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The trump chronicles (topical thread)

The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 06:12 AM)Glossophile Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 12:46 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: The issue of evidence.  You want it because your starting point is that this is “nothing to see here,” regular by the book criminal procedure, and therefore evidence is needed to move you off that spot.  That’s not the right starting point.  The thing itself is the evidence of banana republic shenanigans, the walking and quacking like a duck inclines me to want evidence that it’s not a duck.

So whenever a political figure is formally charged with a crime, we should essentially assume illicit political motivation just because the prosecution is even happening? Your further clarification implies that you're at least a bit smarter than that, but even so, I think it's worth pointing out just how backwards that standard would be!  It would only further entrench the de facto legal privilege that the wealthy politician/donor class already has, namely the privilege of committing crimes and either evading accountability altogether or at least buying their way into special lenience.  I'm no expert on banana republics, but I think a governing class with majorly attenuated legal accountability is a damn good sign of one!

(04-03-2023, 12:46 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Would it be years after the fact, sprung at a highly politically sensitive time to a political rival? Check.

No small amount of this is due to the protocol of not prosecuting a sitting President (which I happen to think is asinine for the reason just given above).  That accounts for four years of delay at least.  Another likely contributor is that the prosecutors are keenly aware of the political implications and are therefore taking even greater care than usual in building their case, precisely because it has to withstand not only the usual legal challenges, which are already hefty, but also the accusations of undue political motivation.  


(04-03-2023, 12:46 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Would it be a highly odd maneuvering (Opinion from the NYT: “No matter what the precise charges are, the prosecution will raise unusual and arguably novel legal issues.”) as opposed to very clear and particular.  Even Trump critics are pointing out there is some convolution in (what we think to be the) charges, you’ve got a shady witness, you have to prove intent, you have issues of statutes of limitations, you’ve got overlapping jurisdiction.

What even was the point of this bit?  What, it's suspicious because it's complicated and difficult to prove?  Those are both things that could easily apply to the prosecution of a complete non-politician, and I'm sure they often do!  Were you expecting something digestible enough for a Matlock episode or something?  News flash: legal stuff doesn't always work like that, regardless of whether it's a former President or John Q, Public!

(04-03-2023, 12:46 AM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: Why the fuck bother?

Because - and I hope you're sitting down for this  - accountability matters.  Period, full stop, end of story.  If indeed a crime was committed, which the prosecutors will have all due burden to prove under the presumption of innocence afforded to everyone equally by law, then the perpetrator must be brought to justice.  The optics, timing, and/or political implications, however inopportune, have no place in the courtroom.  They should never weigh either for or against the pursuit of justice and accountability.  Even if the prosecutors are spurred on by a Democratic bias, if the crime itself was real, and that can be legitimately proven to a jury of Trump's peers, then all that ultimately matters is that a criminal is held accountable. It's still the right thing to do, even if done for the wrong reasons.

I think this is going to lead to a basic re-write of my ideas, so I'm not super-motivated to address every point.  I just don't agree with you guys priorities, this child-like naivety.  Good guy sees crime, get 'em!  Seven years later?  No other crimes in NY to investigate?  It's an effort to disenfranchise tens of millions of voters.  Let the people at the ballot box decide this, this should have been ignored as countless more serious violent crimes aren't prosecuted. 

As I asked Thump (unanswered): Would they be doing this if Trump had lost in 2016?  If not, why not?

There better be some fucking fireworks in the charges tomorrow, this better not be nothing but Hide the Hooker money.  "Period, full stop, end of story."  Really?  You really think literally every alleged crime brought to the DA is prosecuted?  "Then the perpetrator must be brought to justice."  Really, like all of them, that's what's going on in this country's legal systems?  No favoritism, no manipulation, no political grandstanding?

You took the time to put your thoughts in the quote by quote thing so I will get back to this post with (probably pretty predictable) replies.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 07:53 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 01:37 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: Well, I guess I wasted my time once again on you. You may as well just say that this is PIDOOMA on your part and call it a day. You're spouting feelz, nothing more; that's nice, hope you enjoyed venting. No evidence, just more "this is teh witch hunt" stuff you've leaned on whenever Trump is called to account. I'm pointing out that hen evidence of a crime is discerned, it ought to be pursued. You're arguing that because this makes us look "banana-republic" we should give it a pass (which only makes us look only more banana-republic, if you would give it about 1.8 seconds of thought.)


After your essential admission that this is just you spouting your own feelings (and GOP apologetics, for that matter, though you haven't admitted that), bereft of any objective support, I don't see any point to answering this invitation of yours. Let me know when you have any support, any evidence  at all for your supposition and speculation that this grand jury laid false charges based on political leanings, because that is what you're claiming.

I understand your position, your speculation, and your beliefs about what the best priorities for the country are.  I don't know if you completely understand my position based on what you wrote, but if you do and disagree, cool.

I understand your position, that these charges must b political in nature. I'm awaiting your evidence of that. Until then, I already know this whole schtick of yours and will not engage it.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 09:20 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 07:53 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: I understand your position, your speculation, and your beliefs about what the best priorities for the country are.  I don't know if you completely understand my position based on what you wrote, but if you do and disagree, cool.

I understand your position, that these charges must b political in nature. I'm awaiting your evidence of that. Until then, I already know this whole schtick of yours and will not engage it.

Oh please.  We've got like six years of almost constant engagement, we're practically married.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 08:14 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 06:12 AM)Glossophile Wrote: So whenever a political figure is formally charged with a crime, we should essentially assume illicit political motivation just because the prosecution is even happening? Your further clarification implies that you're at least a bit smarter than that, but even so, I think it's worth pointing out just how backwards that standard would be!  It would only further entrench the de facto legal privilege that the wealthy politician/donor class already has, namely the privilege of committing crimes and either evading accountability altogether or at least buying their way into special lenience.  I'm no expert on banana republics, but I think a governing class with majorly attenuated legal accountability is a damn good sign of one!


No small amount of this is due to the protocol of not prosecuting a sitting President (which I happen to think is asinine for the reason just given above).  That accounts for four years of delay at least.  Another likely contributor is that the prosecutors are keenly aware of the political implications and are therefore taking even greater care than usual in building their case, precisely because it has to withstand not only the usual legal challenges, which are already hefty, but also the accusations of undue political motivation.  



What even was the point of this bit?  What, it's suspicious because it's complicated and difficult to prove?  Those are both things that could easily apply to the prosecution of a complete non-politician, and I'm sure they often do!  Were you expecting something digestible enough for a Matlock episode or something?  News flash: legal stuff doesn't always work like that, regardless of whether it's a former President or John Q, Public!


Because - and I hope you're sitting down for this  - accountability matters.  Period, full stop, end of story.  If indeed a crime was committed, which the prosecutors will have all due burden to prove under the presumption of innocence afforded to everyone equally by law, then the perpetrator must be brought to justice.  The optics, timing, and/or political implications, however inopportune, have no place in the courtroom.  They should never weigh either for or against the pursuit of justice and accountability.  Even if the prosecutors are spurred on by a Democratic bias, if the crime itself was real, and that can be legitimately proven to a jury of Trump's peers, then all that ultimately matters is that a criminal is held accountable. It's still the right thing to do, even if done for the wrong reasons.

I think this is going to lead to a basic re-write of my ideas, so I'm not super-motivated to address every point.  I just don't agree with you guys priorities, this child-like naivety.  Good guy sees crime, get 'em!  Seven years later?  No other crimes in NY to investigate?  It's an effort to disenfranchise tens of millions of voters.  Let the people at the ballot box decide this, this should have been ignored as countless more serious violent crimes aren't prosecuted. 

As long as there are violent crimes in NYC, we should ignore white collar crime, especially if the suspect is running for high office is more text book banana republic than your might realize.  Typically in such republics, the big boys(politicians and crony capitalists) bleed the country dry while the long arm of the law goes after the small time crooks for stealing or even just hawking petty items in the "wrong" place, just to make it through the day.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
Holding a career criminal accountable is an effort to disenfranchise voters. Peak reich wing whine.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 10:26 PM)tomilay Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 08:14 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: I think this is going to lead to a basic re-write of my ideas, so I'm not super-motivated to address every point.  I just don't agree with you guys priorities, this child-like naivety.  Good guy sees crime, get 'em!  Seven years later?  No other crimes in NY to investigate?  It's an effort to disenfranchise tens of millions of voters.  Let the people at the ballot box decide this, this should have been ignored as countless more serious violent crimes aren't prosecuted. 

As long as there are violent crimes in NYC, we should ignore white collar crime, especially if the suspect is running for high office is more text book banana republic than your might realize.  Typically in such republics, the big boys(politicians and crony capitalists) bleed the country dry while the long arm of the law goes after the small time crooks for stealing or even just hawking petty items in the "wrong" place, just to make it through the day.

That's too extreme a dichotomy for me, I don't think it should be that absolute.  There aren't enough resources to successfully deal with all violent and white collar crime, so decisions must be made.  I argue this is a poor decision/trade-off.  Also "violent crime" is far different from "just hawking petty items...to make it through the day."  Not every aspect of an analogy ("banana republic") need be perfect for the gist of it to make sense.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 10:31 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 10:26 PM)tomilay Wrote: As long as there are violent crimes in NYC, we should ignore white collar crime, especially if the suspect is running for high office is more text book banana republic than your might realize.  Typically in such republics, the big boys(politicians and crony capitalists) bleed the country dry while the long arm of the law goes after the small time crooks for stealing or even just hawking petty items in the "wrong" place, just to make it through the day.

That's too extreme a dichotomy for me, I don't think it should be that absolute.  There aren't enough resources to successfully deal with all violent and white collar crime, so decisions must be made.  I argue this is a poor decision/trade-off.  Also "violent crime" is far different from "just hawking petty items...to make it through the day."  Not every aspect of an analogy ("banana republic") need be perfect for the gist of it to make sense.

What do you think should be done with white collar criminal suspects, especially those running for high office?
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I'm just a working class guy. When any big shot gets into the crosshairs I want him prosecuted to the fullest extent.
Why the fuck would you not? Explain why not in those terms, Jerry.
Tell me how your prosecutor filter works in detail. Why the fuck would he get a pass, because he is running for office? Is there any other reason?

the world is full of stories about the little guy getting shit on, and by assholes the likes of Trump. He has cheated and skated his way though life and his time is up.
He does not pay his bills, whenever he can skate out of them.

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/c...547037002/


There are dozens of instances of this.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 10:49 PM)tomilay Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 10:31 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: That's too extreme a dichotomy for me, I don't think it should be that absolute.  There aren't enough resources to successfully deal with all violent and white collar crime, so decisions must be made.  I argue this is a poor decision/trade-off.  Also "violent crime" is far different from "just hawking petty items...to make it through the day."  Not every aspect of an analogy ("banana republic") need be perfect for the gist of it to make sense.

What do you think should be done with white collar criminal suspects, especially those running for high office?

I don't think you have blanket "must do"s for every type of crime, nor does it even seem possible (which irritates me about some of the innocent-eyed comments on this topic, "go get all them criminals, God bless our super awesome justice system!"  Each alleged crime needs to be considered on its own merit.  (This seems in line with DA Bragg's policing and justice procedures.)  For lack of unlimited resources, not every violent crime is pursued, nor every other type of crime.  For the reasons I gave, I am very suspicious of the wisdom of pursuing this particular alleged crime.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 11:21 PM)skyking Wrote: I'm just a working class guy. When any big shot gets into the crosshairs I want him prosecuted to the fullest extent.
Why the fuck would you not? Explain why not in those terms, Jerry.
Tell me how your prosecutor filter works in detail. Why the fuck would he get a pass, because he is running for office? Is there any other reason?

the world is full of stories about the little guy getting shit on, and by assholes the likes of Trump. He has cheated and skated his way though life and his time is up.
He does not pay his bills, whenever he can skate out of them.

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/c...547037002/


There are dozens of instances of this.

Then get him on those for fuck's sake.  Not penny-ante paying off a hooker shit, after massaging it up into an alleged felony and (literal) federal case.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 09:39 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 09:20 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I understand your position, that these charges must b political in nature. I'm awaiting your evidence of that. Until then, I already know this whole schtick of yours and will not engage it.

Oh please.  We've got like six years of almost constant engagement, we're practically married.

I guess I should've added "any more" to make it clear enough to you. Oh well, you get my point .. one hopes. Bring evidence to support your feelz already.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 11:30 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 11:21 PM)skyking Wrote: I'm just a working class guy. When any big shot gets into the crosshairs I want him prosecuted to the fullest extent.
Why the fuck would you not? Explain why not in those terms, Jerry.
Tell me how your prosecutor filter works in detail. Why the fuck would he get a pass, because he is running for office? Is there any other reason?

the world is full of stories about the little guy getting shit on, and by assholes the likes of Trump. He has cheated and skated his way though life and his time is up.
He does not pay his bills, whenever he can skate out of them.

https://www.northjersey.com/story/news/c...547037002/


There are dozens of instances of this.

Then get him on those for fuck's sake.  Not penny-ante paying off a hooker shit, after massaging it up into an alleged felony and (literal) federal case.

He is insulated from prosecution by bankruptcy. It is the american way. I say get him any way possible. If the case holds up in court, it is legit. That is also the american way. You can call it penny ante hooker shit all you like, if he diverted campaign funds to pay for his frivolities and then lied about it, that will be his comeuppance. He chose to expose himself to campaign finance laws. Nobody forced him.
He is arrogant enough to think all of every bit of money is his to do with as he wishes. Campaign funds have some strings attached and lets hope he chokes on them.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 11:27 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 10:49 PM)tomilay Wrote: What do you think should be done with white collar criminal suspects, especially those running for high office?

I don't think you have blanket "must do"s for every type of crime, nor does it even seem possible (which irritates me about some of the innocent-eyed comments on this topic, "go get all them criminals, God bless our super awesome justice system!"  Each alleged crime needs to be considered on its own merit.  (This seems in line with DA Bragg's policing and justice procedures.)  For lack of unlimited resources, not every violent crime is pursued, nor every other type of crime.  For the reasons I gave, I am very suspicious of the wisdom of pursuing this particular alleged crime.

Tomilay, just to add, I think we'll all have firmer opinions tomorrow when (if) the charges are released.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 11:49 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 11:27 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: I don't think you have blanket "must do"s for every type of crime, nor does it even seem possible (which irritates me about some of the innocent-eyed comments on this topic, "go get all them criminals, God bless our super awesome justice system!"  Each alleged crime needs to be considered on its own merit.  (This seems in line with DA Bragg's policing and justice procedures.)  For lack of unlimited resources, not every violent crime is pursued, nor every other type of crime.  For the reasons I gave, I am very suspicious of the wisdom of pursuing this particular alleged crime.

Tomilay, just to add, I think we'll all have firmer opinions tomorrow when (if) the charges are released.

They should be released tomorrow. Until then, I reserve my opinion.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 11:27 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: For the reasons I gave, I am very suspicious of the wisdom of pursuing this particular alleged crime.

Alleged crime?

Ignorant fool or trolling? There are no other options.
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(04-04-2023, 10:03 AM)Inkubus Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 11:27 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: For the reasons I gave, I am very suspicious of the wisdom of pursuing this particular alleged crime.

Alleged crime?

Ignorant fool or trolling? There are no other options.

He's yet to be convicted. Until then, he's presumed innocent, so "alleged" is apt.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-03-2023, 09:20 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 07:53 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: I understand your position, your speculation, and your beliefs about what the best priorities for the country are.  I don't know if you completely understand my position based on what you wrote, but if you do and disagree, cool.

I understand your position, that these charges must b political in nature. I'm awaiting your evidence of that. Until then, I already know this whole schtick of yours and will not engage it.

It seems that:

1. Trump kept govt documents after they were legally and in spite of subpoenas, hid documents.
2. He hid the ones he most valued.
3. He is routinely criminal in real estate taxes.
4. He routinely falsifies documents about property value, raising them for loans and reducing them regarding taxes.
5. He directed employees to lie in documents.
6. He has engaged in prostitution.
7. He engaged in tax filing falsification.
8. He attempted to stop the proper actions of the Federal Govt.

And the list goes on... I can't wait until I I see the actual list of charges later today.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-04-2023, 10:36 AM)Cavebear Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 09:20 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: I understand your position, that these charges must b political in nature. I'm awaiting your evidence of that. Until then, I already know this whole schtick of yours and will not engage it.

It seems that:

1.  Trump kept govt documents after they were legally and in spite of subpoenas, hid documents.
2.  He hid the ones he most valued.
3.  He is routinely criminal in real estate taxes.
4.  He routinely falsifies documents about property value, raising them for loans and reducing them regarding taxes.
5.  He directed employees to lie in documents.
6.  He has engaged in prostitution.
7.  He engaged in tax filing falsification.  
8.  He attempted to stop the proper actions of the Federal Govt.

And the list goes on...  I can't wait until I I see the actual list of charges later today.

Wait - he engaged in prostitution?
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(04-04-2023, 11:42 AM)Dom Wrote:
(04-04-2023, 10:36 AM)Cavebear Wrote: It seems that:

1.  Trump kept govt documents after they were legally and in spite of subpoenas, hid documents.
2.  He hid the ones he most valued.
3.  He is routinely criminal in real estate taxes.
4.  He routinely falsifies documents about property value, raising them for loans and reducing them regarding taxes.
5.  He directed employees to lie in documents.
6.  He has engaged in prostitution.
7.  He engaged in tax filing falsification.  
8.  He attempted to stop the proper actions of the Federal Govt.

And the list goes on...  I can't wait until I I see the actual list of charges later today.

Wait - he engaged in prostitution?

He paid at least 2 women to engage in sex with him.  Prostitution is the criminal act of providing, or offering to provide, sexual services in exchange for compensation. Prostitution laws penalize those who sell sexual services, as well as those who purchase the services.  Neither side is innocent of the illegality.  There is a possibility of extortion involved, but the original crime still exists.
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-04-2023, 10:03 AM)Inkubus Wrote:
(04-03-2023, 11:27 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote: For the reasons I gave, I am very suspicious of the wisdom of pursuing this particular alleged crime.

Alleged crime?

Ignorant fool or trolling? There are no other options.

There's a third option. Winking
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The trump chronicles (topical thread)
(04-04-2023, 10:16 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:
(04-04-2023, 10:03 AM)Inkubus Wrote: Alleged crime?

Ignorant fool or trolling? There are no other options.

He's yet to be convicted. Until then, he's presumed innocent, so "alleged" is apt.

I think the crime is not alleged, but rather its commission is.

Also, I tend to make a distinction between the word "innocent" for purposes of trial and factual innocence.  In legal cases, it's not a finding of fact but rather a presumption.  The reason I bring this up is because there is tendency to conflate this into other areas(non-legal) of discussion to muddy the facts.  People can commit crimes and get away with them.  People can even obstruct their way to "innocence".  Such people can be legally innocent(no legal liability) but factually guilty.
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(04-04-2023, 01:34 PM)tomilay Wrote:
(04-04-2023, 10:16 AM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: He's yet to be convicted. Until then, he's presumed innocent, so "alleged" is apt.

I think the crime is not alleged, but rather its commission is.

Also, I tend to make a distinction between the word "innocent" for purposes of trial and factual innocence.  In legal cases, it's not a finding of fact but rather a presumption.  The reason I bring this up is because there is tendency to conflate this into other areas(non-legal) of discussion to muddy the facts.  People can commit crimes and get away with them.  People can even obstruct their way to "innocence".  Such people can be legally innocent(no legal liability) but factually guilty.

No, the crime is "alledged", as he is indicted for it. It is the commission that has to be proven in court. And even if not proven, reasonable people can still understand that a crime happened. All it takes for "not guilty" is one idiot who does "jury-nullification", because they like the defendant. That was/is a common practice in racially-oriented cases and still happens today when police are on trial for brutality.
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Presumption of innocence is for the courts. People can presume whatever they want.

CNN brought the example of the guy who killed the guy who killed Kennedy. He killed him on TV, everyone saw it and knew he did it. It would have been foolish to presume he was innocent.

Yet, for the courts and especially the jury, he was still presumed to be innocent, as is required for a fair trial.
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(04-04-2023, 02:39 PM)Dom Wrote: Presumption of innocence is for the courts. People can presume whatever they want.

CNN brought the example of the guy who killed the guy who killed Kennedy. He killed him on TV, everyone saw it and knew he did it. It would have been foolish to presume he was innocent.

Yet, for the courts and especially the jury, he was still presumed to be innocent, as is required for a fair trial.

I have some odd ideas of "evidence". Witnesses don't matter. Studies have shown they can all see things differently (and inaccurately). I want videotape, fingerprints and DNA to be sure. And we are getting there...
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The commission of the crime of the pron peener payoffs has already been established in court. A man went to jail for it, another recieved immunity in return for damaging testimony and evidence. His unindicted co-conspirator did not. This presents an automatic rationale for felony upcharging if there were many crimes committed in service and furtherance to that...again..already established...crime.

Hiding money is a misdemeanor. Hiding the money you intend to pay a hitman..is not. Trump, always on brand, has publicly admitted to the commission of said crime multiple times. He thinks it's his right to commit that crime. All of the money is his money - which has always been true and has lead to judgements against him entirely unrelated to porn peeners. His campaign was a grift, his presidency was a grift, his charities were a grift, his legal defense™ is a grift. Even his grifts have grifts.

Find me a single person, even a reich wing nut, who doesn't already know that trump is a thief. A career criminal. That any chunk of his life investigated in even the most cursory way will uncover a number of crimes, all of which are likely to be committed in furtherance of yet more crime. No one is losing their shit because they think he's innocent....
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