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Thou shalt not kill.
#1

Thou shalt not kill.
Let's suppose the fairystory happened the way it says in the New Testament and Jesus was sentenced to death and crucified.  Let's also suppose that the biblical god (an omniscient, all seeing all knowing god, btw) gave out the commandments - one of which was "thou shalt not kill" .  Let's further suppose that Jesus was murdered by the Romans or as most Christians like to think, he was "sacrificed".   How do Christians get around killing the son of a god if their god says killing is  against one of his commandments?
                                                         T4618
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#2

Thou shalt not kill.
Mysterious ways.

Like always.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#3

Thou shalt not kill.
“For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.”
-Carl Sagan

"The best counter to extremist speech is not censorship. The best counter is more speech." -Thumpalumpacus
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#4

Thou shalt not kill.
The Romans didn't care about the Ten Commandments and God wasn't really dead after the Crucifixion.  Whistling
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
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#5

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-23-2020, 08:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Let's suppose the fairystory happened the way it says in the New Testament and Jesus was sentenced to death and crucified.  Let's also suppose that the biblical god (an omniscient, all seeing all knowing god, btw) gave out the commandments - one of which was "thou shalt not kill" .  Let's further suppose that Jesus was murdered by the Romans or as most Christians like to think, he was "sacrificed".   How do Christians get around killing the son of a god if their god says killing is  against one of his commandments?

Was Jesus found guilty of a crime and sentenced to capital punishment? That's not murder. The deity in your story prohibits murder (ie: killing) but regards battle and capital punishment as different things.
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#6

Thou shalt not kill.
I suppose God could get around it by saying it wasn't really a killing, more like a three-day nap.
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#7

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-23-2020, 08:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: How do Christians get around killing the son of a god if their god says killing is  against one of his commandments?

Killing is okay if god commands it.

Remember when god commanded Abraham to kill his son? Remember when god commanded that one army kill another in their sleep?
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#8

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-23-2020, 08:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: How do Christians get around killing the son of a god if their god says killing is  against one of his commandments?

Well it's not christians who killed Jesus it's either the evil joooooz or a bunch of pagans. What christians do is worship the sacrifice of Jesus, unjustly killed by evil men, and honor his commandments to gain eternal life and pardon for their own sins. Christian doctrine doesn't expect you to keep all the commandments and all the lessons of Jesus and God. They expect you strive and fail, but count on your honest efforts and constant faith in the redemptive nature of Jesus' sacrifice and the mercy of God to pardon you your faults. You seem to have a radically puritan and unorthodox view of christian doctrine.
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#9

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-23-2020, 08:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Let's suppose the fairystory happened the way it says in the New Testament and Jesus was sentenced to death and crucified.  Let's also suppose that the biblical god (an omniscient, all seeing all knowing god, btw) gave out the commandments - one of which was "thou shalt not kill" .  Let's further suppose that Jesus was murdered by the Romans or as most Christians like to think, he was "sacrificed".   How do Christians get around killing the son of a god if their god says killing is  against one of his commandments?

Romans weren't christians so there is nothing to get around.
Man’s innate yearning for freedom can be suppressed but never destroyed. Totalitarianism cannot renounce violence. If it does, it perishes. Eternal, ceaseless violence, overt or covert, is the basis of totalitarianism. Man does not renounce freedom voluntarily.

Vasily Grossman
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#10

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-23-2020, 09:37 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote: The Romans didn't care about the Ten Commandments and God wasn't really dead after the Crucifixion.  Whistling

/thread
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#11

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-23-2020, 09:41 PM)Aliza Wrote: The deity in your story prohibits murder (ie: killing) but regards battle and capital punishment as different things.

That's not how most of the first christians have seen it. They were against capital punishment and excommunicated members who did military service. The turnaround came when they started to suck up to the Roman emperor. That's when capital punishment became fine and dandy and soldiers were welcome.
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#12

Thou shalt not kill.
Moses went and got the commandments.
As soon as he got back he poured molten gold down some of his people's throats and killed them...is what I thought.
But then again, I suppose he regarded them as Bull worshippers.
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#13

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-24-2020, 12:15 PM)abaris Wrote:
(12-23-2020, 09:41 PM)Aliza Wrote: The deity in your story prohibits murder (ie: killing) but regards battle and capital punishment as different things.

That's not how most of the first christians have seen it. They were against capital punishment and excommunicated members who did military service. The turnaround came when they started to suck up to the Roman emperor. That's when capital punishment became fine and dandy and soldiers were welcome.

It was a problem for the early church.  The "jesus" they inherited was a socialist, pacifist, pussy.  That was fine for a gaggle of fools who wanted to overturn the social order but when they became the social order all of a sudden they had to face reality.  They "solved" the problem by pointing out that Latin has two words for enemy:  Inimicus, which refers to a personal enemy.... like the asshole in the next hovel who plays loud rap music at 2 in the morning, and hostis, which refers to a common enemy, like Russia, Isis or Trumptards.  Some church fuck simply explained that jesus, being a lousy communicator for a "god" only meant for you to forgive inimicus but your hostis needed to be killed on sight!

Of course, Aramaic, which this jesus character would have spoken if he existed seems to have only one word for enemy, ar, a fact lost on the early church fucks.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#14

Thou shalt not kill.
Yahweh never stopped me from killing. Bacchus did a few times.
  [Image: attachment.php?aid=31] Dog  
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#15

Thou shalt not kill.
Some folk need killin'.
Freedom isn't free.
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#16

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-23-2020, 09:37 PM)Gwaithmir Wrote: The Romans didn't care about the Ten Commandments and God wasn't really dead after the Crucifixion.  Whistling

I think the most salient point here is that none of god's chosen murdered Jesus, it was the villains who did it. So it can still be wrong.

Also, as usual, "context". Murder is okay by most Christians if its done in the throes of war, or if it's a black man running away from the police. So ... killing sacrificial lambs as part of temple ritual was also no problem -- "in context".
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#17

Thou shalt not kill.
Whoever is in charge, decides who is God.

You know ... like, the way Herman Goering decided who was a jew.

Some would like us all to believe, we're all traveling through space, in one big concentration camp. Apparently, it helps them sleep well. Deadpan Coffee Drinker
________________________________________________
A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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#18

Thou shalt not kill.
People tend to say that those rules don't apply to God; they're meant for us. Of course, that means the "thou shall not lie" rule applies only to us and we have no reason to trust YHWH. Christians will say that God is steadfast and doesn't lie, but... they only know that because he says so, and could just be lying. Then it all comes down to faith, which they happily admit.

Basically, the story they craft is extremely untrustworthy, doesn't make sense, they admit this (in a roundabout way), but believe it anyway.
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#19

Thou shalt not kill.
Well, what I was thinking when I made this thread (I probably wasn't thinking this concept through)  was that Yahweh who was allegedly omniscient would know that his son would die from the get go and indeed, needed  to die to sacrifice himself for everyone's sins and the Adam and Eve disaster.  So he kinda knows a Jesus murder has to happen, according the the Christian concept of redemption and all that rot.   So in my atheist mind god approves of this murder.  That's what I was getting at when I posted this thread..........I think.   Hmm   

The whole story is so convoluted it's hard to imagine that people believe this nonsense.
                                                         T4618
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#20

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-25-2020, 04:47 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Well, what I was thinking when I made this thread (I probably wasn't thinking this concept through)  was that Yahweh who was allegedly omniscient would know that his son would die from the get go and indeed, needed  to die to sacrifice himself for everyone's sins and the Adam and Eve disaster.  So he kinda knows a Jesus murder has to happen, according the the Christian concept of redemption and all that rot.   So in my atheist mind god approves of this murder.  That's what I was getting at when I posted this thread..........I think.   Hmm   

The whole story is so convoluted it's hard to imagine that people believe this nonsense.

It's only convoluted if you think about it.
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#21

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-25-2020, 04:47 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Well, what I was thinking when I made this thread (I probably wasn't thinking this concept through)  was that Yahweh who was allegedly omniscient would know that his son would die from the get go and indeed, needed  to die to sacrifice himself for everyone's sins and the Adam and Eve disaster.  So he kinda knows a Jesus murder has to happen, according the the Christian concept of redemption and all that rot.   So in my atheist mind god approves of this murder.  That's what I was getting at when I posted this thread..........I think.   Hmm   

The whole story is so convoluted it's hard to imagine that people believe this nonsense.
Like a lot of things in and outside of religion, if you actually THINK about them for more than ten seconds it makes no fucking sense.

But way too many people lack self awareness and critical thinking skills, and are often as not averse to reflection of any kind, so ... no problemo.

Hell, many Christians have never read the Bible or systematically studied it. They are no different than illiterates in the Dark Ages who uncritically got 100% of their theology from the pulpit. They go through the rituals and other totems of belonging, but question absolutely nothing. So even if they DO have some kind of devotional life, it is still not contemplatable that someone would ever doubt or question any of it ... so what's the point?

I did this for thirty years and it never occurred to me that I wasn't really THINKING about any of it. Once I actually started thinking about it, as I think Hitchens said, it all disappeared in a puff of logic.
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#22

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-23-2020, 08:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Let's suppose the fairy story happened the way it says in the New Testament and Jesus was sentenced to death and crucified...

That's a "supposition" I'd never make Dancer!  I can't even be bothered to
attempt any  rationalising of Christian mythology.        It ain't worth it LOL.
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#23

Thou shalt not kill.
Quote:I think the most salient point here is that none of god's chosen murdered Jesus, it was the villains who did it. So it can still be wrong.


If you take the time to read the four gospel accounts in the order they were written  ( Mk, Ma, Lk, Jo) you see that the Jews are portrayed as being increasingly more strident in demanding that J.C. get nailed to the boards.

Quote:9 “Would you like me to release to you this ‘King of the Jews’?” Pilate asked. 10 (For he realized by now that the leading priests had arrested Jesus out of envy.) 11 But at this point the leading priests stirred up the crowd to demand the release of Barabbas instead of Jesus. 12 Pilate asked them, “Then what should I do with this man you call the king of the Jews?”
13 They shouted back, “Crucify him!”
14 “Why?” Pilate demanded. “What crime has he committed?”
But the mob roared even louder, “Crucify him!”
15 So to pacify the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He ordered Jesus flogged with a lead-tipped whip, then turned him over to the Roman soldiers to be crucified.

Mark 15

Quote:20 Meanwhile, the leading priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas to be released and for Jesus to be put to death. 21 So the governor asked again, “Which of these two do you want me to release to you?”
The crowd shouted back, “Barabbas!”
22 Pilate responded, “Then what should I do with Jesus who is called the Messiah?”
They shouted back, “Crucify him!”
23 “Why?” Pilate demanded. “What crime has he committed?”
But the mob roared even louder, “Crucify him!”
24 Pilate saw that he wasn’t getting anywhere and that a riot was developing. So he sent for a bowl of water and washed his hands before the crowd, saying, “I am innocent of this man’s blood. The responsibility is yours!”
25 And all the people yelled back, “We will take responsibility for his death—we and our children!”[b]
26 So Pilate released Barabbas to them. He ordered Jesus flogged with a lead-tipped whip, then turned him over to the Roman soldiers to be crucified.

Matty 27

Quote:13 Then Pilate called together the leading priests and other religious leaders, along with the people, 14 and he announced his verdict. “You brought this man to me, accusing him of leading a revolt. I have examined him thoroughly on this point in your presence and find him innocent. 15 Herod came to the same conclusion and sent him back to us. Nothing this man has done calls for the death penalty. 16 So I will have him flogged, and then I will release him.”[a]
18 Then a mighty roar rose from the crowd, and with one voice they shouted, “Kill him, and release Barabbas to us!” 19 (Barabbas was in prison for taking part in an insurrection in Jerusalem against the government, and for murder.) 20 Pilate argued with them, because he wanted to release Jesus. 21 But they kept shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”
22 For the third time he demanded, “Why? What crime has he committed? I have found no reason to sentence him to death. So I will have him flogged, and then I will release him.”
23 But the mob shouted louder and louder, demanding that Jesus be crucified, and their voices prevailed. 24 So Pilate sentenced Jesus to die as they demanded. 25 As they had requested, he released Barabbas, the man in prison for insurrection and murder. But he turned Jesus over to them to do as they wished.

Luke 23

Quote:38 “What is truth?” Pilate asked. Then he went out again to the people and told them, “He is not guilty of any crime. 39 But you have a custom of asking me to release one prisoner each year at Passover. Would you like me to release this ‘King of the Jews’?”
40 But they shouted back, “No! Not this man. We want Barabbas!” (Barabbas was a revolutionary.)
Jesus Sentenced to Death
19 Then Pilate had Jesus flogged with a lead-tipped whip. 2 The soldiers wove a crown of thorns and put it on his head, and they put a purple robe on him. 3 “Hail! King of the Jews!” they mocked, as they slapped him across the face.
4 Pilate went outside again and said to the people, “I am going to bring him out to you now, but understand clearly that I find him not guilty.” 5 Then Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe. And Pilate said, “Look, here is the man!”
6 When they saw him, the leading priests and Temple guards began shouting, “Crucify him! Crucify him!”
“Take him yourselves and crucify him,” Pilate said. “I find him not guilty.”
7 The Jewish leaders replied, “By our law he ought to die because he called himself the Son of God.”
8 When Pilate heard this, he was more frightened than ever. 9 He took Jesus back into the headquarters[c] again and asked him, “Where are you from?” But Jesus gave no answer. 10 “Why don’t you talk to me?” Pilate demanded. “Don’t you realize that I have the power to release you or crucify you?”
11 Then Jesus said, “You would have no power over me at all unless it were given to you from above. So the one who handed me over to you has the greater sin.”
12 Then Pilate tried to release him, but the Jewish leaders shouted, “If you release this man, you are no ‘friend of Caesar.’[d] Anyone who declares himself a king is a rebel against Caesar.”
13 When they said this, Pilate brought Jesus out to them again. Then Pilate sat down on the judgment seat on the platform that is called the Stone Pavement (in Hebrew, Gabbatha). 14 It was now about noon on the day of preparation for the Passover. And Pilate said to the people,[e] “Look, here is your king!”
15 “Away with him,” they yelled. “Away with him! Crucify him!”
“What? Crucify your king?” Pilate asked.
“We have no king but Caesar,” the leading priests shouted back.
16 Then Pilate turned Jesus over to them to be crucified.

John 18

The historical context; this shit was originally written sometime after 70 CE and probably the first drafts were complete by 140.  In that time, the Romans suppressed the Great Revolt in 70 and kicked the Jews out of Jerusalem.  The Kitos War - which the Jews in Judaea largely sat out having learned a lesson in 70, involved jewish communities in various parts of the Eastern empire by 117 CE and finally the bar Kohkba Revolt which ended c 136 CE.  By the end of that time the jews were decidedly persona non grata and Hadrian booted their asses out of Judaea.   Note that while the jews become ever more strident in demanding jesus' death as time goes by Pilate keeps trying to get him off the hook.  That makes Pilate look like a pussy and that characterization is grossly at odds with the portrayals by Philo and Josephus which thought of him as an arrogant fuck.

But xtians were writing propaganda.  Not history.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#24

Thou shalt not kill.
(12-25-2020, 04:47 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Well, what I was thinking when I made this thread (I probably wasn't thinking this concept through)  was that Yahweh who was allegedly omniscient would know that his son would die from the get go and indeed, needed  to die to sacrifice himself for everyone's sins and the Adam and Eve disaster.  So he kinda knows a Jesus murder has to happen, according the the Christian concept of redemption and all that rot.   So in my atheist mind god approves of this murder.  That's what I was getting at when I posted this thread..........I think.   Hmm   

The whole story is so convoluted it's hard to imagine that people believe this nonsense.

According to bible god have no problem with genocide. Murder wouldn't even register on this imaginary being conscience.
Man’s innate yearning for freedom can be suppressed but never destroyed. Totalitarianism cannot renounce violence. If it does, it perishes. Eternal, ceaseless violence, overt or covert, is the basis of totalitarianism. Man does not renounce freedom voluntarily.

Vasily Grossman
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#25

Thou shalt not kill.
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