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The Paradox of Immortality
#51

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 02:26 PM)AlinC. Wrote: so you believe you live your life as you want to, having no fear of God at all

Does this mean you do not live your life as you want to? Can you name several things that you'd "want to" do but don't because you have "fear of God"?

Quote:then when you die, the demons will take you and will laugh at you, mocking you and will throw you in fire, in hell, and they will torment you and torture you while you are in fire...

And how does this thought make you feel? That while you're living in eternal bliss, billions upon billions of people will be suffering unspeakable, eternal torture? Happy? Indifferent? Upset? How can you feel eternal bliss if you're upset though?
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#52

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 06:07 AM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:Yes I agree that probably quotes from the Bible are not evidences...but I think regarding imortality it's hard to find "real" evidences, simply by the nature of this problem.



Okay.  Then simply admit that you believe it because you want to believe in it.  Period.

I knew a guy who bought one lottery ticket every week because he believed he would eventually win.  He never did but his belief was unshaken.

And, at the very least, he was secure in the absolute knowledge that someone did win the lottery every few weeks.

You have stumbled into a place with a lot of people who do not believe a word of it.  I am one of them.
 Yes I admit I "believe it", but is not a kind of naive believe or faith...in my opinion a strong christian is assured in his faith, not being afraid he will be laughed at, or being weak and naive.
I understand your point, that I am the man who blindly believes until he dies...but I think my faith is not of that kind...I believe firmly and strongly in God and his power, because I am from a family of believers...my mother and father taught me and my brothers about God since I was a child, about Jesus which îs the son of God, who deserves all the praise and glory, about spiritual gifts like prophecy, the sign of wonders, speaking in tongues and other spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to the man who ask for them in prayer...my family had many signs and wonders from God, many answers to prayers, dreams and visions from God, and even healings from God, and had many prophecies from other "brothers" (that's how other believers are called in our church, the pentecostal church) with the gift of prophecy who came true. Here is a passage from the Bible which speaks about this:
Mark 16:
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.
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#53

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 04:51 AM)AlinC. Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 03:46 AM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 02:41 AM)AlinC. Wrote: As a christian, my opinion is that imortality is real, it exists. Not in this life, in this life we die once, then we will live forever...either to eternal suffering in hell, or to eternal joy and happiness in heaven, with God.
Hebrews 9:27:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..."


Just a little warning.  You seem like a nice person but the Bible isn't evidence.  It claims a god exists but it is not itself evidence.   What you need is evidence outside of the Bible to prove imortality is real.  Quotes from the Bible are not evidence.  

By the way, your English is very good.

Thank you for complementing me for my english, I still have to learn the english language more...

Yes I agree that probably quotes from the Bible are not evidences...but I think regarding imortality it's hard to find "real" evidences, simply by the nature of this problem. I mean, there are some evidences, like people who were dead and in clinical death, and they returned back from the death, and they related the experiences, they had out of body experiences. If you laugh at that, and say that isn't real, It doesn't mean that you are right, and those persons were lying, or invented that. I do believe those kind of clinical experiences...I can't prove it of course, I just believe it (because I choose to personally, with my own will)...those people only really know If these things happened for real or not, we could believe them or not...because in this situation it's a matter of belief, not a physical, palpable evidence, by the very nature of this situation...because when a man dies, his body doesn't move,he doesn't make any move, he doesn't breath, he doesn't talk, so you can't ask him If there is a life after death, any kind of life...that's why God made miracles in Bible resurecting the deads, to show that He has the power to do that, Something that people never saw anything like that, that the dead body begin to move and breath, and the man returned back from the death...  in the Bible it says that when a man dies, his soul leaves the body, and will leave in another kind of world, not a physical one...again the imortality can not be proven like a ecuation in math, it can be believed...because the soul can not be seen with those physical eyes, so you have a palpable, 100% percent evidence it exists...some things are about belief, not about physical evidence, because buy they're very nature, are not physical.
There is a spiritual world, which can not be seen with those physical eyes...like the angels of God, they can not be seen...that's the lie of the Devil that there is not a after life, and everything ends in the grave...

(bolded the part I wanted to talk about)

Have you read any where the person that had those experiences described anything that was outside cultural expectations, or basic expectations?  It seems like they always, upon "returning" to life, relay events that one would expect them to have given their existing religious and cultural backgrounds.  Meaning while they may believe it was true, it was most likely their mind playing tricks on them.  I would love to hear an out of body experience where the person was describing things they couldn't possibly have known in their corporeal form.

It's a consideration that I think explains what's really going on.  And then there are outright fakes.  I know there have been some famous- and lucrative- fakes based on the "I died, went to heaven, and came back" trope, ending up with book deals and movies.
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#54

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 09:13 PM)Vera Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 02:26 PM)AlinC. Wrote: so you believe you live your life as you want to, having no fear of God at all

Does this mean you do not live your life as you want to? Can you name several things that you'd "want to" do but don't because you have "fear of God"?

And how does this thought make you feel? That while you're living in eternal bliss, billions upon billions of people will be suffering unspeakable, eternal torture? Happy? Indifferent? Upset? How can you feel eternal bliss if you're upset though?

Yes, there are some things that I can do, but I don't, because I have fear that I will get in hell, not in heaven, I have fear of God.
One would be fornication, or adultery (althought I'm not married yet), or looking at nude women... or stealing or cheating other people with money, or not forgiving other people, or lying...or many other things.

But that's not a good argument...who are we to judge God for what He is doing? That is a sin by itself, it comes from pride, from not recognising the power and justice of God with humility. In other words, your justice is greater than the justice of God...that can not be true at all...
Romana chap. 1:

18 The wrath of God(A) is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,(C) so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.(E) 
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 
29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 
30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 
32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


...I recognise that it is a frightening punishment, to be in hell for eternity, but that is God's judgement...the Bible says that the fire from hell will never be stopped, and that people will never get out from hell. There are some christians who believe that there is freedom from hell ( like purgatory in catolic curch), but I don't think that's true.

Mark 9:

43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [b] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [c] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.
[d]
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#55

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote: But that's not a good argument...who are we to judge God for what He is doing? That is a sin by itself, it comes from pride, from not recognising the power and justice of God with humility. In other words, your justice is greater than the justice of God...that can not be true at all...

Why would it require my moral judgment to be superior to God's on the chosen subject? It is enough that no mind is privileged above others.

It is said that God is morally perfect, but there's scant evidence of that, and God's aseity seems to guarantee that God's morals are arbitrary -- neither better or worse than anyone else's.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#56

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote: Yes, there are some things that I can do, but I don't, because I have fear that I will get in hell, not in heaven, I have fear of God.
One would be fornication, or adultery (althought I'm not married yet), or looking at nude women... or stealing or cheating other people with money, or not forgiving other people, or lying...or many other things.

And yet, I, an atheist (and pretty much all people here) do not go around stealing and cheating other people. What does this tell you about us, yourself and the fear of god?

Also, I haven't made an argument and my questions so far have nothing to do with "judging god". I'm asking about you, your beliefs and how a fear of god makes you a good person, when you all but admit that without it you'd be stealing. And we, atheists, manage not to steal without it. So, again, if the only thing stopping people from doing "bad things" is a fear of god... shouldn't they look inside and wonder why they want to do those bad things in the first place. Do you think that not doing something bad because you are afraid, is a sign of a good person? And if you reply that we're all sinful or something - why do so many atheists manage to live their lives without actually committing crimes and doing all those bad things you mentioned?

(I won't be commenting on your unfortunate hang-ups about sex - that's just another sad by-product of religion.)

Please, do not quote huge chunks of the bible at us - it means nothing to us. Would I persuade you of anything if I quoted chunks of the Koran? Or of Harry Potter?

Finally, you did not reply about what you think about billions of people suffering eternally while you're living in eternal bliss. Are you ok with this thought? And if you're not, can your eternity in heaven really be called bliss?
“We drift down time, clutching at straws. But what good's a brick to a drowning man?” 
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#57

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote: I have fear of God.

Why?!? Why do you, and so many other christers, feel you have to fear your gawd? Isn't that iron age myth the "father figure" of your religion?
[Image: Bastard-Signature.jpg]
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#58

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 10:40 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote: But that's not a good argument...who are we to judge God for what He is doing? That is a sin by itself, it comes from pride, from not recognising the power and justice of God with humility. In other words, your justice is greater than the justice of God...that can not be true at all...

Why would it require my moral judgment to be superior to God's on the chosen subject?  It is enough that no mind is privileged above others.

It is said that God is morally perfect, but there's scant evidence of that, and God's aseity seems to guarantee that God's morals are arbitrary -- neither better or worse than anyone else's.

It can't be that way...the Bible says that God is 3 times holy, and he hates sin, he detests it, and he can not lie:
Proverbs 6:
16" There are six things the Lord hates,
    seven that are detestable to him:
17         haughty eyes,
        a lying tongue,
        hands that shed innocent blood,
18         a heart that devises wicked schemes,
        feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19         a false witness who pours out lies
        and a person who stirs up conflict in the community."

Titus 1:
 2" in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, "

Revelation 4 :6

 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 
7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 
8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’[b]
who was, and is, and is to come.”
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#59

The Paradox of Immortality
Alin,

This is not a conversation if one side isn't participating. Please take your preaching elsewhere. Thanks.
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#60

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote:      

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.[d]

Mr AlinC, you can quote the Bible with 6 meter high letters and it still doesn't mean a god exists. Quoting the Bible is meaningless unless you can provide evidence this god exists and "The Bible says" is not evidence.   Also, fearing a god isn't evidence.   Belief in a god isn't evidence.  To get anywhere with us you'd have to provide unbiased evidence from several outside sources.  "Unbiased" is the key word here.  Over the thousands of years that people have believed in a god or gods not once has anyone of them ever proven a deity exists.   I'm not holding out much hope that you'll be any different.
                                                         T4618
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#61

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 11:10 PM)AlinC. Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 10:40 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote: But that's not a good argument...who are we to judge God for what He is doing? That is a sin by itself, it comes from pride, from not recognising the power and justice of God with humility. In other words, your justice is greater than the justice of God...that can not be true at all...

Why would it require my moral judgment to be superior to God's on the chosen subject?  It is enough that no mind is privileged above others.

It is said that God is morally perfect, but there's scant evidence of that, and God's aseity seems to guarantee that God's morals are arbitrary -- neither better or worse than anyone else's.

It can't be that way...the Bible says that God is 3 times holy, and he hates sin, he detests it, and he can not lie:
Proverbs 6:
16" There are six things the Lord hates,
    seven that are detestable to him:
17         haughty eyes,
        a lying tongue,
        hands that shed innocent blood,
18         a heart that devises wicked schemes,
        feet that are quick to rush into evil,
19         a false witness who pours out lies
        and a person who stirs up conflict in the community."

Titus 1:
 2" in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, "

Revelation 4 :6

 6 Also in front of the throne there was what looked like a sea of glass, clear as crystal.
In the center, around the throne, were four living creatures, and they were covered with eyes, in front and in back. 
7 The first living creature was like a lion, the second was like an ox, the third had a face like a man, the fourth was like a flying eagle. 
8 Each of the four living creatures had six wings and was covered with eyes all around, even under its wings. Day and night they never stop saying:
“‘Holy, holy, holy
is the Lord God Almighty,’[b]
who was, and is, and is to come.”

And Donald Trump says he's a genius. Don't believe everything you read. Tell me, would an evil god not also make these claims about themselves?

The fact is, because of God's aseity, God's morals are just a brute fact. If God believed something immoral was actually moral, all the same things would be true, all the same claims about his perfection and honesty would be made, and so on, because there is nothing about God which places him within a specific moral universe -- whichever morals God might have, you'd still say the same things about him. If the same things are true about God regardless of what morals he holds, then none of those things identify God as moral. None of these claims differentiate God's morals as being moral relative to any other morals if he were possessed of them instead. That makes his morals arbitrary. Use your brain. If you imagine a different reality, and in this other reality, God is possessed of different morals, in that other reality, which of the things you are saying about this God in this reality would be seen as false if said about that other God in that other reality, by its believers? If nothing changes, then the two gods and their morals are arbitrary. Arbitrary morals aren't morals at all.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#62

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 11:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Mr AlinC, you can quote the Bible with 6 meter high letters and it still doesn't mean a god exists. Quoting the Bible is meaningless unless you can provide evidence this god exists and "The Bible says" is not evidence.   Also, fearing a god isn't evidence.   Belief in a god isn't evidence.  To get anywhere with us you'd have to provide unbiased evidence from several outside sources.  "Unbiased" is the key word here.  Over the thousands of years that people have believed in a god or gods not once has anyone of them ever proven a deity exists.   I'm not holding out much hope that you'll be any different.

The reason why believers never present verifiable evidence is that they think their spiritual world really is a separate reality from our own, with its own rules which they, of course, understand while we do not.  I guess once you convince yourself of the reality of the invisible and subjective, anything goes.

Alin should try to convince other believers that he is right, people who at least accept some of his basic assumptions.  As far as I know, all the different sects of religious beliefs still can't come to terms and agree with each other.  Until they get their act together, they shouldn't bother people like us at all.
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#63

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 11:45 PM)Alan V Wrote: Alin,

This is not a conversation if one side isn't participating.  Please take your preaching elsewhere.  Thanks.

Sorry, in what sense are you saying this, I don't understand?
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#64

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 11:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote:      

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.[d]

Mr AlinC, you can quote the Bible with 6 meter high letters and it still doesn't mean a god exists. Quoting the Bible is meaningless unless you can provide evidence this god exists and "The Bible says" is not evidence.   Also, fearing a god isn't evidence.   Belief in a god isn't evidence.  To get anywhere with us you'd have to provide unbiased evidence from several outside sources.  "Unbiased" is the key word here.  Over the thousands of years that people have believed in a god or gods not once has anyone of them ever proven a deity exists.   I'm not holding out much hope that you'll be any different.

Yes sorry about the "6 meter high letters", I was copying the Bible verses with my phone, not on a Pc, and it poste it like that, I didn't want to writte them so big, so I'm sorry about that.
Yes well I say "the Bible says" because I think in an argument I have to quote the Bible, because the Bible contains the truth, the word of God. I can't make some apologetics of any philosophical, scientific nature without the Bible...althought I do recognise, I am not very good with science and phisycs...I've read some philosophy...so I understand you guys want more some kind of scientific facts and proofs, rather than Bible preachings ? Yes, I am not so good at that, but I'm learning on that too...

Yes, but the God of the Bible is one of a kind God, he is "alive" not "dead", he is "the only God" and "there is no one" like Him...other "gods" are false gods, God says about Himself in the Bible that He is the only true God...
But I do think there are christian men of science, and physicians of course who profess as christians...
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#65

The Paradox of Immortality
Quote:Yes I admit I "believe it", but is not a kind of naive believe or faith...in my opinion a strong christian is assured in his faith, not being afraid he will be laughed at, or being weak and naive.
I understand your point, that I am the man who blindly believes until he dies...but I think my faith is not of that kind...I believe firmly and strongly in God and his power, because I am from a family of believers...my mother and father taught me and my brothers about God since I was a child, about Jesus which îs the son of God, who deserves all the praise and glory, about spiritual gifts like prophecy, the sign of wonders, speaking in tongues and other spiritual gifts that the Holy Spirit gives to the man who ask for them in prayer...my family had many signs and wonders from God, many answers to prayers, dreams and visions from God, and even healings from God, and had many prophecies from other "brothers" (that's how other believers are called in our church, the pentecostal church) with the gift of prophecy who came true. Here is a passage from the Bible which speaks about this:
Mark 16:
15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

19 After the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, he was taken up into heaven and he sat at the right hand of God.

So, two points here. Believing something strongly does not make it any more factual.  We have a whole collection of fools who gathered in Dealy Plaza in Dallas this year secure in the knowledge that John F. Kennedy Jr was coming back to life and would run with Trump as his vice-president in 2024.  JFK, Jr. died in 1999.  Now that does not stop these people from believing very strongly that he's coming back.  They are crazy.

Second point, the original gospel of mark ends at verse 16:8.  The rest of it, in various forms over the centuries is a fraud concocted by scribes who wanted it to match up better with the manner in which jesusism had evolved.

Hence.....Professor Bart Ehrmann.



So don't go picking up any poisonous snakes because that part of it is an add-on by some schmuck.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#66

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 12:43 AM)AlinC. Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 11:52 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote:      

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.[d]

Mr AlinC, you can quote the Bible with 6 meter high letters and it still doesn't mean a god exists. Quoting the Bible is meaningless unless you can provide evidence this god exists and "The Bible says" is not evidence.   Also, fearing a god isn't evidence.   Belief in a god isn't evidence.  To get anywhere with us you'd have to provide unbiased evidence from several outside sources.  "Unbiased" is the key word here.  Over the thousands of years that people have believed in a god or gods not once has anyone of them ever proven a deity exists.   I'm not holding out much hope that you'll be any different.

Yes sorry about the "6 meter high letters", I was copying the Bible verses with my phone, not on a Pc, and it poste it like that, I didn't want to writte them so big, so I'm sorry about that.
Yes well I say "the Bible says" because I think in an argument I have to quote the Bible, because the Bible contains the truth, the word of God. I can't make some apologetics of any philosophical, scientific nature without the Bible...althought I do recognise, I am not very good with science and phisycs...I've read some philosophy...so I understand you guys want more some kind of scientific facts and proofs, rather than Bible preachings ? Yes, I am not so good at that, but I'm learning on that too...

Yes, but the God of the Bible is one of a kind God, he is "alive" not "dead", he is "the only God" and "there is no one" like Him...other "gods" are false gods, God says about Himself in the Bible that He is the only true God...
But I do think there are christian men of science, and physicians of course who profess as christians...


(04-04-2022, 12:43 AM)AlinC. Wrote: I think in an argument I have to quote the Bible, because the Bible contains the truth....

This is called a"circular reasoning" fallacy.   Another words, you think the Bible is true because the Bible says it's true.   Any book can say it's "true" but that doesn't mean it is. 

[Image: 1*BZ4uTth1J-CZNrfMeOk5ow.jpeg]

The Quran also says it's true and people follow the Quran for the same reason's you follow the Bible.   The Hindus follow their holy book, The Red Vedas, for the same reasons.  

[Image: mphs27q5ei121.jpg?auto=webp&s=b94bd56b8c...17d1392293]  

 
Quote: God says about Himself in the Bible that He is the only true God.
    ^ ^ ^ Classic circular reasoning.


 You need UNBAISED sources from outside of the Bible.  Those sources need to have no conflict of interest.   So you see, we don't care what the Bible says.
                                                         T4618
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#67

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 12:22 AM)AlinC. Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 11:45 PM)Alan V Wrote: Alin,

This is not a conversation if one side isn't participating.  Please take your preaching elsewhere.  Thanks.

Sorry, in what sense are you saying this, I don't understand?

Why would you quote Bible verses to us if you aren't trying to preach to us?  Atheists don't accept the assumption that Bible quotes are either evidence or valid arguments, as other posters have already mentioned several times.  We consider the Bible a book of mythology, dogma, and unsupported or fictitious claims.  Some of the people who post at this forum are well-versed in the Bible, and still rejected it because it made no sense.  Many of us were raised as religious believers, after all.  I personally tried for years to make sense of certain theistic assumptions, but couldn't do it and had to give them up in the end.
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#68

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 10:56 PM)TheGentlemanBastard Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote: I have fear of God.

Why?!? Why do you, and so many other christers, feel you have to fear your gawd? Isn't that iron age myth the "father figure" of your religion?

Wouldn't you fear space Hitler if you would believe that he exists and watches you? Fact that at least some christians fear their imagined deity shows how twisted their religion is.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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#69

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 12:43 AM)AlinC. Wrote: But I do think there are christian men of science, and physicians of course who profess as christians...

So what? Just because someone may be an expert in a certain field doesn't mean that they can't be misguided when it comes to religion.

And it certainly doesn't give Christianity or any other religion scientific credibility.
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#70

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-03-2022, 10:33 PM)AlinC. Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 09:13 PM)Vera Wrote:
(04-03-2022, 02:26 PM)AlinC. Wrote: so you believe you live your life as you want to, having no fear of God at all

Does this mean you do not live your life as you want to? Can you name several things that you'd "want to" do but don't because you have "fear of God"?

And how does this thought make you feel? That while you're living in eternal bliss, billions upon billions of people will be suffering unspeakable, eternal torture? Happy? Indifferent? Upset? How can you feel eternal bliss if you're upset though?

Yes, there are some things that I can do, but I don't, because I have fear that I will get in hell, not in heaven, I have fear of God.
One would be fornication, or adultery (althought I'm not married yet), or looking at nude women... or stealing or cheating other people with money, or not forgiving other people, or lying...or many other things.

But that's not a good argument...who are we to judge God for what He is doing? That is a sin by itself, it comes from pride, from not recognising the power and justice of God with humility. In other words, your justice is greater than the justice of God...that can not be true at all...
Romana chap. 1:

18 The wrath of God(A) is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 
19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made,(C) so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.(E) 
22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.
27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 
29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 
30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 
32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.


...I recognise that it is a frightening punishment, to be in hell for eternity, but that is God's judgement...the Bible says that the fire from hell will never be stopped, and that people will never get out from hell. There are some christians who believe that there is freedom from hell ( like purgatory in catholic church), but I don't think that's true.

Mark 9:

43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. [44] [b] 45 And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. [46] [c] 47 And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

“‘the worms that eat them do not die,
    and the fire is not quenched.
[d]


Mate.....

You need to know that posting screensful of biblical scripture is not considered
any sort of meaningful debate on this forum, and if you continue to do this, you
may well find yourself banned.

Most atheist—like me—simply can't be bothered responding to the unproven myths,
absurd claims, misinterpretations, and delusions in your (or any) holy book.

The fact that your parents indoctrinated you as a young, naive, impressionable
child says a lot about your firm adult beliefs in supernatural entities and paranormal
phenomena.

"Faith" is defined as belief without evidence.  As an atheist, I have a belief that the
sun will rise tomorrow morning, as it has every day for 4.5 billion years.  That's a
supportable "belief"... where are yours?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#71

The Paradox of Immortality
This is why I generally watch newbies carefully.  

If you enter saying "I'm an atheist" and generally say atheist things HURRAY!

If you enter and say "I'm not sure".  OK, maybe. We all start somewhere. You had to have some concerns to even find this place.

If you enter quoting any theistic text, you are going to go to "ignore" until you are banned.

I don't waste time on idiots anymore.
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#72

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 12:19 PM)Cavebear Wrote: This is why I generally watch newbies carefully.  

Newbies should be watching us, to see if they really want to join in.   hobo

(We aren't exactly the easiest people to get along with.)
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#73

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 12:57 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 12:19 PM)Cavebear Wrote: This is why I generally watch newbies carefully.  

Newbies should be watching us, to see if they really want to join in.   hobo

(We aren't exactly the easiest people to get along with.)

I don't think the theists read much first. They just jump right in. They are convinced a "few words of their particular god" will set us all just right. Doesn't matter which one; they know that their's is the "one and only".

New atheists are trickier. Some are, some aren't. I mean that, some people think that escaping one theism in favor of another (or something "spiritual") is "an atheism". ROFL2
Never try to catch a dropped kitchen knife!
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#74

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 12:57 PM)Alan V Wrote:
(04-04-2022, 12:19 PM)Cavebear Wrote: This is why I generally watch newbies carefully.  

Newbies should be watching us, to see if they really want to join in.   hobo

(We aren't exactly the easiest people to get along with.)

That's just people in general!
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#75

The Paradox of Immortality
(04-04-2022, 01:24 PM)Cavebear Wrote: I don't think the theists read much first.  They just jump right in.  They are convinced a "few words of their particular god" will set us all just right.

In this case, I don't think Alin understood the differences between bare assertions and formal arguments.
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