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Jehovah's Nature
#26

Jehovah's Nature
I don't disagree that the Christian god is a capricious dick, Nathan, but your argument grants that Christianity's unsubstantiated assertion that god is entirely self-consistent is true. Further, if this can be shown to be untrue then we have simply disproven a particular dogma about their particular deity, not really the deity itself. I am not sure that this is even an attribute of god that is directly derivable from the Bible, but even if it is, it would be via a particular hermaneutic. In other words this is either coming from a particular interpretational system for understanding the Bible, or from the dusty rectums of theologians trying to "reason" about god. Theists change (and sometimes mix!) hermaneutic systems, and theologians constantly disagree with each other, so if you could prove this point, all Christians would do is adjust a little and keep on going. Theirs is a maddeningly sturdy delusion.

The sad truth is that religious faith is a failed epistemology, and believers and their myriad sects have extensive experience in deflecting, ignoring, moving goalposts and otherwise covering for the fact that deities don't accurately explain or predict anything about observed experience. Or put another way, god is not a necessary entity to interact with reality. This makes reality a stubborn problem for them, and denying reality is something they're very good at.

Finally, religions with capricious, self-contradictory or flawed deities have thrived throughout human history. The Greek pantheon comes to mind. Some religions aren't afraid to have deities that are just glorified versions of humans, warts and all. Christianity's need to deny their own humanity rather than embrace and understand and even celebrate it, is why Christians tend to have a broomstick up their ass trying to style themselves as well on their way to perfection.
[/quote]

All this argument does is meet them on their level.  We all know that the god of the Bible is not a good god, but this argument is meant to meet Christians on their assertion that God is perfect and never contradicts Himself.  I have Christians many times simply ignore the problem of evil by calling god mysterious.  This is just an argument against god in the way that the Christians define him.  A good question to bring to questions that I have never once received a good answer on is, if God is good why would He force us into existence where we very likely will end up in hell?  God set lives into motion foreknowing they would go to hell (many Christians do not believe in predestination, but all Christians agree god knows who is going to hell or who is not,) so how is this grace and love?  We had no choice to exist, therefore existence is unjust.  I apologize for my very short post, I wrote it in a few minuets before I had to go to work and now that I look at it I did not articulate what I meant very well.  This is a topic I have brought up to many Christians now and none of them have an answer for it.
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#27

Jehovah's Nature
God is mysterious. Panic Hell, he's the bogeyman that authority figures use for control and manipulation.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#28

Jehovah's Nature
(10-21-2020, 07:55 PM)SYZ Wrote: G'day mate, and welcome to the forum.               Sun

(If a Christian asks you to disprove his god's existence, just ask him
to prove leprechauns don't exist... and then just walk away.)

A couple of evangelicals asked me that question once. I replied by saying, "You can prove that God doesn't exist all by yourself. Define God. What are God's attributes?"

It completely stopped them in their tracks and they just remained mute with bewildered expressions on their faces. Such was the level of their indoctrination that they were completely incapable of forming rational, coherent thoughts if they had to depart from their memorized scripts of responses.  Dodgy
“I expect to pass this way but once; any good therefore that I can do, or any kindness that I can show to any fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for I shall not pass this way again.” (Etienne De Grellet)
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#29

Jehovah's Nature
I did not have time to really explain what I mean with my last post, so I will now.  People brought up the fact this is an argument based of off interpretation.  Yes, that  is correct.  When discussing with Christians it is important to meet with them on their level, and show how broken their interpretation is and then they will understand the problem of evil.  If you bring up the problem of evil to most Christians, they either call God mysterious or blame the problem of evil on us, which is of course ridiculous, which I want to explain my opinion on more later.  What I am trying to communicate is that in a discussion, first we need to show how broken their interpretation of the Bible is.  Once they can understand the fact that their interpretation is illogical, then we can have a proper discussion about how awful the god of the bible is.  My argument here is going against the interpretation that most Christians accept being that god is perfect, holy, just, loving, full of grace, and unchangeable.  

To make my point I want to make an illustration.  Say you force a group of people to participate in a game that you have made.  If you win, you receive unimaginable wealth and if you loose your are tortured for the rest of your life.  In this game the rules are not very clear, there are thousands of people that tell you different rules for the game and different paths to follow in order to win.  None of these people have very good reasons on why their rules are the right rules, so it is very confusing.  The creator of this game has not made the right rules very clear at all, instead he allows these thousands of other people to tell you different rules all of which will result in your torment.  To take this illustration a step further, imagine that the creator of this game had a list of people that he already knew would win, and a list of people that would be tortured.  Also I would like to take this another step further by suggestion that the people forced into this game are not just random people but they are the children of the creator of this game.  I am convinced that any Christian would call this game horrific and evil, but this is the very doctrine almost all Christians cling on to so desperately.  Nobody could call the creator of this game fair or loving, I do not see how anyone could possible call the god of the Bible loving.  We are forced into an existence that will either end up in our eternal torment or in our eternal happiness.  We had absolutely no choice in participating in this cruel "game."  The graceful, loving god set lives into motion that are going to hell.  It is like god has a map for every human life in front of him.  He sees the choices they will make, he sees where they will end up.  He set all of these lives into motion already knowing the outcome.  Christians attempt to scream free will at the top of their lungs.  It does not matter if we have free will or not, god still set our individual lives into motion already knowing the outcome.  It is like winding up a wind up toy on the end of a table and watching it fall off.  Since god clearly defies his nature (rather Christians interpretation of his nature) this god that people have made does not exist. No Christian can justify this, and I have watched them pathetically try too.  I wish Christians could just accept their faulty interpretation of the Bible instead of clinging onto it so desperately.

This is a point that I sincerely wish people made more.  It really does work, and I have seen it cause many Christians to question their faith.

Once you have convinced them that their interpretation of the Bible is ridiculous, then they will be able to understand why there never was, and never will be a Jehovah.
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#30

Jehovah's Nature
Religious faith is *not even* an epistemology in Christianity.
Ephesians 2: 8-9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God--not by works, so that no one may boast.
Test
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#31

Jehovah's Nature
Hey @Dom or any Mod - can we get this attached to the end of his origional "Jehovah's Nature" thread? It seems it would be more relevant there.
Thanks. Shy
________________________________________________
A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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#32

Jehovah's Nature
Quote:People brought up the fact this is an argument based of off interpretation.

But that is true of all religious arguments as their proponents have no "facts" just opinions.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#33

Jehovah's Nature
Clarifying Jehovah's butter?
Don't mistake me for those nice folks from Give-A-Shit county.
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#34

Jehovah's Nature
In my experience it's very difficult to get any believer to accept that they operate on false premises. That is particularly true of the Abrahamic faiths, and the more conservative / authoritarian the believer, the worse the problem.

People who are unbelievers fall into these categories in my observation:

1) Were not raised religious and had no particular inclination to it.
2) Were raised culturally religious but chose to go their own way in adulthood
3) Had terrific bullshit filters even as children and chose to go against parents, even those who took their religion Very Seriously.
4) Stuck with the religion unless and until enough cognitive dissonance built up that it was more painful to cling to the religion than to reject it.

The dissonance described in #4 generally takes the form of at least 2 or more major tragic life events touching on one's immediate family circle. Suffering and/or death of loved ones, marital collapse, terrible tragic accidents, things like that. As a friend related her experience to me the other day, she was stalwart until one random day her daughter confided that she was having a hard time believing and she said, you know what, so am I, let's quit going to church. And just like that, it was done. But that was after her first husband announced he was leaving her for a younger woman that he believed god had found for him, and after an abusive second marriage. That was her Two Tragedies. For me it was my first wife succumbing to severe mental illness and my second dying of a rare physical disease. Such things make the pain of changing less than the pain of not changing.

When it comes to fundamentalism as one's religion of origin, it's over 90% #4 and the rest is #3. The first two are non-starters by definition. By and large, fundamentalists aren't critical thinkers or you'd see some peeled away by just paying attention to the logical fallacy of most of the teachings. But people with critical thinking skills don't join such sects to begin with, unless under a false pretense to get into, or hold together, a marriage or some such.

All of which is to say, while anti-proselytizing is a noble impulse, I haven't found it particularly effective for me personally. I have a fundagelical brother and I can reach him, but he's 78 and just gets mad and makes it clear he has no desire to think these things through. And why not, it works for him. The abstraction hasn't leaked enough. He's old, and doesn't have much more time. He's not interested, and I have to respect that.

It's not like I'm saving his eternal soul or something. He's a self-limiting problem, even as to whatever damage he's causing to others. He's an old guy with 3rd stage kidney failure via diabetes. He sleeps the sleep of the just and will die believing he has everything sorted. I can't really be arsed to care that much about it, TBH. I just try to appreciate him as my brother on a human level, and ignore his religious bloviations.
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#35

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 04:04 PM)Kim Wrote: Hey @Dom or any Mod - can we get this attached to the end of his origional "Jehovah's Nature" thread?  It seems it would be more relevant there.
Thanks.   Shy

sorry about that, im a noob lol
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#36

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 04:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:People brought up the fact this is an argument based of off interpretation.

But that is true of all religious arguments as their proponents have no "facts" just opinions.

I am just referring to what I have read in books about the God of the Bible's nature.  I am arguing against the fact that God is all loving and completely just, which is what most Christians believe.
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#37

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 04:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:People brought up the fact this is an argument based of off interpretation.

But that is true of all religious arguments as their proponents have no "facts" just opinions.

yes the title was very stupid lol, titles are not my thing
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#38

Jehovah's Nature
I was stupid and posted this as an entirely different discussion lol so this is what I put in the new discussion for those who have not seen it:

I did not have time to really explain what I mean with my last post, so I will now.  People brought up the fact this is an argument based of off interpretation.  Yes, that  is correct.  When discussing with Christians it is important to meet with them on their level, and show how broken their interpretation is and then they will understand the problem of evil.  If you bring up the problem of evil to most Christians, they either call God mysterious or blame the problem of evil on us, which is of course ridiculous, which I want to explain my opinion on more later.  What I am trying to communicate is that in a discussion, first we need to show how broken their interpretation of the Bible is.  Once they can understand the fact that their interpretation is illogical, then we can have a proper discussion about how awful the god of the bible is.  My argument here is going against the interpretation that most Christians accept being that god is perfect, holy, just, loving, full of grace, and unchangeable.  

To make my point I want to make an illustration.  Say you force a group of people to participate in a game that you have made.  If you win, you receive unimaginable wealth and if you loose your are tortured for the rest of your life.  In this game the rules are not very clear, there are thousands of people that tell you different rules for the game and different paths to follow in order to win.  None of these people have very good reasons on why their rules are the right rules, so it is very confusing.  The creator of this game has not made the right rules very clear at all, instead he allows these thousands of other people to tell you different rules all of which will result in your torment.  To take this illustration a step further, imagine that the creator of this game had a list of people that he already knew would win, and a list of people that would be tortured.  Also I would like to take this another step further by suggestion that the people forced into this game are not just random people but they are the children of the creator of this game.  I am convinced that any Christian would call this game horrific and evil, but this is the very doctrine almost all Christians cling on to so desperately.  Nobody could call the creator of this game fair or loving, I do not see how anyone could possible call the god of the Bible loving.  We are forced into an existence that will either end up in our eternal torment or in our eternal happiness.  We had absolutely no choice in participating in this cruel "game."  The graceful, loving god set lives into motion that are going to hell.  It is like god has a map for every human life in front of him.  He sees the choices they will make, he sees where they will end up.  He set all of these lives into motion already knowing the outcome.  Christians attempt to scream free will at the top of their lungs.  It does not matter if we have free will or not, god still set our individual lives into motion already knowing the outcome.  It is like winding up a wind up toy on the end of a table and watching it fall off.  Since god clearly defies his nature (rather Christians interpretation of his nature) this god that people have made does not exist. No Christian can justify this, and I have watched them pathetically try too.  I wish Christians could just accept their faulty interpretation of the Bible instead of clinging onto it so desperately.

This is a point that I sincerely wish people made more.  It really does work, and I have seen it cause many Christians to question their faith.

Once you have convinced them that their interpretation of the Bible is ridiculous, then they will be able to understand why there never was, and never will be a Jehovah.
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#39

Jehovah's Nature
Threads merged.
[Image: color%5D%5Bcolor=#333333%5D%5Bsize=small%5D%5Bfont=T...ans-Serif%5D]
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#40

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 05:30 PM)Dom Wrote: Threads merged.

thanks
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#41

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 05:17 PM)nathan_mccormick Wrote:
(10-22-2020, 04:32 PM)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote:People brought up the fact this is an argument based of off interpretation.

But that is true of all religious arguments as their proponents have no "facts" just opinions.

I am just referring to what I have read in books about the God of the Bible's nature.  I am arguing against the fact that God is all loving and completely just, which is what most Christians believe.

What xtians "believe" is the least of my problems.  Any idiot who thinks a dead jew came back to life and flew up to heaven is a superstitious twit.  Period.

Best said by:

[Image: awflw.jpg]
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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#42

Jehovah's Nature
Unless/until a christian (or other religious person) tries to force their version of religion on me I typically don't have this discussion with them.

If they need the fantasy belief to be happy I typically keep my mouth shut unless I'm confronted. IRL, telling them I'm atheist usually stops all religious discussion.

I'm not going to argue the validity/consistency of claimed attributes from their story book.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#43

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 05:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: The triangle. Feser's triangle thingy. He thought it was great. His explanation for why we share the (universal) concept.
I added a couple sentences above to the Aquinas and Aristotle business. Roman theology was *later* justified (supposedly) using it.
I don't agree it's "built" on it, originally.

I didn't realize that was Feser's. Neo-Scholastic at AF always used to bring up triangles, now I know why.
Mountain-high though the difficulties appear, terrible and gloomy though all things seem, they are but Mâyâ.
Fear not — it is banished. Crush it, and it vanishes. Stamp upon it, and it dies.


Vivekananda
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#44

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 01:19 PM)nathan_mccormick Wrote: When discussing with Christians it is important to meet with them on their level, and show how broken their interpretation is and then they will understand the problem of evil...


Whilst I agree with the thrust of your well articulated comments mate, I have to to disagree with
this particular contention.  It's not a matter of us  sinking to their  illogical, unscientific, irrational
level of fantasy fiction—they must rise to our level of rationale in order to debate issues of religious
beliefs.  From my perspective, there's absolutely no point wasting your time even contemplating
debating the pros and cons of religion with theists—as an atheist you'll NEVER have a "win" and
you'll inevitably walk away feeling either frustrated or angry.    Who needs that stress?

Quote:... first we need to show how broken their interpretation of the Bible is.

Hasn't happened in 2,000 years, and never will. 

Quote:Once they can understand the fact that their interpretation is illogical, then we can have a proper discussion about how awful the god of the bible is.

Theists never will.  To them, all the fantasy, superstitions, fiction, magic, and misinterpretations
contained within their holy books are the absolutely inerrant truths of  the world and all who inhabit it.

Quote:I wish Christians could just accept their faulty interpretation of the Bible instead of clinging onto it so desperately.

One problem mate; Christians are incapable of "just" accepting their their holy book could be wrong.
In actuality they'll say your lack of belief is wrong, and you should accept their gods.  Incidentally,
it's erroneous to describe Christians as "desperately" "clinging" on to their beliefs.  There's no desperation
involved on their part, and as atheists we need to be wary of using pejorative terms in our argument.

Quote:... I have seen it cause many Christians to question their faith.

Citations please.  In all my years as an atheist (too many LOL) I have never seen this happen.

Quote:Once you have convinced them that their interpretation of the Bible is ridiculous, then they will be able to understand why there never was, and never will be a Jehovah.

Sorry mate... dream on.      Tongue
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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#45

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 08:33 PM)Dānu Wrote:
(10-22-2020, 05:27 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote: The triangle. Feser's triangle thingy. He thought it was great. His explanation for why we share the (universal) concept.
I added a couple sentences above to the Aquinas and Aristotle business. Roman theology was *later* justified (supposedly) using it.
I don't agree it's "built" on it, originally.

I didn't realize that was Feser's.  Neo-Scholastic at AF always used to bring up triangles, now I know why.

He's got like 10 kids. Too bad he actually knows nothing about how they learn things.
Test
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#46

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 05:21 PM)nathan_mccormick Wrote: This is a point that I sincerely wish people made more.  It really does work, and I have seen it cause many Christians to question their faith.

Once you have convinced them that their interpretation of the Bible is ridiculous, then they will be able to understand why there never was, and never will be a Jehovah.

Tell us a bit about yourself, Nathan. I take it you're a former evangelical. What precipitated your deconversion? How long ago was it?

Personally, I entered the faith at age 5 more or less when my whole family entered it -- as the youngest of 4 boys with a 20 year spread from myself to the oldest. Exited at about age 37, though really it was the culmination of a gradual process that started in my 20s. I'm 63 now. So ... it's been > 25 years since I bid it goodbye.

I recall being a little more ... shall we say, "evangelical" about my atheism at first, or at least I felt something of a "burden" to "reach" my former compatriots. Somewhere along the line, I lost that. I used to spend time thinking about such things as you're discussing, but haven't given it much thought in a long time.

I guess my basic malfunction was that leaving the fundagelical world resolved a lot of very uncomfortable cognitive dissonance for me. I was really, REALLY tired of excusing / explaining / rationalizing all the impedance mismatch between "the promises of god" and pesky ol' reality. To wrestle with my former zealots was like re-inflicting that dissonance on myself, plus, it was generally like nailing jello to a wall.

I have stuck for a long time to discussion in fora like this where I figure that even the most strident Christer is probably here because on some level they have concerns or doubts. But over the past 5 years or so, I've lost the enthusiasm even for that.

I'm not saying I'm right, or that you're wasting your time; I'm just saying, that's been the story arc of my godlessness anyway. Unlike a fundamentalist, what success looks like to me isn't saving believers from their belief. If it works for them, I'm not sure there's even much point in disturbing their composure, TBH. My main concern is the influence of fundamentalism on public policy and discourse. If it wasn't for their wet dreams of an autocratic theocracy that turns back the clock on decades of work on civil liberties and environmental protections, I would happily leave them to their fantasies. As it is, they're a menace to civilization. Still, it's easier to counter their political ideas than their theological ones. Theology is a slippery thing, a funhouse hall of mirrors full of constantly moving goalposts. At least it doesn't translate well to the real world, and this can be demonstrated by addressing facts and figures that don't directly threaten their godboy.

Curious where you're at on this journey.
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#47

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 10:04 PM)SYZ Wrote:
(10-22-2020, 01:19 PM)nathan_mccormick Wrote: When discussing with Christians it is important to meet with them on their level, and show how broken their interpretation is and then they will understand the problem of evil...


Whilst I agree with the thrust of your well articulated comments mate, I have to to disagree with
this particular contention.  It's not a matter of us  sinking to their  illogical, unscientific, irrational
level of fantasy fiction—they must rise to our level of rationale in order to debate issues of religious
beliefs.  From my perspective, there's absolutely no point wasting your time even contemplating
debating the pros and cons of religion with theists—as an atheist you'll NEVER have a "win" and
you'll inevitably walk away feeling either frustrated or angry.    Who needs that stress?

Quote:... first we need to show how broken their interpretation of the Bible is.

Hasn't happened in 2,000 years, and never will. 

Quote:Once they can understand the fact that their interpretation is illogical, then we can have a proper discussion about how awful the god of the bible is.

Theists never will.  To them, all the fantasy, superstitions, fiction, magic, and misinterpretations
contained within their holy books are the absolutely inerrant truths of  the world and all who inhabit it.

Quote:I wish Christians could just accept their faulty interpretation of the Bible instead of clinging onto it so desperately.

One problem mate; Christians are incapable of "just" accepting their their holy book could be wrong.
In actuality they'll say your lack of belief is wrong, and you should accept their gods.  Incidentally,
it's erroneous to describe Christians as "desperately" "clinging" on to their beliefs.  There's no desperation
involved on their part, and as atheists we need to be wary of using pejorative terms in our argument.

Quote:... I have seen it cause many Christians to question their faith.

Citations please.  In all my years as an atheist (too many LOL) I have never seen this happen.

Quote:Once you have convinced them that their interpretation of the Bible is ridiculous, then they will be able to understand why there never was, and never will be a Jehovah.

Sorry mate... dream on.      Tongue

I find your take on this very interesting, and I accept your opinion.  Coming from someone who grew up in a very strong Christian community, yes we must stoop to their level, and prove their doctrines irrational.  I have presented this question to many of my Christian friends, and it does cause them to stumble.  I will grant it does take a while for them to wrap their small heads around the fact that a good God would not force people into an existence where they would end up in hell, but it seems to me as though it is a more effective approach then say, the problem of evil because Christians can simply call God mysterious and forget about the question.  You have a point, but in order to get someone to stop believing you just have to give them a question that they cannot answer.  This will start a pattern of doubt in their mind weather they admit it or not (depending on their level of intelligence, if they are not intelligent then it is useless to try and persuade them of anything.)  Yes they do desperately cling on to their beliefs, I do not care if that is offensive I have seen it time and time again.
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#48

Jehovah's Nature
Test
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#49

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 10:21 PM)mordant Wrote:
(10-22-2020, 05:21 PM)nathan_mccormick Wrote: This is a point that I sincerely wish people made more.  It really does work, and I have seen it cause many Christians to question their faith.

Once you have convinced them that their interpretation of the Bible is ridiculous, then they will be able to understand why there never was, and never will be a Jehovah.

Tell us a bit about yourself, Nathan. I take it you're a former evangelical. What precipitated your deconversion? How long ago was it?

Personally, I entered the faith at age 5 more or less when my whole family entered it -- as the youngest of 4 boys with a 20 year spread from myself to the oldest. Exited at about age 37, though really it was the culmination of a gradual process that started in my 20s. I'm 63 now. So ... it's been > 25 years since I bid it goodbye.

I recall being a little more ... shall we say, "evangelical" about my atheism at first, or at least I felt something of a "burden" to "reach" my former compatriots. Somewhere along the line, I lost that. I used to spend time thinking about such things as you're discussing, but haven't given it much thought in a long time.

I guess my basic malfunction was that leaving the fundagelical world resolved a lot of very uncomfortable cognitive dissonance for me. I was really, REALLY tired of excusing / explaining / rationalizing all the impedance mismatch between "the promises of god" and pesky ol' reality. To wrestle with my former zealots was like re-inflicting that dissonance on myself, plus, it was generally like nailing jello to a wall.

I have stuck for a long time to discussion in fora like this where I figure that even the most strident Christer is probably here because on some level they have concerns or doubts. But over the past 5 years or so, I've lost the enthusiasm even for that.

I'm not saying I'm right, or that you're wasting your time; I'm just saying, that's been the story arc of my godlessness anyway. Unlike a fundamentalist, what success looks like to me isn't saving believers from their belief. If it works for them, I'm not sure there's even much point in disturbing their composure, TBH. My main concern is the influence of fundamentalism on public policy and discourse. If it wasn't for their wet dreams of an autocratic theocracy that turns back the clock on decades of work on civil liberties and environmental protections, I would happily leave them to their fantasies. As it is, they're a menace to civilization. Still, it's easier to counter their political ideas than their theological ones. Theology is a slippery thing, a funhouse hall of mirrors full of constantly moving goalposts. At least it doesn't translate well to the real world, and this can be demonstrated by addressing facts and figures that don't directly threaten their godboy.

Curious where you're at on this journey.

Well believe it or not I am 16 actually lol.  I have been raised in a very, very conservative church.  I started doubting a few years ago.  I went to a Christian school that had completely different religious views then that of my church which is definitely enough to cause confusion.  I used to be really into apologetics because I wanted to convince myself that it was all true.  But then I started thinking about God, and the attributes of God.  I went through a very dark time fairly recently which caused me to really question life in general.  I realized the fact after a lot of thought, that it did not make any sense that God would force me to exist.  The story of Jesus dying on the cross hinges on principles of love and grace and justice, and I realized that the fact that a "good" God would force people into an existence knowing that they would go to hell beforehand completely disarmed the attributes of God.  I have thought this way for a while, and it used to just be a question for me but I still held on to my faith because I wanted it to be true.  I eventually just gave up my beliefs because I did not want to lie to myself anymore.  Whenever I talk to people about my beliefs, or rather my lack of beliefs, they are very surprised because most of my friends consider me to be one of the most moral people that they know.  I put so much thought into having reasons why I believe that their faith is ridiculous because most of my friends, and most of the Christians I know mock atheists and think that they are idiots doomed for hell.  How very non-judgmental of them.  I do not want my friends to give up their faith because I think that a life with faith is probably a more hopeful life then one without it, but I do think society could do without religion.
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#50

Jehovah's Nature
(10-22-2020, 11:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:

I agree
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