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Racial relations in 'Murica
#26

Racial relations in 'Murica
(12-28-2020, 09:49 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Slavery is outlawed, segregation is outlawed, housing discrimination and employment discrimination and racial profiling are outlawed.

Yet with the exception of slavery, all of those things still exist.  So much for passing toothless laws.

They laws are not 100% effective at stopping these things, but they're not toothless either.  Yes, all these problems are still with us, including slavery.  (Notably human trafficking and, arguably, the prison system.)  The fact that significant amounts of discrimination and prejudice still exist does not make us the equivalent of, say, the South in the era of the Negro Codes, just as the fact that we aren't as bad as the South was in that era mean that everything's perfect.  This isn't a simple binary of all-good or all-bad.  I don't know what metrics would be best to use here, but for illustrative purposes moving from "95% of the targeted class of people experience this type of discrimination and 95% of the rest of society thinks that's a good thing" and bringing those numbers down to, say, 20% or 30% or 40% each is a huge gain.  That short of shift has happened, and laws have had a significant hand in that. That improvement's not a sign that we've won and and that we get to sit back and rest on our laurels, but it's also not the mark of a task that is doomed to failure.
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains premature today." - Isaac Asimov
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#27

Racial relations in 'Murica
The situation of African Americans hasn't improved as much as many people would like to think. In fact, on several points like wage gap, children born in poverty and incarceration rates, these things have deteriorated since they started to be measured in the late 60's. Others like school segregation are basically flat. Some like diplomation rates and average scores have improved.
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#28

Racial relations in 'Murica
Then there's the fact that much of our American lifestyle is supported by wage-slavery in other countries where Apple workers are jumping out of windows (forgive my black humor) in China, Bangladeshi textile workers producing our cheap clothing on a dollar a day, and so on.

@Reltzik is right that we've made progress, and too right in saying that we're not nearly there. We Americans in one sense have kind of off-shored our slavery issue while we pat our backs and text our friends.

It's true that chattel slavery here in America is illegal. But I think it's also true that we benefit from it, and wage-slavery, without thinking too much about it, or feeling much angst.

The commercial prison industry here is another example of our partial blindness.
Freedom isn't free.
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#29

Racial relations in 'Murica
(12-29-2020, 07:51 PM)epronovost Wrote: Actually the legal institution of slavery still exists in the form of prison labor as mentioned by Abaris... 

I'm not sure how one can equate current prison "labor" with slavery in any modern sense of the word.

Prisoners in Australia are paid for work undertaken in work programs or attendance at prison
programs at three different levels calculated according to the degree of responsibility, complexity
of the task, skills required and hours of duty involved.

The range of industries offered to prisoners in Australia varies from prison to prison, but common
examples include metal fabrication, manufacture of timber products, agriculture and horticulture
programs. Some inmates also work in prison facility services such as the kitchen, laundry, cleaning,
maintenance, and gardening.  Inmates' weekly wages range from $24.60 to $70.55 in NSW.

It'd be unrealistic to not expect prisoners to work gainfully, rather than just sitting around all day
watching TV or playing pool.         But they're not slaves by any definition.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#30

Racial relations in 'Murica
(12-30-2020, 12:36 PM)SYZ Wrote:
(12-29-2020, 07:51 PM)epronovost Wrote: Actually the legal institution of slavery still exists in the form of prison labor as mentioned by Abaris... 

I'm not sure how one can equate current prison "labor" with slavery in any modern sense of the word.

Prisoners in Australia are paid for work undertaken in work programs or attendance at prison
programs at three different levels calculated according to the degree of responsibility, complexity
of the task, skills required and hours of duty involved.

The range of industries offered to prisoners in Australia varies from prison to prison, but common
examples include metal fabrication, manufacture of timber products, agriculture and horticulture
programs. Some inmates also work in prison facility services such as the kitchen, laundry, cleaning,
maintenance, and gardening.  Inmates' weekly wages range from $24.60 to $70.55 in NSW.

It'd be unrealistic to not expect prisoners to work gainfully, rather than just sitting around all day
watching TV or playing pool.         But they're not slaves by any definition.

In the US, in some States, prisonners can be forced to work under penalty of disciplinary measures (solitary confinement) and for no salary whatsoever not even a symbolic penny or two. There is a difference between prison labor, where they receive a pay and have a measure of choice on the nature of the work, and prison slave work. A person deprived of liberty who is forced to work under threat of punishment for no salary is, by definition, slavery. Slavery, in the US, isn't banned by the 13th ammendment when it comes to prisonners. It explicitely carves an exception for it.
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#31

Racial relations in 'Murica
I find the equivocation of slavery with current forms of "wage slavery" or keeping people in privatised prison systems, forced to work, etc. a bit problematic.
Slavery in a classic sense included the slave being the property of the owner, which is not part of many of those systems. Even in case of (forced) prostitution/ human trafficking, the "slave" is property *only* within the framework of the criminal black enocomy, not by the society as a whole. Otoh a roman slave probably was de facto treated much better than many people forced to make cheap garments somewhere in Bangladesh nowadays.

In and of themselves these modern practices are horrible but are different and themselves different from classic slavery, there is no disagreement between rational people. Why the need to equivocate all those horrible practices with slavery at all? To me that seems to be just an unnecessarily broad brush.
R.I.P. Hannes
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#32

Racial relations in 'Murica
(12-30-2020, 03:35 PM)Deesse23 Wrote: Even in case of (forced) prostitution/ human trafficking, the "slave" is property *only* within the framework of the criminal black enocomy, not by the society as a whole.

Remember to tell people in such situation that "technically" they aren't a property. That's some weapon grade pedantry there. To the victim of human trafficking there is not a shred of difference between their current enslavement and if the practice was pefectly legal. It has no impact on their living conditions and social status. The only difference that could possibly happen is if a police raid happens and they are deported back to their home country where they will be taken as slaves there (or killed).
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