[Serious] Singing the N-word

[Antonio]

N-word good  nigger bad regardless of context .

I don't agree. Words aren't magical. They possess no power of their own, outside of context. In the context of discussing racism in America, I think just saying or typing "nigger" should not be offensive, insofar as the word isn't actually being used as a slur. And that too is why blacks in America use it referring to each other without offense, because they're not actually exerting some imagined racial superiority.

I don't like soft language. I think we can only be offended when we allow ourselves to be offended, but I think that some folk have more reason to take offense than others. As a white guy, "cracker" doesn't offend me, but (again, context) that's because white Americans haven't suffered oppression due to skin-color with that word as a concomitant to said oppression. The history gives context to both usage and users of the words we speak.

the context of my post was satire

[Thumpalumpacus]

N-word good  nigger bad regardless of context .

I don't agree. Words aren't magical. They possess no power of their own, outside of context. In the context of discussing racism in America, I think just saying or typing "nigger" should not be offensive, insofar as the word isn't actually being used as a slur. And that too is why blacks in America use it referring to each other without offense, because they're not actually exerting some imagined racial superiority.

I don't like soft language. I think we can only be offended when we allow ourselves to be offended, but I think that some folk have more reason to take offense than others. As a white guy, "cracker" doesn't offend me, but (again, context) that's because white Americans haven't suffered oppression due to skin-color with that word as a concomitant to said oppression. The history gives context to both usage and users of the words we speak.

the context of my post was satire

Sorry for misunderstanding you, then.

[Antonio]

I don't agree. Words aren't magical. They possess no power of their own, outside of context. In the context of discussing racism in America, I think just saying or typing "nigger" should not be offensive, insofar as the word isn't actually being used as a slur. And that too is why blacks in America use it referring to each other without offense, because they're not actually exerting some imagined racial superiority.

I don't like soft language. I think we can only be offended when we allow ourselves to be offended, but I think that some folk have more reason to take offense than others. As a white guy, "cracker" doesn't offend me, but (again, context) that's because white Americans haven't suffered oppression due to skin-color with that word as a concomitant to said oppression. The history gives context to both usage and users of the words we speak.

the context of my post was satire

Sorry for misunderstanding you, then.

No problem . And I agree with everything you said about soft language

[TooHuman]

Sometimes I wonder if there are any white Americans that feel uncomfortable saying the words vinegar or Arnold Schwarzenegger when they’re around black people. And I’m always wondering if I’m the only one that thinks it’s ridiculous that so many people have been programmed to be offended by the word nigger, but not offended by the word black. I hate the fact that we live in world where people are programmed to be offended by individual words and symbols. It’s a foolish way of thinking, and I have contempt for most people that are offended by the n word. I can understand if you’re an American that is old enough to have lived through the Jim crow south, but if you’re anyone else, then you’re just giving power to people that may or may not be racist.

There are so many people in the USA that are obsessed with forbidden words. I think learning new languages is a good solution to the problem, because forbidden words tend to get lost in translation. A black polyglot is less likely to be offended by forbidden words, and especially the n word if they speak Mandarin or Korean.

Human language is a flawed subjective thing that’s in dire need of improvement. From race, to gender, and political and economic ideologies. We spend so much time being offended and arguing about the definition of words.

[Inkubus]

...There are so many people in the USA that are obsessed with forbidden words. I think learning new languages is a good solution to the problem, because forbidden words tend to get lost in translation. A black polyglot is less likely to be offended by forbidden words, and especially the n word if they speak Mandarin or Korean.

This new learning amazes me, do go on.

[Vera]

Human language is a flawed subjective thing that’s in dire need of improvement.

And how do you propose to do this? I'm all ears to hear more about this ground-breaking idea of creating a new speak, I mean, language

[TooHuman]

This new learning amazes me, do go on.

The comedian Russel Peters has a stand-up routine where he talks about the n word and his experiences in China. The videos are on Youtube. The stand-up reminded me of a time when I was in a store owned by a Chinese person speaking Mandarin. I was waiting in line with a black person, when I heard the store owner say something to another Chinese person in the store. So the black person proceeds to say something like “what did you call me?” in a loud angry voice. No punches were thrown, but situation could have easily escalated into something serious over a word that means something else in another language.

[TooHuman]

And how do you propose to do this? I'm all ears to hear more about this ground-breaking idea of creating a new speak, I mean, language

Linguists and scientists could try to modify our languages by making the words that we use more objective, and less open to interpretation. And then there’s the numerous ways that AI and BCI technology could be used in the future.

[Vera]

Some random comedian and the freaking School of Life? *That's* what's supposed to convince us? Maybe, if we were in high school.

I'm an actual linguist (nor do I have time for pop-psych mumbo-jumbo) and this is not how language works at all. This is not how people work either, for that matter.

[Inkubus]

And how do you propose to do this? I'm all ears to hear more about this ground-breaking idea of creating a new speak, I mean, language

Linguists and scientists could try to modify our languages by making the words that we use more objective, and less open to interpretation. And then there’s the numerous ways that AI and BCI technology could be used in the future.

The School of Life, founded by a number of writers and thinkers, including: philosopher Alain de Botton...
And that's enough School of Life videos for me.

[TooHuman]

I'm an actual linguist (nor do I have time for pop-psych mumbo-jumbo) and this is not how language works at all. This is not how people work either, for that matter.

I’m not trying to prove or convince. I wasn’t going to post a link to a scientific paper or a lecture about the future of natural language processing. The source of the video is irrelevant, because it’s a short and accurate description of what I think of the world, and what I would like to see in the future. I’m interested in a potential collaboration between linguists, biologists, and computer scientists to create something that’s new and improved. I like the idea of a world where more information is perceived as objectively true or false. I should also mention that I don’t think people will be using BCI tech to communicate any time soon, because real progress is measured in decades and centuries.

[mordant]

Even if some new and improved language could be created, it would for a variety of reasons be well-nigh impossible for it to be widely adopted. Esperanto provides a good object lesson there. Would the French give up their language? The Germans? It's part of their identity.

But even if this were pulled off, the tendency of people to routinely redefine and misdefine and misuse words in the service of their pet ideas would fairly quickly undermine such a solution.

Even here among all us empiricists we recently had a stem-winding thread arguing about the correct definition of atheism, after all.

[jerry mcmasters]

Sometimes I wonder if there are any white Americans that feel uncomfortable saying the words vinegar or Arnold Schwarzenegger when they’re around black people. And I’m always wondering if I’m the only one that thinks it’s ridiculous that so many people have been programmed to be offended by the word nigger, but not offended by the word black. I hate the fact that we live in world where people are programmed to be offended by individual words and symbols. It’s a foolish way of thinking, and I have contempt for most people that are offended by the n word. I can understand if you’re an American that is old enough to have lived through the Jim crow south, but if you’re anyone else, then you’re just giving power to people that may or may not be racist.

There are so many people in the USA that are obsessed with forbidden words. I think learning new languages is a good solution to the problem, because forbidden words tend to get lost in translation. A black polyglot is less likely to be offended by forbidden words, and especially the n word if they speak Mandarin or Korean.

Human language is a flawed subjective thing that’s in dire need of improvement. From race, to gender, and political and economic ideologies. We spend so much time being offended and arguing about the definition of words.

It never occurred to me to be uncomfortable saying vinegar or Schwarzenegger when around black people! 

How do you not distinguish between the n word and "black"?  Black (I think) was an empowerment word by blacks to replace Negro, as in hey if you honkies are white, guess what, we're black.  That's a bit different from a word that literally was shouted in hatred at blacks being whipped, lynched, raped, worked to death, etc.  It's a nasty word that should be thrown in the dustbin.  I usually don't doubt a new guys sincerity until several posts, but dude, come on.

[Thumpalumpacus]

No matter the language invented or modified, humans will find a way to denigrate outgroups with words.

[TooHuman]

It never occurred to me to be uncomfortable saying vinegar or Schwarzenegger when around black people!

Black (Schwarz) n word is what I think about whenever I hear or see the name.

How do you not distinguish between the n word and "black"?  Black (I think) was an empowerment word by blacks to replace Negro, as in hey if you honkies are white, guess what, we're black.  That's a bit different from a word that literally was shouted in hatred at blacks being whipped, lynched, raped, worked to death, etc.  It's a nasty word that should be thrown in the dustbin.  I usually don't doubt a new guys sincerity until several posts, but dude, come on.

Negro = Black

There’s a relatively small percentage of Americans or Sub- Saharan Africans with a level of hyperpigmentation or dark brown skin that may look black even when they’re not in low lighting. But we still use the words black or white to describe billions of people. It’s obviously about something more than skin color.

Black was the original insult. The black death, dark souls, the prince of darkness. Do you think words like blackness or darkness would be associated with evil if we evolved with a tapetum lucidum, and our species didn’t have a history of being hunted by predators in the darkness?

A group of people were called black in different languages for hundreds of years, and the word eventually became a part of their identity. And it’s such a huge part of their identity that they use the n word in their songs or when they speak to each other. But the word is forbidden if you’re not a part of tribe. I guess I’m just a fool for not being able to understand why so many people can be comfortable with black, and be so offended by a word that sounds like slang for negro.

[jerry mcmasters]

It never occurred to me to be uncomfortable saying vinegar or Schwarzenegger when around black people!

Black (Schwarz) n word is what I think about whenever I hear or see the name.

How do you not distinguish between the n word and "black"?  Black (I think) was an empowerment word by blacks to replace Negro, as in hey if you honkies are white, guess what, we're black.  That's a bit different from a word that literally was shouted in hatred at blacks being whipped, lynched, raped, worked to death, etc.  It's a nasty word that should be thrown in the dustbin.  I usually don't doubt a new guys sincerity until several posts, but dude, come on.

Negro = Black

There’s a relatively small percentage of Americans or Sub- Saharan Africans with a level of hyperpigmentation or dark brown skin that may look black even when they’re not in low lighting. But we still use the words black or white to describe billions of people. It’s obviously about something more than skin color.

Black was the original insult. The black death, dark souls, the prince of darkness. Do you think words like blackness or darkness would be associated with evil if we evolved with a tapetum lucidum, and our species didn’t have a history of being hunted by predators in the darkness?

A group of people were called black in different languages for hundreds of years, and the word eventually became a part of their identity. And it’s such a huge part of their identity that they use the n word in their songs or when they speak to each other. But the word is forbidden if you’re not a part of tribe. I guess I’m just a fool for not being able to understand why so many people can be comfortable with black, and be so offended by a word that sounds like slang for negro.

I don't know if you are a fool but your opinion on this seems very foolish.  Of course in a larger context black/darkness has always been a literary negative and white/light/"enlightenment" has always been seen as good, uplifting, etc, but the context I think we are discussing is much more narrow, that of American people of African descent (I understand the context of your OP to be American) labeling themselves and being labeled by whites.  In that context, if you don't understand why American blacks take offense to being called the n word...!!!  Ii don't know how to explain it without sounding condescending.

[Vera]

I’m not trying to prove or convince. I wasn’t going to post a link to a scientific paper or a lecture about the future of natural language processing. The source of the video is irrelevant, because it’s a short and accurate description of what I think of the world, and what I would like to see in the future. I’m interested in a potential collaboration between linguists, biologists, and computer scientists to create something that’s new and improved. I like the idea of a world where more information is perceived as objectively true or false. I should also mention that I don’t think people will be using BCI tech to communicate any time soon, because real progress is measured in decades and centuries.

So, much like what the school of life (and transhumanism) is peddling, a lot of scientifically sounding mumbo jumbo?

Got it.

Oh, and instead of stringing along a whole lot of words that say very little, how about you read up a bit on the word NIGGER which this thread is about. Not negro, not black. Nigger. And then go on and tell those niggers they shouldn't be so thin-skinned.

And use your own "arguments", not video clips of comedians and peddlers of pop-philosophy.

[SYZ]

There are so many people in the USA that are obsessed with forbidden words.

Citation please.   Which Americans, how many of them, and what words?

I think learning new languages is a good solution to the problem, because forbidden words tend to get lost in translation.

Nope.  Rather, we need to learn how to better use the massive English vocabulary
we already have, and use it correctly grammatically, and appropriately.  And the
meaning and intent of the word "nigger" is definitely not "lost in translation". The
entire English-speaking global population of 1.35 billion people know exactly what
its use is intended to convey.    Maybe you don't?

A black polyglot is less likely to be offended by forbidden words, and especially the
n word if they speak Mandarin or Korean.

Again, citation please.

Human language is a flawed subjective thing that’s in dire need of improvement. From race, to gender, and political and economic ideologies. We spend so much time being offended and arguing about the definition of words.

Only the ill-educated, the conspiracist, the willfully ignorant, the racist, the sexist,
the homophobe, the bleeding-heart, or the god-botherer argue about semantics.

—Oh, but wait... that's half the fucking population LOL.    (Maybe not.)

[Thumpalumpacus]

Black was the original insult. The black death, dark souls, the prince of darkness. Do you think words like blackness or darkness would be associated with evil if we evolved with a tapetum lucidum, and our species didn’t have a history of being hunted by predators in the darkness?

I'm a member of an interracial family. The black members of my family take no issue with being called black even though my niece and nephew are biracial unless the context makes it clear (like if someone called them "goddamned blacks"). They of course don't speak for anyone but themselves.

There's no such thing as a word with an inherent meaning. All denotations and connotations of words rely upon context to provide meaning. Those meanings, additionally, change over time. The idea that words have inherent power to do anything is akin to magical thinking, imbuing whatever word in question a power it doesn't possess.

[TooHuman]

I'm a member of an interracial family. The black members of my family take no issue with being called black even though my niece and nephew are biracial unless the context makes it clear (like if someone called them "goddamned blacks"). They of course don't speak for anyone but themselves.

I’m a visible minority in my country, and my family is a mix of many social constructs (races, religions, nationalities). As a child, I had the unique perspective of having people from multiple groups trying to indoctrinate me by telling me what I should love and fear, and what is and isn’t offensive. I eventually made a choice to reject most of the social programming.  

I don’t look white, so some of my black family members in the USA are baffled by my inability to be offended by the n word. One of the few exceptions is a cousin that’s in an interracial marriage. He had an important conversation about the n word with his children a few years ago. One child looks black or mixed race, and the other white with tanned skin. He had to let one of them know that they probably shouldn’t say nigger around any black people outside of the family. The conversation made think about what it means to be black in America. I thought about people like Rachel Dolezal or Tom Morello, (a person that identifies as black despite the fact that many people just see him as Italian).

The ridiculous social constructs, people being imprisoned by words, it’s something that I will always reject.

There's no such thing as a word with an inherent meaning. All denotations and connotations of words rely upon context to provide meaning. Those meanings, additionally, change over time. The idea that words have inherent power to do anything is akin to magical thinking, imbuing whatever word in question a power it doesn't possess.

Agreed, context should always matter, but sometimes it doesn’t. Sometime back in 2012 or 2013 Paris Hilton made a social media comment saying that she’s listening to Niggas in Paris. People got upset, despite the fact that it’s the name of the fucking song. There are many black Americans that don’t care about context. The rapper / actor Ice Cube thought it was important to let Bill Maher and the world know that “that’s our word”. Anyone outside of the tribe is not allowed to use the word. If you’re a white person living in Canada or the USA you can be canceled, fired, or assaulted for using the word in an academic setting, or in a joke that isn't hateful.

[Antonio]

As has been mentioned it's context

N-word = nigger

[Antonio]

K-word =kike
S-word =spic
W-word =wap
L-word =limey

I'm too lazy to look up any more

[Phaedrus]

It's really as simple as this:

If the musician didn't want the listener to sing along with the song, then the word shouldn't have been included.

[Inkubus]

[quote="Thumpalumpacus" pid='333457' dateline='1640630420']

I'm a member of an interracial family. The black members of my family take no issue with being called black even though my niece and nephew are biracial unless the context makes it clear (like if someone called them "goddamned blacks"). They of course don't speak for anyone but themselves.

I’m a visible minority in my country, and my family is a mix of many social constructs (races, religions, nationalities). As a child, I had the unique perspective of having people from multiple groups trying to indoctrinate me by telling me what I should love and fear, and what is and isn’t offensive. I eventually made a choice to reject most of the social programming.  

I don’t look white, so some of my black family members in the USA are baffled by my inability to be offended by the n word...

Dude where do you sit on the Darkins scale?

The Robert Darkins’ Colour Scale.

1. Strong whitey: I know darkies don't exist.

2. De-facto whitey: Cannot know for certain cos me mam once went out with a Spanish waiter years ago.

3. Weak whitey: Need to get the eyes seeing to.

4. Pure agwhitist: But prepared to listen to Bob Marley if it helps with a drawers on the floor situation.

5. Thin whitey: I do not know colour exists but I’m inclined to be skeptical and spout shite on the interwebz. 

6. I cannot know for certain: But I think you've here before with this bollocks.

7. I am 100% sure my name is Sidney Poitier.

7a. I'm equally sure this thread will develop into something interesting.

[Paleophyte]

Every word that we utter needs to be evaluated in context, and that context includes both the speaker and the audience. When the Archbishop of Canterbury speaks of "true believers" you know that he's talking about one thing, whereas if Richard Dawkins uses that term you know that a rather different sentiment is being expressed.

This is even more true of the word "nigger". White people have a long and embarrassing history of using it as a grave insult and an invitation to a lynching. Black people have taken ownership of it and use it as an honorific and greeting. The word has been endowed with inescapable racial connotations such that a pasty white guy who wants to avoid looking like a dumb racists simply does not utter it. I would feel extremely uncomfortable using it even if a black person asked me to.