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Current wonky diets, best supplements?
#1

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
The Virus That Must Not Be Named (TVTMNBN) is causing weird shortages, gaps, and/or overloads in our food supply. To ensure proper nutrition we might need to pick up some nutrition boosters. This area is completely new to me. Whatcha got?
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#2

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
I'd highly advise against it unless you really *need* it. Finding uncontaminated supplements, particularly multi-vitamins, is incredibly difficult. Not to mention that the vast majority are also very poorly formulated containing lots of cheap worthless vitamins and minerals, and not enough of the stuff you'd actually need if you were nutrient deficient.
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#3

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
Uncomplicated is better?
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#4

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
I understand that the usual multi vitamins are often not well absorbed by our bodies. Whole foods vitamins (vitamins that are less processed) are supposed to fare a lot better in that regard. I also take calcium + vitamin D3 , which us older folks are well advised to supplement.
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#5

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
I take on a daily basis one of each; magnesium, vitamin D (with C) and mega-B.

Magnesium for joints, vitamin D for lack of sunlight exposure, and vitamin B for brain
function (yeah... I know LOL) and blood and nerve function.
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#6

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 11:16 AM)Aractus Wrote: I'd highly advise against it unless you really *need* it. Finding uncontaminated supplements, particularly multi-vitamins, is incredibly difficult. Not to mention that the vast majority are also very poorly formulated containing lots of cheap worthless vitamins and minerals, and not enough of the stuff you'd actually need if you were nutrient deficient.

Agreed.  

Vitamin and mineral supplements are a staple in many people’s diets, but there's increasing
evidence to suggest the most popular ones are essentially useless... a new systematic review
of data and trials published in the Journal of the American College of Cardiology in 2018 found
that many popular multivitamins had no real advantage to people’s health and that there's
no evidence taking them reduced the risk of cardiovascular disease, heart attack, stroke, or early
death.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar...9718345601

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#7

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 11:16 AM)Aractus Wrote: I'd highly advise against it unless you really *need* it. Finding uncontaminated supplements, particularly multi-vitamins, is incredibly difficult. Not to mention that the vast majority are also very poorly formulated containing lots of cheap worthless vitamins and minerals, and not enough of the stuff you'd actually need if you were nutrient deficient.

Documentation?
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#8

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
Meh. I take a single Member's Mark brand multi-vitamin every day. It's the Sam's Club version of Centrum Silver. Hasn't killed me yet. $12.50 plus tax for 13 month's worth. 

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#9

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
I take One-a-Day Men's 50+ now.
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#10

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 12:19 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: I take One-a-Day Men's 50+ now.

You are probably going to be good with that and the V8 in your Bloody Mary.
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#11

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 11:19 AM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: Uncomplicated is better?

You're better off getting your nutrition from food. Unless you're planning to get pregnant, in which case take foliate supplements to reduce the risk of spina bifida.

(03-22-2020, 11:24 AM)Dom Wrote: I understand that the usual multi vitamins are often not well absorbed by our bodies. Whole foods vitamins (vitamins that are less processed) are supposed to fare a lot better in that regard. I also take calcium + vitamin D3 , which us older folks are well advised to supplement.

Yes that has been the advice, but much to my expectation calcium supplements have been shown to be practically useless in preventing bone fractures in old age, and to cause more harm than good. See Reid & Bolland 2019. "In summary, small doses of vitamin D have a place in the prevention of osteomalacia in individuals with specific risk factors. Calcium supplements have very little place in contemporary medical practice." That's not from some random researchers, it's from the same authors as this high quality study that's in Cochrane - the gold standard - trusted, scientific evidence. Also an even more recent article by Chen et al also puts it bluntly: "Nutritional support, such as adequate calcium and vitamin D, as well as exercise are among the crucial cornerstones of the prevention of osteoporosis and are necessary during treatment with pharmacologic agents [1,11–14]. However, current evidence has shown that routine calcium and vitamin D supplements in healthy individuals are not needed. In patients with an adequate vitamin D status and a normal calcium intake, routine calcium and vitamin D supplements are not required in most people receiving treatment for osteoporosis, where routine use has not been shown to affect treatment efficacy [15,16]. ... ". There's a place for Vit. D supplementation, but calcium supplementation does more harm than good.

This is no different to the SIDS advice in the 1980's that switched from lie babies on their tummies to lie them on their backs. The current scientific evidence does not support calcium supplementation. Well perhaps in specific cases, but they literally cause way too much harm in my opinion. Calcium was never shown to be safe to take in supplemental form. Yes I know that claim is still made in certain circles, including osteoporosis organisations - all I can say is god they move slowly and their clinical practise advice doesn't match the science and hasn't for a long time. They've incrementally shifted their advice, at least most of them are now saying it's best to get all the calcium you need from food. At the very least they should move their advice to getting additional calcium from calcium-fortified foods like cereals and bread because as far as we know that is safe - and you can literally get products with extra fortified calcium. Anyway don't take my word for it, talk to your doctor, or read the scientific literature. Vitamin D supplements are safe, and perfectly fine for older people to take - although with the same caution I'd note that you'd ideally want a sports-tested brand because then you know what's on the packet is what you're getting and you're not getting pills with contaminants or incorrect dosages. They are labelled as such, and before you ask yes they obviously exist everywhere: Australia, UK, USA, Europe, they're necessary so that athletes don't accidentally take banned substances from contaminated products (which DOES happen) and pharmacists should be able to help you identify them. I wouldn't trust any supplement that isn't sports tested.
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#12

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
Wow, covered all of two supplements, good for you.

I wonder if Tums (calcium carbonate) has been sports tested?

Eating fortified food is good advice, for more than just D and Ca. Find a fortified cereal with low sugar/refined carbs is your that concerned. Added plus, great shelf life, easy snack food.

GS: Ringers Lactate is not a good supplement, just saying.
Being told you're delusional does not necessarily mean you're mental. 
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#13

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
I am not getting my nutrition from my food, that's why I'm inquiring. Thanks for the good information so far.
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#14

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 01:56 PM)brewerb Wrote: Wow, covered all of two supplements, good for you.

I wonder if Tums (calcium carbonate) has been sports tested?

Eating fortified food is good advice, for more than just D and Ca.

I did a lot of research on supplements. There's a sports-tested supplement for everything, including all the supplements that are actually needed like we've mentioned - foliate, vitamin D, also iron, and others. There's a high risk of iron toxicity with supplementation, so it really should only be taken under the advice of your clinician. Women in particular need iron supplements, and believe it or not it's often children that get iron toxicity often because they take their parents iron supplements! Which should illustrate that dietary supplements should be treated the same way as medications - i.e. out of reach of children. There's an athlete somewhere that either needs to take it, or they think they need to take it because they won't listen to their dietician and they won't take "no" for an answer. But athletes on very restrictive diets like say boxers, or jockeys, they do need a range of supplements as their dietician or nutritionist will advise if they're restricting diet severely.

Calcium like I said - you can read the scientific literature I linked to - it prevents something like 1 in 10,000 fractures and the side-effects as well as increased risk of morbidity from heart disease due to calcium deposits in your arteries make them in the opinion of the experts do more harm than good. You'll eventually see osteoporosis organisations and others update their advice, personally I think it's fucking stupid they're still relying on what was essentially the "wisdom of contemporary opinion" by clinicians. They're resistant to change probably for the reason that their argument would be their healthcare clients need long-term stable advice and the risks and side-effects are not severe enough to warrant a 180. Whatever merit that argument may have had 20 years ago, the evidence has well and truly moved on and it's stuff like this where they continue advocating things that I would say have been long since disproved in science that makes people scared and sceptical of the healthcare system, and the safety of healthcare products. I'm all for letting people choose their own options, but at least be honest and informative about how likely it is that calcium supplementation will actually prevent a fracture (.0001%) and the side effects (up to 30% increase in heart disease, plus also painful kidney stones). Hmm, seems like a no-brainer to me.

Hell like I said, don't take my word for it - talk to your doctor and ask them if studies in Cochrane are trusted evidence to be followed clinically.

In the future they might develop a better supplement, one that's more bio-available. Or to put it another way, for dietary calcium to be *used* by the body other conditions have to be true, it's perfectly feasible they can make calcium bio-available and effective in a supplement. It's also possible that such an endeavour is impossible and that fortification of bread or cereal will be the only safe way to deliver extra calcium in the diet. Here I'm just defining "safe" by the threshold at which the effect of the supplementation is neutral.
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#15

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 02:15 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: I am not getting my nutrition from my food, that's why I'm inquiring. Thanks for the good information so far.

Thanks for sharing. Where are you located? Here's your first point of advice (whatever locality applies):

https://www.choosemyplate.gov/
https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/guidelin...thy-eating

Etc. Probably more fresh vegetables, and fruit, and cutting down on discretionary foods (and yes ALL processed meats are "discretionary" and not actually meat by those guidelines). The more you cut down on discretionary foods, the more they have to be replaced with something of better nutritional value.
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#16

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
Hmmm.
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#17

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 02:31 PM)Aractus Wrote: I did a lot of research on supplements. There's a sports-tested supplement for everything, including all the supplements that are actually needed like we've mentioned - foliate, vitamin D, also iron, and others. There's a high risk of iron toxicity with supplementation, so it really should only be taken under the advice of your clinician. Women in particular need iron supplements, and believe it or not it's often children that get iron toxicity often because they take their parents iron supplements! Which should illustrate that dietary supplements should be treated the same way as medications - i.e. out of reach of children. There's an athlete somewhere that either needs to take it, or they think they need to take it because they won't listen to their dietician and they won't take "no" for an answer. But athletes on very restrictive diets like say boxers, or jockeys, they do need a range of supplements as their dietician or nutritionist will advise if they're restricting diet severely.

Calcium like I said - you can read the scientific literature I linked to - it prevents something like 1 in 10,000 fractures and the side-effects as well as increased risk of morbidity from heart disease due to calcium deposits in your arteries make them in the opinion of the experts do more harm than good. You'll eventually see osteoporosis organisations and others update their advice, personally I think it's fucking stupid they're still relying on what was essentially the "wisdom of contemporary opinion" by clinicians. They're resistant to change probably for the reason that their argument would be their healthcare clients need long-term stable advice and the risks and side-effects are not severe enough to warrant a 180. Whatever merit that argument may have had 20 years ago, the evidence has well and truly moved on and it's stuff like this where they continue advocating things that I would say have been long since disproved in science that makes people scared and sceptical of the healthcare system, and the safety of healthcare products. I'm all for letting people choose their own options, but at least be honest and informative about how likely it is that calcium supplementation will actually prevent a fracture (.0001%) and the side effects (up to 30% increase in heart disease, plus also painful kidney stones). Hmm, seems like a no-brainer to me.

Hell like I said, don't take my word for it - talk to your doctor and ask them if studies in Cochrane are trusted evidence to be followed clinically.

In the future they might develop a better supplement, one that's more bio-available. Or to put it another way, for dietary calcium to be *used* by the body other conditions have to be true, it's perfectly feasible they can make calcium bio-available and effective in a supplement. It's also possible that such an endeavour is impossible and that fortification of bread or cereal will be the only safe way to deliver extra calcium in the diet. Here I'm just defining "safe" by the threshold at which the effect of the supplementation is neutral.

My god you make a lot of unfounded assertions.

Still waiting for documentation on:"Finding uncontaminated supplements, particularly multi-vitamins, is incredibly difficult"

Now I'd like documentation on: "There's a high risk of iron toxicity with supplementation".  And children getting toxic is the parents fault, not the supplements.

And you need to update your research, the jury is still out on the Ca/heart disease connection, one abstract: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31625814

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a supplement advocate even though I take some myself (MVI/D3/Omega3-6-9).
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#18

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
I take an odd assortment of things.  I'm fairly thin and need to keep my bones strong so I take calcium, magnesium and zinc together since the magnesium and zinc help the calcium absorb better.  I usually take it at lunch with food.   I do some weight bearing exercises too. 

About every other day I take a multi-vitamin at dinner time.  Sometimes I forget and do it every three days.

I take several other things but I've made sure there's some sort of science based evidence behind the claims.  

Every day I take Ashwagandah, an herb plant which lowers stress levels of cortosol.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6438434/  .......  and this study too .....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31517876


Rhodiola is another herb that lowers stress levels and has other properties which are helpful.  It contains salidrosides.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6345333/

Boswellia extract is another thing I take because I exercise a lot and ballet plies probably puts stress on my knees.   Boswellia, which was known as frakincense back in the day, has been in several studies.  There's an interesting x-ray of a knee in this study. 
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full...2/ptr.6338

Boswellia is a gum resin from a tree that has shown to have anti inflammatory activity.  It contains a 5-Lox inhibitor.  
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14518558

Lowering my cortosol levels has helped me during this stressful time. I also do some mindful meditation and listen to calming music just before I go to bed.   Being in a panic isn't going to help anything.
                                                         T4618
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#19

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 03:41 PM)brewerb Wrote: My god you make a lot of unfounded assertions.

You do know I'm qualified in health and nutrition, right?


Quote:Still waiting for documentation on:"Finding uncontaminated supplements, particularly multi-vitamins, is incredibly difficult"

You're not going to find that in the literature.

Quote:Now I'd like documentation on: "There's a high risk of iron toxicity with supplementation".  And children getting toxic is the parents fault, not the supplements.

I deliberately did not blame parents. Pharmacists, and indeed supplement manufacturers could better inform their clients about the risks to children.

Quote:And you need to update your research, the jury is still out on the Ca/heart disease connection, one abstract: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31625814

Well by that same logic the "jury is out" on the effectiveness of calcium supplements preventing bone fractures.

Also I'm not sure you read your own link, it literally says this in the abstract: "Conclusions: We concluded that calcium intake from dietary sources do not adequately increase the risk of CVD including CHD and stroke, while calcium supplements might raise CHD risk, especially MI."
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#20

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 03:57 PM)Aractus Wrote:
(03-22-2020, 03:41 PM)brewerb Wrote: My god you make a lot of unfounded assertions.

You do know I'm qualified in health and nutrition, right?


Quote:Still waiting for documentation on:"Finding uncontaminated supplements, particularly multi-vitamins, is incredibly difficult"

You're not going to find that in the literature.

Quote:Now I'd like documentation on: "There's a high risk of iron toxicity with supplementation".  And children getting toxic is the parents fault, not the supplements.

I deliberately did not blame parents. Pharmacists, and indeed supplement manufacturers could better inform their clients about the risks to children.

Quote:And you need to update your research, the jury is still out on the Ca/heart disease connection, one abstract: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31625814

Well by that same logic the "jury is out" on the effectiveness of calcium supplements preventing bone fractures.

Also I'm not sure you read your own link, it literally says this in the abstract: "Conclusions: We concluded that calcium intake from dietary sources do not adequately increase the risk of CVD including CHD and stroke, while calcium supplements might raise CHD risk, especially MI."

(03-22-2020, 03:57 PM)Aractus Wrote: You do know I'm qualified in health and nutrition, right?
  You're also a pompous bore and have the communication skills of a slug.
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#21

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 03:41 PM)brewerb Wrote: And you need to update your research, the jury is still out on the Ca/heart disease connection, one abstract: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31625814


I'll read the full paper tomorrow and get back to you. But for now let me quote the full conclusion:

"In summary, DCIs adequately do not increase the risk of CVD, including CHD, and stroke. Our results provide support for public health recommendations on encouraging residents to take calcium from dietary food. Extra CSs may bring potential CHD risk, especially MI. Thus, intake recommendations for calcium should consider individual characteristics and should focus on people with low intake levels of calcium, rather than increasing the intake of those with adequate amounts of calcium. The intake dosage of CS should be less than 1000 mg/d, and combining vitamin D supplementation may avoid the harmful effects of CS alone."

They are NOT advocating indiscriminate calcium supplement taking and are advising against it in that conclusion.
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#22

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 02:37 PM)Aractus Wrote:
(03-22-2020, 02:15 PM)Gawdzilla Sama Wrote: I am not getting my nutrition from my food, that's why I'm inquiring. Thanks for the good information so far.

Thanks for sharing. Where are you located? Here's your first point of advice (whatever locality applies):

https://www.choosemyplate.gov/
https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/guidelin...thy-eating

Etc. Probably more fresh vegetables, and fruit, and cutting down on discretionary foods (and yes ALL processed meats are "discretionary" and not actually meat by those guidelines). The more you cut down on discretionary foods, the more they have to be replaced with something of better nutritional value.

You are nuts. The thread is about what to do when Veggies and fruit are NOT available, you say : Eat veggies and fruit.

That said, liver is more nutrient dense than other foods. Beef is chuck full of vitamins. Carbs are not the only source of vitamins, minerals, trace elements and fuel. A lot of them, and actually most of them, can be gotten from animal based foods.


[Image: meat-nutrients.png]
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#23

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 03:57 PM)Aractus Wrote:
(03-22-2020, 03:41 PM)brewerb Wrote: My god you make a lot of unfounded assertions.

You do know I'm qualified in health and nutrition, right?


Quote:Still waiting for documentation on:"Finding uncontaminated supplements, particularly multi-vitamins, is incredibly difficult"

You're not going to find that in the literature.

Quote:Now I'd like documentation on: "There's a high risk of iron toxicity with supplementation".  And children getting toxic is the parents fault, not the supplements.

I deliberately did not blame parents. Pharmacists, and indeed supplement manufacturers could better inform their clients about the risks to children.

Quote:And you need to update your research, the jury is still out on the Ca/heart disease connection, one abstract: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31625814

Well by that same logic the "jury is out" on the effectiveness of calcium supplements preventing bone fractures.

Also I'm not sure you read your own link, it literally says this in the abstract: "Conclusions: We concluded that calcium intake from dietary sources do not adequately increase the risk of CVD including CHD and stroke, while calcium supplements might raise CHD risk, especially MI."

And you should know my qualification, we discussed it in your questionable vaccine posts over at AF.

If I'm not going to find it in the literature then it's simply an assertion.

I notice that you didn't underline "might".
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#24

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
(03-22-2020, 04:09 PM)Aractus Wrote:
(03-22-2020, 03:41 PM)brewerb Wrote: And you need to update your research, the jury is still out on the Ca/heart disease connection, one abstract: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31625814


I'll read the full paper tomorrow and get back to you. But for now let me quote the full conclusion:

"In summary, DCIs adequately do not increase the risk of CVD, including CHD, and stroke. Our results provide support for public health recommendations on encouraging residents to take calcium from dietary food. Extra CSs may bring potential CHD risk, especially MI. Thus, intake recommendations for calcium should consider individual characteristics and should focus on people with low intake levels of calcium, rather than increasing the intake of those with adequate amounts of calcium. The intake dosage of CS should be less than 1000 mg/d, and combining vitamin D supplementation may avoid the harmful effects of CS alone."

They are NOT advocating indiscriminate calcium supplement taking and are advising against it in that conclusion.

Neither am I.
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#25

Current wonky diets, best supplements?
I'm a breatharian now.

P.S. I just said that to watch Aractus' head spin off Wink Just kidding Aractus Smile
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