The Paradox of Immortality

[Cavebear]

By bed time every day my knees tell me that "immortality" is not such a hot idea.

By bedtime?
I'm like that 'evolution of man' picture from the car to the house when I get home from work. :-)

Retirement does help that a bit.

Actually, Minimalist does have a point. Between lunch and dinner, I seldom sit down. And even lunch is on a hard wooden chair. So after I make dinner, I put up the tray and sink into the easy chai to eat a decent meal. Oh does THAT feel GOOD! I can feel each knee joint relax. I can feel my spine relax. That's why I am generally around here at night. It is so HARD to get up out of that comfy chair..........

[Dānu]

I bought a 2.5" memory foam mattress topper for my futon. I think the softer surface is actually having a negative impact on my back health. I was going to replace the futon with a memory foam bed, but I think I may just go with a new futon instead.

[Cavebear]

Susan Ertz:
Millions long for immortality who don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon.

Have used that quote for years.

[Little Lunch]

When I "read between the lines" I'm told I am making assumptions about people.  Not that I'm ever wrong, but no one keeps good score on that.  And you say I should.  Well, I'm stuck "betwixt and between", huh?

You have too many "ifs".  

I am very much aware of the idea that science is like magic to the unknowing.  I could probably bore you to tears about that.  

But what I will say is that what you are suggesting has no basis in reality.  Could it some day?  Sure.  I don't know the future and neither do you.

"I'm told"...

"Not that I'm ever wrong"...

"I don't know"... 

:-)

The "I'm told" is here on various pages.  

"Not that I'm ever wrong"...  I'll give 2 examples in general.  Once in a performance review my Team Leader said "well no one is always right".  I challenged him to provide a single example ever of when I was wrong in my voice telecommunications program management.  He couldn't and he had 5 years of records.  

Second, I was at the grocery store and challenged a price.  The supervisory manager at the front desk said I was wrong.  I said I was never wrong and that I challenge prices about once a month.  She said "only God is never wrong".  I repeated that, in years, I had never been wrong once about a price.  She repeated about God.  Guess what?  I was was right about the correct price.  

"I don't know"... "  About the future.  No one can.  Only charlatans and fools think they do.

You'll have to do a LOT better than THAT!  LOL!

It doesn't matter what was in between each quotation mark.
What I was really doing was imitating your first remarks to show that what you said originally makes no sense.
You really should learn to read between the lines.
Instead of thinking about what I wrote, think about why I wrote what I wrote.
I see lots of things fly over your head and I think it's part of your social problem you have here.

[Minimalist]

By bedtime?
I'm like that 'evolution of man' picture from the car to the house when I get home from work. :-)

Retirement does help that a bit.

Actually, Minimalist does have a point.  Between lunch and dinner, I seldom sit down.  And even lunch is on a hard wooden chair.  So after I make dinner, I put up the tray and sink into the easy chai to eat a decent meal.  Oh does THAT feel GOOD!  I can feel each knee joint relax.  I can feel my spine relax.  That's why I am generally around here at night.  It is so HARD to get up out of that comfy chair..........

Wireless keyboard would help.

[Cavebear]

"I'm told"...

"Not that I'm ever wrong"...

"I don't know"... 

:-)

The "I'm told" is here on various pages.  

"Not that I'm ever wrong"...  I'll give 2 examples in general.  Once in a performance review my Team Leader said "well no one is always right".  I challenged him to provide a single example ever of when I was wrong in my voice telecommunications program management.  He couldn't and he had 5 years of records.  

Second, I was at the grocery store and challenged a price.  The supervisory manager at the front desk said I was wrong.  I said I was never wrong and that I challenge prices about once a month.  She said "only God is never wrong".  I repeated that, in years, I had never been wrong once about a price.  She repeated about God.  Guess what?  I was was right about the correct price.  

"I don't know"... "  About the future.  No one can.  Only charlatans and fools think they do.

You'll have to do a LOT better than THAT!  LOL!

It doesn't matter what was in between each quotation mark.
What I was really doing was imitating your first remarks to show that what you said originally makes no sense.
You really should learn to read between the lines.
Instead of thinking about what I wrote, think about why I wrote what I wrote.
I see lots of things fly over your head and I think it's part of your social problem you have here.

I am aware what you tried to do. Part of my government career was to write replies to statements like yours, civilly. The difference is that I answered your post, and you didn't answer mine.

[AlinC.]

As a christian, my opinion is that imortality is real, it exists. Not in this life, in this life we die once, then we will live forever...either to eternal suffering in hell, or to eternal joy and happiness in heaven, with God.
Hebrews 9:27:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..."

[Minimalist]

....

And your evidence for that is...... what?


{ Tip for the new guy:  Don't say " the bible." }

[Dancefortwo]

As a christian, my opinion is that imortality is real, it exists. Not in this life, in this life we die once, then we will live forever...either to eternal suffering in hell, or to eternal joy and happiness in heaven, with God.
Hebrews 9:27:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..."

Just a little warning.  You seem like a nice person but the Bible isn't evidence.  It claims a god exists but it is not itself evidence.   What you need is evidence outside of the Bible to prove imortality is real.  Quotes from the Bible are not evidence.  

By the way, your English is very good.

[AlinC.]

As a christian, my opinion is that imortality is real, it exists. Not in this life, in this life we die once, then we will live forever...either to eternal suffering in hell, or to eternal joy and happiness in heaven, with God.
Hebrews 9:27:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..."

Just a little warning.  You seem like a nice person but the Bible isn't evidence.  It claims a god exists but it is not itself evidence.   What you need is evidence outside of the Bible to prove imortality is real.  Quotes from the Bible are not evidence.  

By the way, your English is very good.

Thank you for complementing me for my english, I still have to learn the english language more...

Yes I agree that probably quotes from the Bible are not evidences...but I think regarding imortality it's hard to find "real" evidences, simply by the nature of this problem. I mean, there are some evidences, like people who were dead and in clinical death, and they returned back from the death, and they related the experiences, they had out of body experiences. If you laugh at that, and say that isn't real, It doesn't mean that you are right, and those persons were lying, or invented that. I do believe those kind of clinical experiences...I can't prove it of course, I just believe it (because I choose to personally, with my own will)...those people only really know If these things happened for real or not, we could believe them or not...because in this situation it's a matter of belief, not a physical, palpable evidence, by the very nature of this situation...because when a man dies, his body doesn't move,he doesn't make any move, he doesn't breath, he doesn't talk, so you can't ask him If there is a life after death, any kind of life...that's why God made miracles in Bible resurecting the deads, to show that He has the power to do that, Something that people never saw anything like that, that the dead body begin to move and breath, and the man returned back from the death...  in the Bible it says that when a man dies, his soul leaves the body, and will leave in another kind of world, not a physical one...again the imortality can not be proven like a ecuation in math, it can be believed...because the soul can not be seen with those physical eyes, so you have a palpable, 100% percent evidence it exists...some things are about belief, not about physical evidence, because buy they're very nature, are not physical.
There is a spiritual world, which can not be seen with those physical eyes...like the angels of God, they can not be seen...that's the lie of the Devil that there is not a after life, and everything ends in the grave...

[Peebothuhlu]

As a christian, my opinion is that imortality is real, it exists. Not in this life, in this life we die once, then we will live forever...either to eternal suffering in hell, or to eternal joy and happiness in heaven, with God.
Hebrews 9:27:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..."

As Minimalist already asked,

"What have you to offer as actual proof/evidence?"

NDE's are just that 'NEAR death.'

Basically they're only a quick ride away from Miracle Max.

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It's nice that you believe in things. Yay.

So, to put it mildly, other than your feelings what have you got to further your claims?

Not at work.

[Peebothuhlu]

There is a spiritual world, which can not be seen with those physical eyes...like the angels of God, they can not be seen...that's the lie of the Devil that there is not a after life, and everything ends in the grave...

Sorry, I'd like to highlight this comment/claim/statement.

okay. You propose there's thes 'OTHER" realms.

Do they interact with our 'Reality'?

If so, how? When? Where?

If this 'Other reality' can touch us? Why can't we touch back?

Cheers.

Not at work.

[Minimalist]

Yes I agree that probably quotes from the Bible are not evidences...but I think regarding imortality it's hard to find "real" evidences, simply by the nature of this problem.

Okay.  Then simply admit that you believe it because you want to believe in it.  Period.

I knew a guy who bought one lottery ticket every week because he believed he would eventually win.  He never did but his belief was unshaken.

And, at the very least, he was secure in the absolute knowledge that someone did win the lottery every few weeks.

You have stumbled into a place with a lot of people who do not believe a word of it.  I am one of them.

[Alan V]

Yes I agree that probably quotes from the Bible are not evidences...but I think regarding immortality it's hard to find "real" evidences, simply by the nature of this problem.

Okay.  Then simply admit that you believe it because you want to believe in it.  Period.

When I was younger, I spent years searching for evidence of immortality.  That was the basis of my decades-long study of mysticism.  However, it was a mistake simply to look for evidence FOR something I wanted to believe in.  I should have been looking for evidence both FOR and AGAINST.  It turned out there was a convincing amount of evidence against immortality: that consciousness is brain-dependent.
     
"It seems unarguable that we will never fully understand consciousness without understanding its components because those components are so clearly building blocks in a bootstrapping process." (Hobson, 1999 p. 91)

This is a list of some of the brain structures required for consciousness per scientific studies of brain damage cases, brain scans, and so on:
* primary sensory nerves: sensation (Hobson, 1999 p. 89)
* brainstem and spinal cord: sensorimotor data collectors (mediating sensation) and emitters (mediating movement) (Hobson, 1999 p. 69)
* motor system: action (Hobson, 1999 p. 89)
* medulla: programs many autonomic functions essential to consciousness as well as organizing posture and controlling head and neck position (Hobson, 1999 p. 69)
* hypothalamus: instinct, automatic action (Hobson, 1999 p. 63)
* amygdala: emotion and instinct (Hobson, 1999 p. 63)
* lymbic lobe: emotions (Hobson, 1999 p. 89)
* reticular formation: activates brain modules (Hobson, 1999 p. 69); coordinates, communicates (with activation), unifies activity (with modulation) of the modular brain (Hobson, 1999 p. 72); an on-off switch for consciousness (Hobson, 1999 p. 70)
* cerebellum: procedural memory (learning) (Hobson, 1999 p. 63)
* hippocampus: recent memory (learning) (Hobson, 1999 pp. 63)
* thalamus and cortex: perception and attention (Hobson, 1999 p. 89)
* cortex: sensation, perception, attention, and remote memory (Hobson, 1999 p. 69), orientation (Hobson, 1999 p. 89)
* associative cortex: stores remote and explicit memories (Hobson, 1999 p. 63)
* dorsolateral prefrontal cortex: working memory, deliberate action, analytic thought, planning strategy (Hobson, 1999 p. 63)
* language cortex (temporal lobe): language, communicating verbally (Hobson, 1999 pp. 63 and 89)
     
"If a novel experience is to be recorded in memory, the hippocampus must be intact on at least one side of the brain." ... "The hippocampus is not involved in long-term memory storage and retrieval." ... "Once the hippocampus has processed a new input, the data are distributed throughout the cortex, where they are stored associatively for future reference." (Hobson, 1999 p. 62)
     
"Language -- that is, communication via symbolic representation -- is organized in one cerebral hemisphere, which is called the dominant hemisphere if it also controls our preferred hand. There is a strong statistical tendency for humans to be right-handed and left-brained." (Hobson, 1999 p. 64)

Subtract all of these brain structures, and what is left of consciousness to survive death?

"Whatever mind or soul there is, it is born, lives, and dies with the brain. In fact, there are cases when the mind dies while the brain is still alive, but is no longer capable of self-activation. Technically and legally, we refer to this permanent state of inactivation as 'brain death.'" (Hobson, 1994 p. 207) "I do not think that either the ego or the self survives the death of the brain. This is self-evident: consider cases of senile dementia, especially the dementia caused by Alzheimer's disease. When the neurons die, the transcendental ego dissolves. It has not gone someplace else, it has simply died." (Hobson, 2015 p. 116)

[SYZ]

As a christian, my opinion is that immortality is real, it exists. Not in this life, in this life we die once, then we will live forever...either to eternal suffering in hell, or to eternal joy and happiness in heaven, with God.
Hebrews 9:27:
"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment..."

Unfortunately, on this forum, the Abrahamic bible is not regarded as evidence for the claims it makes.

Consider this:

   THE PREMISES:
   1. The scriptures say that God exists;
   2. The scriptures are true because they were written by God;
   3. Who inspired these individuals? (God did);
   4. God is the source and guarantee of truth.

   CONCLUSION:  God exists.

This is a classic circular argument.

It assumes what it is trying to prove and thus is considered to be one of the poorest arguments
of all those offered to prove the existence of god. Premise 2 and 4 actually contain the conclusion
in it.  But the argument is supposed to lead you to the conclusion and not assume the conclusion
within the premises.  You must accept that the book is from god in order to accept it as being
truthful and accurate.  When you accept the bible as being truthful and accurate, and you read in
it that there is a god—that's what you needed to think in order to accept the book as being
truthful and accurate in the first place.

[Alan V]

There is a spiritual world, which can not be seen with those physical eyes...like the angels of God, they can not be seen...that's the lie of the Devil that there is not a after life, and everything ends in the grave... [My bolding.]

Claiming that their opponents are misled by the Devil is very convenient for the people trying to sell you a way to immortality.

[AlinC.]

Here is what I meant by saying That the angels of God can not be seen...
2 Kings chap. 6:
15 When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. “Oh no, my lord! What shall we do?” the servant asked.

16 “Don’t be afraid,”(H) the prophet answered. “Those who are with us are more(I) than those who are with them.”

17 And Elisha prayed, “Open his eyes, Lord, so that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
So it is with the demonic world, they can not be seen, but they exists.
I've actualully heard demonic spirits for years...

[Alan V]

Here is what I meant by saying That the angels of God can not be seen...
2 Kings chap. 6:
15 When the servant of the man of God got up and went out early the next morning, an army with horses and chariots had surrounded the city. “Oh no, my lord! What shall we do?” the servant asked.

16 “Don’t be afraid,”(H) the prophet answered. “Those who are with us are more(I) than those who are with them.”

17 And Elisha prayed, “Open his eyes, Lord, so that he may see.” Then the Lord opened the servant’s eyes, and he looked and saw the hills full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
So it is with the demonic world, they can not be seen, but they exists.
I've actually heard demonic spirits for years...

Actually, what has happened is that you have interpreted your experiences the way you have learned to.  The reality is that for some of us, our brains play tricks on us from time to time.  The line between the objective and subjective is blurred.  You need more evidence than that, especially since there is so much evidence against your perspective.

Ever hear the story, The Emperor's New Clothes?

[AlinC.]

There is a spiritual world, which can not be seen with those physical eyes...like the angels of God, they can not be seen...that's the lie of the Devil that there is not a after life, and everything ends in the grave... [My bolding.]

Claiming that their opponents are misled by the Devil is very convenient for the people trying to sell you a way to immortality.

No I just said what I've read in the Bible, in the sense that is the lie of the devil that life after death doesn't exist, so you believe you live your life as you want to, having no fear of God at all, and then when you die, the demons will take you and will laugh at you, mocking you and will throw you in fire, in hell, and they will torment you and torture you while you are in fire...because the Bible says that the Devil and his demons will not be thrown in the eternal fire but only after a period of time after the comming of Jesus, until then they are free, and they torture the people who are in hell...so yes, in that senseiîs the lie of the devil...the Devil is called in the Bible the deceiver:
Revelation 12:9
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Mathew 3:12
12" His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire"

[Szuchow]

There is a spiritual world, which can not be seen with those physical eyes...like the angels of God, they can not be seen...that's the lie of the Devil that there is not a after life, and everything ends in the grave... [My bolding.]

Claiming that their opponents are misled by the Devil is very convenient for the people trying to sell you a way to immortality.

No I just said what I've read in the Bible, in the sense that is the lie of the devil that life after death doesn't exist, so you believe you live your life as you want to, having no fear of God at all, and then when you die, the demons will take you and will laugh at you, mocking you and will throw you in fire, in hell, and they will torment you and torture you while you are in fire...because the Bible says that the Devil and his demons will not be thrown in the eternal fire but only after a period of time after the comming of Jesus, until then they are free, and they torture the people who are in hell...so yes, in that senseiîs the lie of the devil...the Devil is called in the Bible the deceiver:
Revelation 12:9
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Mathew 3:12
12" His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire"

You do realize that no one but you buy into this fairy tale here? You could quote [far better written] Silmarillion and it would have the same effect.

[Alan V]

There is a spiritual world, which can not be seen with those physical eyes...like the angels of God, they can not be seen...that's the lie of the Devil that there is not a after life, and everything ends in the grave... [My bolding.]

Claiming that their opponents are misled by the Devil is very convenient for the people trying to sell you a way to immortality.

No I just said what I've read in the Bible, in the sense that is the lie of the devil that life after death doesn't exist, so you believe you live your life as you want to, having no fear of God at all, and then when you die, the demons will take you and will laugh at you, mocking you and will throw you in fire, in hell, and they will torment you and torture you while you are in fire...because the Bible says that the Devil and his demons will not be thrown in the eternal fire but only after a period of time after the coming of Jesus, until then they are free, and they torture the people who are in hell...so yes, in that senseiîs the lie of the devil...the Devil is called in the Bible the deceiver:
Revelation 12:9
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Mathew 3:12
12" His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire"

Anyone who repeats such stories as if they are facts, without confirming them in any way, is equally culpable for willfully misleading people.  No devils are required.

Fear is a bad teacher.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I've actualully heard demonic spirits for years...

[Thingymebob]

Well that didn't take long.

[Thingymebob]

There is a spiritual world, which can not be seen with those physical eyes...like the angels of God, they can not be seen...that's the lie of the Devil that there is not a after life, and everything ends in the grave... [My bolding.]

Claiming that their opponents are misled by the Devil is very convenient for the people trying to sell you a way to immortality.

No I just said what I've read in the Bible, in the sense that is the lie of the devil that life after death doesn't exist, so you believe you live your life as you want to, having no fear of God at all, and then when you die, the demons will take you and will laugh at you, mocking you and will throw you in fire, in hell, and they will torment you and torture you while you are in fire...because the Bible says that the Devil and his demons will not be thrown in the eternal fire but only after a period of time after the comming of Jesus, until then they are free, and they torture the people who are in hell...so yes, in that senseiîs the lie of the devil...the Devil is called in the Bible the deceiver:
Revelation 12:9
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Mathew 3:12
12" His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire"

Is this the same devil that made Will Smith slap Chris Rock at the Oscars?

I had high hopes for you.

[Dancefortwo]

There is a spiritual world, which can not be seen with those physical eyes...like the angels of God, they can not be seen...that's the lie of the Devil that there is not a after life, and everything ends in the grave... [My bolding.]

Claiming that their opponents are misled by the Devil is very convenient for the people trying to sell you a way to immortality.

No I just said what I've read in the Bible, in the sense that is the lie of the devil that life after death doesn't exist, so you believe you live your life as you want to, having no fear of God at all, and then when you die, the demons will take you and will laugh at you, mocking you and will throw you in fire, in hell, and they will torment you and torture you while you are in fire...because the Bible says that the Devil and his demons will not be thrown in the eternal fire but only after a period of time after the comming of Jesus, until then they are free, and they torture the people who are in hell...so yes, in that senseiîs the lie of the devil...the Devil is called in the Bible the deceiver:
Revelation 12:9
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Mathew 3:12
12" His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire"

Dear sir.  I could quote the entire Hindu holy book and none of it is evidence of Lord Vishnu. Same thing with the Bible.  As I said earlier, what you need to prove the god in that book exists is to provide incontrovertible, unbiased evidence outside of the book and then you might have something.   The only place you will find magical stories of a god are in holy books.  Except for a few exceptions most of the characters in the Bible are mythical or based on old family lore.   Most of the events in the Bible have been disproven through archaeology.  So again, quoting from the Bible is a waste of key strokes.