On This Day In History

[Minimalist]

1809

The opening round of the Battle of Wagram.

The Battle of Wagram (July 5–6, 1809) was one of the most important military engagements of the Napoleonic Wars and ended in a decisive victory for Emperor Napoleon I's French and allied army against the Austrian army under the command of Archduke Charles of Austria-Teschen. The battle virtually spelled the destruction of the Fifth Coalition, the Austrian and British-led alliance against France.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Pretty sure the Germans came a-cropper in Kursk on this day, too.

[Minimalist]

Not a propitious day for soldiers speaking German.

[Cavebear]

1809

The opening round of the Battle of Wagram.

The Battle of Wagram (July 5–6, 1809) was one of the most important military engagements of the Napoleonic Wars and ended in a decisive victory for Emperor Napoleon I's French and allied army against the Austrian army under the command of Archduke Charles of Austria-Teschen. The battle virtually spelled the destruction of the Fifth Coalition, the Austrian and British-led alliance against France.

My French ancestors (via Canada) never accepted that Napoleon was actually an Italian who moved to Corsica the year it became French territory by a treaty.  Some even insisted he was "pure Parisian".  Well, it is understandable.  When a nation has never had a decent General, you grab at what straws you can.  

Hey, I can say that.  I'm half French.  

[abaris]

Not a propitious day for soldiers speaking German.

It's only that the bulk of the Austrian army at Wagram certainly didn't speak German.

[Cavebear]

Not a propitious day for soldiers speaking German.

It's only that the bulk of the Austrian army at Wagram certainly didn't speak German.

German and Austrian language is essentially mutually understandable, differring mostly from only the 1800's. According to Wikipedia.

[abaris]

German and Austrian language is essentially mutually understandable, differring mostly from only the 1800's.  According to Wikipedia.

Not the point. The Austrian Empire was a multiethnic state of 12 different peoples speaking their own language. So an austrian army in 1809 would have been commanded in German, but many of the soldiers just understood the commands and not much else.

It wasn't a naval battle, but as an addendum, the Austrian navy was commanded in Italian till the mid 19th century.

[Cavebear]

German and Austrian language is essentially mutually understandable, differring mostly from only the 1800's.  According to Wikipedia.

Not the point. The Austrian Empire was a multiethnic state of 12 different peoples speaking their own language. So an austrian army in 1809 would have been commanded in German, but many of the soldiers just understood the commands and not much else.

It wasn't a naval battle, but as an addendum, the Austrian navy was commanded in Italian till the mid 19th century.

Well, I'm certainly not going to debate about various ethnic languages in one nation about which I have little knowledge. But I do know there was a difference between "The Austrian Empire" at one point and the single smaller nation of "Austria" at another. Which one does the "12 different peoples" refer to?

[abaris]

Well, I'm certainly not going to debate about various ethnic languages in one nation about which I have little knowledge.  But I do know there was a difference between "The Austrian Empire" at one point and the single smaller nation of "Austria" at another.  Which one does the "12 different peoples" refer to?

Austria 1809



Austria 1919



https://brilliantmaps.com/united-states-austria/

[Cavebear]

Well, I'm certainly not going to debate about various ethnic languages in one nation about which I have little knowledge.  But I do know there was a difference between "The Austrian Empire" at one point and the single smaller nation of "Austria" at another.  Which one does the "12 different peoples" refer to?

Austria 1809



Austria 1919



https://brilliantmaps.com/united-states-austria/

Given the maps, I bet the Italians were not fond of Austrians at the time, LOL! And it is still there about Otzi.

[Deesse23]

German and Austrian language is essentially mutually understandable, differring mostly from only the 1800's.  According to Wikipedia.

Not the point. The Austrian Empire was a multiethnic state of 12 different peoples speaking their own language. So an austrian army in 1809 would have been commanded in German, but many of the soldiers just understood the commands and not much else.

It wasn't a naval battle, but as an addendum, the Austrian navy was commanded in Italian till the mid 19th century.

Lots of people forget that the Austrian Empire was at least 50% non-german. This being the reason for the events that led to the "Kleindeutsche Lösung", enforced by Prussia in 1866 at Königgrätz.

[Cavebear]

German and Austrian language is essentially mutually understandable, differring mostly from only the 1800's.  According to Wikipedia.

Not the point. The Austrian Empire was a multiethnic state of 12 different peoples speaking their own language. So an austrian army in 1809 would have been commanded in German, but many of the soldiers just understood the commands and not much else.

It wasn't a naval battle, but as an addendum, the Austrian navy was commanded in Italian till the mid 19th century.

Lots of people forget that the Austrian Empire was at least 50% non-german. This being the reason for the events that led to the "Kleindeutsche Lösung", enforced by Prussia in 1866 at Königgrätz.

That is interesting. Actually I would have assumed that most Austrians were, well, "Austrian" rather than Germanic. More ethnically "slavic" as is most of eastern Europe. And I mean no disrespect. I know the general historical movements of peoples in Europe, but the details of local situations is beyond my ability to remember on a day-to-day basis. The movement of peoples around the planet is vast and the details are numerous.

[Deesse23]

Well, I'm certainly not going to debate about various ethnic languages in one nation about which I have little knowledge.  But I do know there was a difference between "The Austrian Empire" at one point and the single smaller nation of "Austria" at another.  Which one does the "12 different peoples" refer to?

Austria 1809



Austria 1919



https://brilliantmaps.com/united-states-austria/

Given the maps, I bet the Italians were not fond of Austrians at the time, LOL!  And it is still there about Otzi.

...and vice versa.

Bismarck promised the Italians Venice (which was austrian at the time!) if they hold their feet still while he was dealing with the Austrian Empire.

Start at 3:30     "I mean, how can you have an Italy without a Venice!?" "....for only the small, small price of one Venice"

[Deesse23]

Not the point. The Austrian Empire was a multiethnic state of 12 different peoples speaking their own language. So an austrian army in 1809 would have been commanded in German, but many of the soldiers just understood the commands and not much else.

It wasn't a naval battle, but as an addendum, the Austrian navy was commanded in Italian till the mid 19th century.

Lots of people forget that the Austrian Empire was at least 50% non-german. This being the reason for the events that led to the "Kleindeutsche Lösung", enforced by Prussia in 1866 at Königgrätz.

That is interesting.  Actually I would have assumed that most Austrians were, well, "Austrian" rather than Germanic.  More ethnically "slavic" as is most of eastern Europe.  And I mean no disrespect.  I know the general historical movements of peoples in Europe, but the details of local situations is beyond my ability to remember on a day-to-day basis.  The movement of peoples around the planet is vast and the details are numerous.

Little historical excourse (oversimplified of course): The austrian heartland, which is mostly todays Austria, was german(ic). Of course they speak the same language we germans do (although we tend to find each others accent quite ridiculous, just like...well the english and the USians). It was part of the HRE (holy roman empire). After the Habsburgs came to rule, they carved out their own territory*. After the Luxemburgs (afaik) and others came to power in the HRE and after the central power started to lose its grip and the HRE its cohesion, the Habsburgs kept their lands. At that time the Ottomans pressed into central Europe, and right towards those austrian lands**. In the long run the Habsburgs pushed the Ottomans back and occupied much of the balcans, this territory coming under austrian rule

On a sidenote: When i was in Sibiu/Hermannstadt in Romania, in Transylvania, just north of the carpathians highest peaks, a palace of the local governor was nearby. The Brukenthal Palace. Brukenthal was an austrian governor under Maria Theresia, since Transylvania was an austrian province by then.


*it was custom in the HRE that the reigning emperor was trying to transfer imperial land ino the hands of his own dynasty and make it dynastic lands, separating it from the empire so to speak. Thus making it inheritable and the family could keep its even after the reign of the HRE changed. Its confusing, i know.   This is much like a president trying to make the white house his property, so he can keep it and pass it on, even after a new president is elected. SHIT, hope someone didnt read this.  

**  am ignoring the *hungarian issue* somehwat here, its a story in an of itself, but be it noted it was the Austro-Hungarian Empire to be precise, as you already have seen by the numbers of native languages with hungarian being just as big as german

[Cavebear]

Austria 1809



Austria 1919

Given the maps, I bet the Italians were not fond of Austrians at the time, LOL!  And it is still there about Otzi.

...and vice versa.

Bismarck promised the Italians Venice (which was austrian at the time!) if they hold their feet still while he was dealing with the Austrian Empire.

Start at 3:30     "I mean, how can you have an Italy without a Venice!?" "....for only the small, small price of one Venice"

Ahh, Bismark. cruel genius...

"With a gentleman I am always a gentleman and a half, and with a fraud I try to be a fraud and a half". Meaning, be more than your opponent.

"There is a Providence that protects idiots, drunkards, children and the United States of America". Meaning that Bismark recognized that the US had the advantages of 2 oceans east and west and 2 weak neighbors north and south. Sorry Canada and Mexico, I love you both...

"Whoever speaks of Europe is wrong: it is a geographical expression". Meaning that Europe has always been the place all Asia and Africa has pushed into at times historic and pre-historic.

The US may have been the "melting pot" of Europe, but Europe was the "melting pot" of the rest of the world before that.

[Minimalist]

Much of Napoleon's "French" army was not French, either.  Bernadotte's Corps were Saxons.  Von Wrede's Corp were Bavarians.  Eugene's army of Italy were largely Italian.  Etc.  One of Eugene's Division commanders was named "MacDonald."

Nationality was a much more fluid concept.

[abaris]

That is interesting.  Actually I would have assumed that most Austrians were, well, "Austrian" rather than Germanic.  More ethnically "slavic" as is most of eastern Europe.  And I mean no disrespect.  I know the general historical movements of peoples in Europe, but the details of local situations is beyond my ability to remember on a day-to-day basis.  The movement of peoples around the planet is vast and the details are numerous.

Even now there are Croatian, Slovenian and Roma minorities living in Austria. Especially in Vienna there are a lot of people with mixed heritage. In the 19th century Vienna saw an influx from all provinces of the empire. Hungarians, Bohemians, Poles and Ukranians migrated in hopes of finding a better life in the capital. If you open a phone book, you hardly find any German name although today's generation is speaking German. My own name is hungarian.

[abaris]

Fun fact: The frequent struggle for Vienna left it's traces in the Viennese dialect also. The Viennese word for "shut up" is "Kusch", derrived from the french word "coucher", which basically means lie down or be still. A remnant of the occupation after the battle of Wagram. The two turkish sieges of 1529 and 1683 also left a trace. The Viennese word for a long and tedious walk is "Hatschen", which of course, comes from the muslim pilgrimage to Mekka, called the Hajj. There's also the derogative term for Germans - "Piefke". Piefke originally was a Prussian ambassador in Vienna, who wasn't well liked because he is said to have been too full of himself.

[Minimalist]

In May of 1809 when Napoleon shelled Vienna Ludwig Van Beethoven hid in a cellar.

[Deesse23]

"Piefke".

The coffe house culture. Isnt that also an effect of contact with the Turks?

[abaris]

The coffe house culture. Isnt that also an effect of contact with the Turks?

More of an urban legend.

[no one]

200,00 BCE

Male homosapien farts, creates the first dutch oven.

[Dānu]

1940 The Battle of Britain begins, as German planes attack shipping convoys off the south-east coast of England.

[Minimalist]

200,00 BCE

Male homosapien farts, creates the first dutch oven.

And a moment later another guy made the first fart joke and all the other HSS laughed their asses off!

[Mr Greene]

On a sidenote: When i was in Sibiu/Hermannstadt in Romania, in Transylvania, just north of the carpathians highest peaks, a palace of the local governor was nearby. The Brukenthal Palace. Brukenthal was an austrian governor under Maria Theresia, since Transylvania was an austrian province by then.

Sibiu is a fantastic place, near the Transfagarasan (Greatest Road on Earth).
Of course there was always the feeling we were being watched...