speech on campus, and Jeffrey Sachs, the US political scientist, found that there had been no “generational shift” in tolerance.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre...suggest-so

I kind of expected this response and that's OK I'm fine with it, it's not my experience as a citizen here and I'm certainly intimidated about expressing certain opinions in Britain and that's OK too the forum would be boring if we all agreed all the time.

Sure, and I've got no argument with your anecdotal experiences.

I still don't trust Breitbart. If they wrote that the Sun would rise in the East tomorrow morning, I'd set my alarm-clock. They're that skanky.
On hiatus.
The following 2 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post:
  • adey67, Fireball
Reply
#18

America: The Hare to Europe's Tortoise
(01-28-2021, 08:44 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(01-28-2021, 08:29 PM)adey67 Wrote:
(01-28-2021, 02:35 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Americans always forget a key phrase in our Consitution: "a more perfect union."

The inference the Founding Fathers were making is that we are not a perfect nation. We still aren't. We should be working towards a more-perfect union. Too many Americans are and have been complacent, or stood against the extension of freedoms. We've still got it pretty goddamned good, all things consired.


Breitbart is a hopelessly biased right-wing outlet that is thoroughly uncredible and only repeats articles that agree with its views. I certainly wouldn't read your link with any amount of trust; and I'll certainly fact-check the claims therein. BB has been dishonest in the past.

ETA: It should be pointed out that that article is six years old. Also, from two years ago:


https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre...suggest-so

I kind of expected this response and that's OK I'm fine with it, it's not my experience as a citizen here and I'm certainly intimidated about expressing certain opinions in Britain and that's OK too the forum would be boring if we all agreed all the time.

Sure, and I've got no argument with your anecdotal experiences.

I still don't trust Breitbart. If they wrote that the Sun would rise in the East tomorrow morning, I'd set my alarm-clock. They're that skanky.
 Normally I wouldn't use them because as you say they are generally seriously skanky but on this occasion they quoted a you gov poll so I did but I take your point, plus as you said it's a bit out of date. Peace brother Thumbs Up Hug
The whole point of having cake is to eat it Cake_Feast
The following 1 user Likes adey67's post:
  • Thumpalumpacus
Reply




Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)