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The Paradox of Immortality
#76

The Paradox of Immortality
It's as though Christians are dating a guy named Jesus who is all nice and pleasant and loving and concerned for your wellbeing.   You go to his house and everything is fine.  He's all nice and warm and welcoming....... until you peek in one of the rooms down the hall and find that he has a torture chamber full of spiked balls, hot branding irons and racks with 9" nails sticking out everywhere.   Why does Jesus have a torture chamber in his back room?  Well if you don't love him unconditionally that's where you end up.     What an awful religion.
                                                         T4618
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#77

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 02:57 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: It's as though Christians are dating a guy named Jesus who is all nice and pleasant and loving and concerned for your wellbeing.   You go to his house and everything is fine.  He's all nice and warm and welcoming....... until you peek in one of the rooms down the hall and find that he has a torture chamber full of spiked balls, hot branding irons and racks with 9" nails sticking out everywhere.   Why does Jesus have a torture chamber in his back room?  Well if you don't love him unconditionally that's where you end up.     What an awful religion.

Yeah, I actually feel sorry for the likes of the new guy, tied to this crappy religion through fear and fear alone.
Unfortunately I think that new guy is too far gone already judging by his posts.
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#78

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 02:21 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 01:24 PM)Cavebear Wrote: I don't think the theists read much first.  They just jump right in.  They are convinced a "few words of their particular god" will set us all just right.

In this case, I don't think Alin understood the differences between bare assertions and formal arguments.

Bare assertions: Fox News (et al). "it has been reported..."

Formal arguments: MSNBC shows video day/date/time and "here is what was said".
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#79

The Paradox of Immortality
Quote:There is, in fact, no worldview more reprehensible in its arrogance than that of a religious believer: the creator of the universe takes an interest in me, approves of me, loves me, and will reward me after death; my current beliefs, drawn from scripture, will remain the best statement of the truth until the end of the world; everyone who disagrees with me will spend eternity in hell.

--Sam Harris Letter to a Christian Nation

But in fact all religions are pretty much the same.  They seek to create tribalism.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#80

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 04:02 PM)Minimalist Wrote: They seek to create tribalism.

Create? It's always been there and always will be. Religion just capitalises on it. Like many other beliefs, ideologies and what have you.

The evils of religion are not the fault of religion as if it were some sort of outside influence, entity or something. They are the fault of humanity and what we are.

Religion is a symptom, not the disease.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#81

The Paradox of Immortality
I don't know about that.  "Religion" in the sense of state-sponsored doctrines is a relatively new addition to humanity.  For most of humanity's existence we did just fine without it.  Primitive cultures today maintain an animist or ancestor worship belief at least until some fucking do-gooder missionary comes along and scares the shit out of them with god shit.

I have to think about that one.  The growth of religion as we know it seems to post-date the agricultural revolution and the growth of cities.... and social strata.  Even though it is only 10k years ago or so it is still lost in the mists of time.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#82

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 04:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote: I don't know about that.  "Religion" in the sense of state-sponsored doctrines is a relatively new addition to humanity.  For most of humanity's existence we did just fine without it.  Primitive cultures today maintain an animist or ancestor worship belief at least until some fucking do-gooder missionary comes along and scares the shit out of them with god shit.

I have to think about that one.  The growth of religion as we know it seems to post-date the agricultural revolution and the growth of cities.... and social strata.  Even though it is only 10k years ago or so it is still lost in the mists of time.

An explanation of the world and a guide to morality by any other name would smell as foul as all the rest of the world religions, old or new.

OK, that's way too simplified and religions have served a purpose (not all of them bad) otherwise they wouldn't have existed. Claiming that ours are worse is no better than claiming they're better (and a bit of a reverse colonialist thinking, noble savages that we brought civilisation to, for good or bad).

But either way, all I meant was, religion, in all its shapes and forms is a product of humanity, we make it what it is, it doesn't make it what *we* are.

Again, that's simplified, and it's a more complex process than this but I do maintain that religion is a symptom of what we are, the bad and the good.
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#83

The Paradox of Immortality
Quote:OK, that's way too simplified and religions have served a purpose (not all of them bad) otherwise they wouldn't have existed.


Institutions should be questioned with the concept of Cui Bono in mind.

[Image: e89ef2d7e9c2a371f0178b0744ae15ca.jpg]



Certainly the priests benefitted and the rulers made sure that they did.  The commons got a bullshit story to make them feel better while they were being oppressed.  But I am a self-confessed cynic.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#84

The Paradox of Immortality
There is a religious commercial on a radio channel I NORMALLY like.  It says that god forgives all. Really? Is there anyone a deity won't forgive?

"Raped women. Executed citizens in mass graves. Kidnapped children. Tortured-to-death victims"? Obviously unforgivable war-crimes.

But, which war am I talking about?
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#85

The Paradox of Immortality
Fucking god is something of a war criminal himself.


Quote:2 And the Lord said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.

3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.
.
.
.

20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 6
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#86

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 07:35 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Fucking god is something of a war criminal himself.


Quote:2 And the Lord said unto Joshua, See, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king thereof, and the mighty men of valour.

3 And ye shall compass the city, all ye men of war, and go round about the city once. Thus shalt thou do six days.
.
.
.

20 So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.

21 And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.

Joshua 6

Yeah but, yeah but, context!
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#87

The Paradox of Immortality
Big Grin 


The context is that they attacked a city that wasn't inhabited at the time it supposedly happened.

Quote:As archaeologist Bill Dever says, “if you want a miracle, here’s your miracle: Joshua destroyed a city that wasn’t even there.”
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#88

The Paradox of Immortality
AlinC. Wrote: But I do think there are christian men of science, and physicians of course who profess as christians...


Yes, you make a valid point.... but so does H. L. Mencken.


[Image: quote-the-effort-to-reconcile-science-an...7-0767.jpg]


Religion is such a pervasive form of child abuse that shaking it off is difficult.  So I don't blame you, but, neither do I find any of your arguments persuasive.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#89

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 08:45 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Big Grin 


The context is that they attacked a city that wasn't inhabited at the time it supposedly happened.

Quote:As archaeologist Bill Dever says, “if you want a miracle, here’s your miracle: Joshua destroyed a city that wasn’t even there.”

I thought they marched around the walls or something?
My memory isn't what it used to be.
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#90

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 09:45 PM)jerry mcmasters Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 04:51 AM)AlinC. Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 03:46 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Just a little warning.  You seem like a nice person but the Bible isn't evidence.  It claims a god exists but it is not itself evidence.   What you need is evidence outside of the Bible to prove imortality is real.  Quotes from the Bible are not evidence.  

By the way, your English is very good.

Thank you for complementing me for my english, I still have to learn the english language more...

Yes I agree that probably quotes from the Bible are not evidences...but I think regarding imortality it's hard to find "real" evidences, simply by the nature of this problem. I mean, there are some evidences, like people who were dead and in clinical death, and they returned back from the death, and they related the experiences, they had out of body experiences. If you laugh at that, and say that isn't real, It doesn't mean that you are right, and those persons were lying, or invented that. I do believe those kind of clinical experiences...I can't prove it of course, I just believe it (because I choose to personally, with my own will)...those people only really know If these things happened for real or not, we could believe them or not...because in this situation it's a matter of belief, not a physical, palpable evidence, by the very nature of this situation...because when a man dies, his body doesn't move,he doesn't make any move, he doesn't breath, he doesn't talk, so you can't ask him If there is a life after death, any kind of life...that's why God made miracles in Bible resurecting the deads, to show that He has the power to do that, Something that people never saw anything like that, that the dead body begin to move and breath, and the man returned back from the death...  in the Bible it says that when a man dies, his soul leaves the body, and will leave in another kind of world, not a physical one...again the imortality can not be proven like a ecuation in math, it can be believed...because the soul can not be seen with those physical eyes, so you have a palpable, 100% percent evidence it exists...some things are about belief, not about physical evidence, because buy they're very nature, are not physical.
There is a spiritual world, which can not be seen with those physical eyes...like the angels of God, they can not be seen...that's the lie of the Devil that there is not a after life, and everything ends in the grave...

(bolded the part I wanted to talk about)

Have you read any where the person that had those experiences described anything that was outside cultural expectations, or basic expectations?  It seems like they always, upon "returning" to life, relay events that one would expect them to have given their existing religious and cultural backgrounds.  Meaning while they may believe it was true, it was most likely their mind playing tricks on them.  I would love to hear an out of body experience where the person was describing things they couldn't possibly have known in their corporeal form.

It's a consideration that I think explains what's really going on.  And then there are outright fakes.  I know there have been some famous- and lucrative- fakes based on the "I died, went to heaven, and came back" trope, ending up with book deals and movies.

Yes I agree, there are probably many fakes, as you said, but just probably. 
Or you say their minds played tricks on them...yes it is a thing of wether you believe it or not...I do believe many of those experiences.
For example, in my country Romania a christian woman saw the hell in many visions (on periods of months), and she saw also the heaven and the angels of God and she saw the lord Jesus...and she wrote a book about it, describing the visions, but mostly the hell...and I've read her book (written in romanian)...The book is called "Experiente cu Dumnezeu" (in english is "Experiences with God") by Vetuta Hanis. Here are some things she saw and felt in hell: the hell is in the form of a man, it has the hands, the legs, the body of a man, and in the center of it, it is the heart of hell, where Satan stays...but it is in the form of a huge man, it is very big, very big...and on its surface, the legs and hands and body are pits or holes, where people stay in hell. The pits are very high, more than 3 meters, so that the people who burn in hell can't get out...when they try to get out of the pit, a demon comes and pushes them into the pit back. The hell also has enormous gates, which are opened and closed with the power of Satan.
The smell there is unbearable, it comes from the flesh of the people who burn in hell. On all the people who are there are also  worms, which are on the flesh of those people ( like it is said in the Bible, that the worm does not die in hell)...the fire doesn't burn the worms, it doesn't affect them. Also the fire doesn't burn the demons from hell, and also Satan. There are different levels of suffering in hell, some are higher, some are lower, but in the book it says that the lowest form of punishment in hell is not comparable with any suffering that is on this earth, and nothing you can ever imagine. What it is the most striking thing in hell are the screams of people there: in all hell there are only screams and screams of pain...
This woman said they were many people in hell: drunkards, criminals, thiefs, witches, people who worked with black magic and Satan while they were on earth, people who lived in sexual pleasures that are sinful, homosexuals, women who were sluts on earth...in hell there are also so-called christians, who althought they were christians on earth, they lived in all kind of sins...the biggest punishment was for ex-christians: because they knew God and Jesus Christ while they were on earth, they knew the power and love of God, yet they rejected God to live in the sinful pleasures of this world, forgetting God...those people had the biggest punishment: the demons were torturing them in different ways: for example they were piercing them in body with spears, again and again, while they were in fire. Another kind of punishments were for women who practiced magic, who were in the church of Satan: a woman who had the power from Satan on earth to change her appearence, her form of body in 4 ways, was countinously changing her appearence again and again like she was doing on earth, by the power of Satan, and the demons were mocking here countinously.
Many people are described there in hell...when this woman was passing with the Lord Jesus in hell, Jesus told her the story of many people while they were on earth, how He, Jesus many times called these people in many ways to repentance and to believe and follow Him, but they rejected Him once, 2 times, 3 times until it was too late.
There were many people there who had fame and money while they were on earth, but their money and fame could not save them from hell. Almost all the people who this woman with Jesus saw, when they saw Jesus, begin to shout desperately to him, asking for forgivness, promising to Jesus in tears that if He will let them out from fire back to earth, they will tell all the people who they knew that the hell is real, that they must repent and believe in Jesus with all their heart, and leave the sin...but Jesus answered them that it was too late.
There is a immense thirst for water in hell...as it is written in the Bible, in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus...in hell people don't have water, and they stay in fire countinously!
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#91

The Paradox of Immortality
Well, that was one big wall of text.
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#92

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 02:57 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: It's as though Christians are dating a guy named Jesus who is all nice and pleasant and loving and concerned for your wellbeing.   You go to his house and everything is fine.  He's all nice and warm and welcoming....... until you peek in one of the rooms down the hall and find that he has a torture chamber full of spiked balls, hot branding irons and racks with 9" nails sticking out everywhere.   Why does Jesus have a torture chamber in his back room?  Well if you don't love him unconditionally that's where you end up.     What an awful religion.

I don't have an answer to this...all I can say is that God loves all the sinners on the earth, in a sense,( because in other sense I don't think he loves very much people who countinously live in sin), so much that he gaves his only son, Jesus Christ to die for us, for the whole world, so that we may "not perish", but "have eternal live"...that is the stroy of christinaity. That Jesus Christ, the son of God, died for us on a cross, because he loves all the people, so that through Him, by faith, we may come to the throne of grace of God, and become His children, and be saved...after he died, on the third day Jesus was risen from death, because the death had no power over Him, because he was God, and he raised to heaven, and stood at the right of God.
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#93

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 10:40 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote: But that's not a good argument...who are we to judge God for what He is doing? That is a sin by itself, it comes from pride, from not recognising the power and justice of God with humility. In other words, your justice is greater than the justice of God...that can not be true at all...

Why would it require my moral judgment to be superior to God's on the chosen subject?  It is enough that no mind is privileged above others.

It is said that God is morally perfect, but there's scant evidence of that, and God's aseity seems to guarantee that God's morals are arbitrary -- neither better or worse than anyone else's.

Yes but on your part, what objecticity of morals atheism has if everything in this world is happening by chance...and when you die you die forever, you are one with...sand and rocks. Why it is forbidden ultimately to kill people, for example, like Stalin did...which by the way, he was an atheist.

Nietzche was a deep guy, which I like about him, and a stupid guy...paradoxically. Let me explain it: he was a good thinker realising that without God and religion nothing has an ultimate sense and purpose in Universe, which is nihilism right?...he wasn't superficial like atheists those days say that there is a objective purpose and morality even without God...BUT he was also a stupid guy, because believing that nothing makes any objective sense and purpose in Universe makes you crazy if you believe it...it takes you away all your joy, and you want to comit suicide, and you will live with desperation in your soul all your life...so isn't it better for your soul to not believe such a thing, that there is no purpose in Universe, and instead believe God exists, and you will have joy in your soul?
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#94

The Paradox of Immortality
@AlinC.

Your gawd is no better than an abusive spouse, unless you actually believe there's a meaningful difference between "Love me, or I'll kill you, bitch!" and "Love me, or I'll send you to hell, filthy sinner!"

Protip: There's no meaningful difference.
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#95

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 10:21 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote: @AlinC.

Your gawd is no better than an abusive spouse, unless you actually believe there's a meaningful difference between "Love me, or I'll kill you, bitch!" and "Love me, or I'll send you to hell, filthy sinner!"

Protip: There's no meaningful difference.

God sends people to hell because He is just, and he hates sin. Yes I agree, to suffer in hell for eternity is a big punishment, but that's the punishment of God, I don't know why, I'm not God. Read the Bible with attention if you want answers.
God is all powerful, and He deserve all the glory, of every man on the face of the earth, because He is God.
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#96

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 10:49 PM)AlinC. Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:21 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote: @AlinC.

Your gawd is no better than an abusive spouse, unless you actually believe there's a meaningful difference between "Love me, or I'll kill you, bitch!" and "Love me, or I'll send you to hell, filthy sinner!"

Protip: There's no meaningful difference.

God sends people to hell because He is just, and he hates sin. Yes I agree, to suffer in hell for eternity is a big punishment, but that's the punishment of God, I don't know why, I'm not God. Read the Bible with attention if you want answers.
God is all powerful, and He deserve all the glory, of every man on the face of the earth, because He is God.

Eternal punishment for finite crimes is not justice.

Yes, I've read your collection of iron age myths and fables. I found it to be self contradictory and far from compelling.
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#97

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 10:49 PM)AlinC. Wrote: God sends people to hell because He is just, and he hates sin.

I don't see how you yourself can actually believe that.  If you actually believed it, you wouldn't be able to sleep at night, for fear that you'd committed some sin you may not even be aware you committed, or had some sinful thought you're not supposed to think.  There's no possible way you could be absolutely certain you won't get chucked into hell.

So you must believe, at the end and facing your god's judgement, that you'll be able to talk your god into forgiving you.

Now you might say you believe Jesus died for all your sins, but if you believe that, there's no reason to fear your god whatsoever.  You're saved.  You could atomize half the planet while singing satan's praises and it's all good.  There're no provisions in your bible that say once saved, you still have to lead a blameless existence.  Otherwise, there'd be no point to getting saved.

Given that many sins are thought crimes, it's impossible for a human being to escape committing sin.  So genuine belief in hell is only possible if you also believe you'll be able to talk your god out of punishing you.  Which, again, raises the question:  why bother with trying to be sinless if you're just gonna talk your god into forgiving you?

The concept of hell is so surpassingly childish and ignorant, driven by atavistic thirst for revenge, any reasonably educated person would recognize its utter absurdity and dismiss it.
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#98

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 10:49 PM)AlinC. Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:21 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote: @AlinC.

Your gawd is no better than an abusive spouse, unless you actually believe there's a meaningful difference between "Love me, or I'll kill you, bitch!" and "Love me, or I'll send you to hell, filthy sinner!"

Protip: There's no meaningful difference.

God sends people to hell because He is just, and he hates sin. Yes I agree, to suffer in hell for eternity is a big punishment, but that's the punishment of God, I don't know why, I'm not God. Read the Bible with attention if you want answers.
God is all powerful, and He deserve all the glory, of every man on the face of the earth, because He is God.


That presumes that there is a god - and specifically the one you were brought up to worship in your culture.  The actual evidence for his existence is about as thin as air.  A bunch of priests writing a lot of silly shit down to establish their own power is not evidence but at the end of the day, you have nothing else.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#99

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 10:49 PM)AlinC. Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:21 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote: @AlinC.

Your gawd is no better than an abusive spouse, unless you actually believe there's a meaningful difference between "Love me, or I'll kill you, bitch!" and "Love me, or I'll send you to hell, filthy sinner!"

Protip: There's no meaningful difference.

God sends people to hell because He is just, and he hates sin. Yes I agree, to suffer in hell for eternity is a big punishment, but that's the punishment of God, I don't know why, I'm not God. Read the Bible with attention if you want answers.
God is all powerful, and He deserve all the glory, of every man on the face of the earth, because He is God.


Your god, being a omniscient all knowing all seing being would know even before he created anything that sin would exist.  He sees into the future.  So he either did it on purpose or does a bumbling, shitty job making a universe.     Also, according to your book of myths he created evil.  

Quote: Isaiah 45: 7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
                                                         T4618
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The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 11:10 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:49 PM)AlinC. Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 10:21 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote: @AlinC.

Your gawd is no better than an abusive spouse, unless you actually believe there's a meaningful difference between "Love me, or I'll kill you, bitch!" and "Love me, or I'll send you to hell, filthy sinner!"

Protip: There's no meaningful difference.

God sends people to hell because He is just, and he hates sin. Yes I agree, to suffer in hell for eternity is a big punishment, but that's the punishment of God, I don't know why, I'm not God. Read the Bible with attention if you want answers.
God is all powerful, and He deserve all the glory, of every man on the face of the earth, because He is God.

Eternal punishment for finite crimes is not justice.

Yes, I've read your collection of iron age myths and fables. I found it to be self contradictory and far from compelling.

When I hear those kind of objections I can't answer them, it makes me laugh honestly...I just don't know how to answer...and since I get answers with irony, I will answer with irony and sarcasm also, because I'don't want to embarass or shame the name of God, so here it is:
Ever heard of this verse from Bible?:
1 Peter 5:5
 In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,

“God opposes the proud
    but shows favor to the humble.”


I don't think you did, especially the bolded part. How'about these ones?:
Isaiah 2:10
Go into the rocks, hide in the ground
    from the fearful presence of the Lord
    and the splendor of his majesty!
11 The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled
    and human pride brought low;
the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.

12 The Lord Almighty has a day in store
    for all the proud and lofty,
for all that is exalted
    (and they will be humbled),

You see my friend to question and judge why God throws people in hell and for eternity comes from pride, and it is rebellion against God. Is as it says in Bible, that in the end times people will be "haters of God",  and "proud" (Romans 1:30)...so it is from pride and rebellion that you say this, that it is evil that God throws people in hell for eternity...I don't bother to answer to these questions, I'm just ironic and laugh at them, because who am I to judge God for that, a simple man...but what I can surely say is this: every man needs to bow his knees and head before God, and accept his will and sovereignty in every big or little thing, and repent from the heart for his sins, and recognise that without Jesus he is truly lost, and he must repent for his sins with all his heart...that is true humility, when you obey God and recognise him as Lord of everything and of the Universe...If you don't do it in this life, it will come a day when You WILL do it anyway:
Romans 14:11
11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
I have no fear of that day, because I humbled before God a long time ago...
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