Political correctness in engineering

[Deesse23]

There seem to be efforts in the past months to implement "non-discriminatory language" in technical standards like ISO, IEC and SAE.

Example: "master/slave" or "black-white-listing" will be replaced by "commander/responder" or "block-and-allow" list

I.kid.you.not.

[Minimalist]

Lunacy.

[Fireball]

Lunacy.

"Not quite all the way mentally healthy." 

That's actually pretty silly to do. I bet the company I used to work for is doing it, too.

[epronovost]

There seem to be efforts in the past months to implement "non-discriminatory language" in technical standards like ISO, IEC and SAE.

Example: "master/slave" or "black-white-listing" will be replaced by "commander/responder" or "block-and-allow" list

I.kid.you.not.    

The new ones seems less like coded jargon and more like proper technical terms. Since I'm not familiar with engineering, I have no special attachment to the older terms and couldn't care less if they changed them. I think that from a didactical point of view, the changes will be useful and will smooth communication by making it less symbolic and more descriptive which is something more desirable in technical and scientific language.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

The people who wrote those original codes were children of their times.

[Mathilda]

Example: "master/slave" or "black-white-listing" will be replaced by "commander/responder" or "block-and-allow" list

I'll be stealing these thanks. It's difficult coming up with decent alternatives.

Still trying to think of an alternative to enable / disable.

I did once jokingly suggest that instead of master/slave we SMASH THE PATRIARCHY by referring to Dominatrix / submissive.

[airportkid]

I have never thought of the "master/slave" engineering pair in terms analogous to human bondage, but what the hey.  I guess desexing "male/female" engineering parlance is next, although it is often the most succinct and accurate description of a mechanical relationship.  Meanwhile "Commander/Responder" misses the boat.  "Originator/Repeater" or "Driver/Idler" would be more accurate.

[Minimalist]

This is the kind of shit that drives me up a wall about "progressives."

[Gawdzilla Sama]

"Gollywoggle v. horny toad" Gotta be somewhere to work that in.

[abaris]

This is the kind of shit that drives me up a wall about "progressives."

Yeah, but that's not progressive. That's anal.

[TonyAnkle]

I wonder if estate agents will stop using the term master bedroom?

[Deesse23]

Master, slave
Master, slave
Master, slave
Master, slave
Master, slave

there, i said it

[Mathilda]

Well I wasn't the one who suggested it in our work place. And I remember the scepticism when I first heard about this during my comp sci degree from a full on lefty woman lecturer.

It was actually an older white male electronic engineer who brought up the idea in my company. Not as something to be imposed but as an alternative. I agreed because I now realise that it's not up to me to decide what other people who should and not be offended by in the same way that people try deciding what I should or should not be offended by.

And it's not even about being offended. I now recognise that words have connotations and associations, and some of those I may not understand myself because my lived experience is unique to me, as it is to everyone else. So if a suitably succinct alternative can be found (which is actually the only real challenge) then the really the only real issue is just one of habit.

Black / white lists are obvious. Black meaning bad and white meaning good. Why is that? It strengthens a mental association that carries through into other areas of life. Yeah saying disabled to mean less than is also obvious to me. And I'm not disabled myself, but I could well be in time given MS. Master / slave, I don't really understand why people might have problems with that but then I'm happy to accept being told that they do.

But in the 20+ years since I first heard of this concept my attitude to it has changed to those who moan about making minor changes. I realise now that it comes from privilege and entitlement and I now see how those same attitudes negatively affect minorities in so many ways in day to day life.

It's no real cost to me to change the language I use so why not if it can make the world a better place?

[Mathilda]

I wonder if estate agents will stop using the term master bedroom?

And why is that preferable to using main bedroom which is gender neutral and doesn't reinforce the idea that men are somehow superior to women? Especially if you also want to increase your chance of selling to a lesbian couple.

Micro-aggressions are real and while each one out of context is negligible, when you have to endure them all day every day for the whole of your life, then they do have a real effect on how you see yourself. But people who do not suffer from micro-aggressions do not appreciate this precisely because they don't experience micro-aggressions themselves. And it's much easier to dismiss the concept than to put the effort into learning about them and avoiding them.

[TonyAnkle]

Well I wasn't the one who suggested it in our work place. And I remember the scepticism when I first heard about this during my comp sci degree from a full on lefty woman lecturer.

It was actually an older white male electronic engineer who brought up the idea in my company. Not as something to be imposed but as an alternative. I agreed because I now realised it's not up to me to decide what other people who should and not be offended by in the same way that people try deciding what I should or should not be offended by.

And it's not even about being offended. I now recognise that words have connotations and associations, and some of those I may not understand myself because my lived experience is unique to me, as it is to everyone else. So if a suitably succinct alternative can be found (which is actually the only real challenge) then the really the only real issue is just one of habit.

Black / white lists are obvious. Black meaning bad and white meaning good. Why is that? It strengthens a mental association that carries through into other areas of life. Yeah saying disabled to mean less than is also obvious to me. And I'm not disabled myself, but I could well be in time given MS. Master / slave, I don't really understand why people might have problems with that but then I'm happy to accept being told that they do.

But in the 20+ years since I first heard of this concept my attitude to it has changed to those who moan about making minor changes. I realise now that it comes from privilege and entitlement and I now see how those same attitudes negatively affect minorities in so many ways in day to day life.

It's no real cost to me to change the language I use so why not if it can make the world a better place?

They're just fucking words.

It's a complicated topic. As the father of a gay son and a trans son the language used by the majority of my generation is offensive to me. But having lived through those times, I have an understanding of why.

Fortunately our age group will all be dead soon.

[adey67]

This is the kind of shit that drives me up a wall about "progressives."

Me too!! They're so far up their own arses sometimes it drives me nuts. Give me liberals and leftists and I'm totally cool give me progressives and I just want to kill them.. Leftists = a political/social position and perspective with which I frequently agree, progressives = a snooty pretentious holier than thou affected attitude that they believe gives them the right to shut down and deny a person their right to any opinion thats different to theirs.

[Minimalist]

For me it is more that they focus on minutiae when the fucking enemy is packing the courts with pro-business, anti-environment, scumbags and stealling everything that isn't nailed down.

Meanwhile, they think getting the Washington Redskins to change their fucking name is some kind of great victory.

[Chas]

Well I wasn't the one who suggested it in our work place. And I remember the scepticism when I first heard about this during my comp sci degree from a full on lefty woman lecturer.

It was actually an older white male electronic engineer who brought up the idea in my company. Not as something to be imposed but as an alternative. I agreed because I now realise that it's not up to me to decide what other people who should and not be offended by in the same way that people try deciding what I should or should not be offended by.

And it's not even about being offended. I now recognise that words have connotations and associations, and some of those I may not understand myself because my lived experience is unique to me, as it is to everyone else. So if a suitably succinct alternative can be found (which is actually the only real challenge) then the really the only real issue is just one of habit.

Black / white lists are obvious. Black meaning bad and white meaning good. Why is that? It strengthens a mental association that carries through into other areas of life. Yeah saying disabled to mean less than is also obvious to me. And I'm not disabled myself, but I could well be in time given MS. Master / slave, I don't really understand why people might have problems with that but then I'm happy to accept being told that they do.

But in the 20+ years since I first heard of this concept my attitude to it has changed to those who moan about making minor changes. I realise now that it comes from privilege and entitlement and I now see how those same attitudes negatively affect minorities in so many ways in day to day life.

It's no real cost to me to change the language I use so why not if it can make the world a better place?

Enable/disable doesn't bother me in the least, and I am disabled.  It is perfectly descriptive.

Black/white isn't bad/good, it is about visibility - darkness/light.  Block/allow is more directly descriptive.

[no one]

When does BDSM go all PC?

[Fireball]

When does BDSM go all PC?

My last laptop had a clit. Does that count?

[SYZ]

It's just another example of the insidious and absurd nature of millennial political correctness
overtaking perfectly acceptable and logical terminology.  Anybody who thinks the hydraulic braking
system on a motor vehicle—defined as a master cylinder and slave cylinders—is discriminatory
really needs to get a life.

Will newspapers now be printed in dark grey and light beige?

[TonyAnkle]

When does BDSM go all PC?

My last laptop had a clit. Does that count?

I'm not going to make the joke about my big end... Oh wait.

[Little Lunch]

When does BDSM go all PC?

My last laptop had a clit. Does that count?

Apparently mine does too but I can't find the fucking thing.

[Minimalist]

When does BDSM go all PC?

My last laptop had a clit. Does that count?

Apparently mine does too but I can't find the fucking thing.

Typical male!

[possibletarian]

It's no real cost to me to change the language I use so why not if it can make the world a better place?

I agree, I've had to change the language I use a bit, at first I was resistant to it, but when it had real benefits and no drawbacks why not. Now I find myself actively looking for ways to improve the way I refer to things, simply because it's the kind thing to do.