So... I Prayed Recently

[vulcanlogician]

About a month ago, I actually prayed to God. The last time I did such a thing was when my sister came up missing and we were afraid she was kidnapped or something. That was well over a decade ago.

This time my mother almost died in the hospital. She came dangerously close. The doctors were doing all they could, and nothing seemed to be working. It was clear that nobody had control over the situation. If my mother was going to die, she was going to die, nobody could have done anything to stop it.

Mom made it through okay (for anyone curious) but I've been reflecting on the prayer thing. It's pretty obvious that her recovery was dependant upon natural circumstances now. It was even obvious to me when I prayed.

So, if that was so obvious, why did I pray? I desperately needed something to latch my hopes onto. That's why. If the doctors had came to me and said, "We're going to try this new surgery," I would have latched my hopes onto that. But as it was, they said they couldn't do anything further for her... that we just had to wait and see... and I had nothing to latch my hopes onto.

If a snake oil salesman would have tried to sell me a miracle cure in that waiting room, I would have bought it in an instant. But there was just no snake oil salesman lucky enough to be there.

All I had was the (very) remote hope that a divine being might be in control of the situation. And that also (as I had been told in my youth) I could talk to this divine being and ask him for things. And if he felt like it, he might give me something that I asked for. As stupid as all that sounded, even at the time, I said "What have I got to lose?" and prayed that my mother would recover.

Well, she's better now. Praise the Lord, right? Well, no. But I learned something through all that. To me, the existence of a divine being who controls the fate of people's medical recovery is absurd. A being who answers prayers is absurd. But I still prayed anyway. Why?

I'm as skeptical as they come. But I don't think any amount of skepticism or critical thinking could have kept me from praying that day. Really, only one thing could have kept me from praying: less desperation.

I think we atheists should keep things like this in mind when we wonder why religion is so influential in the world. Sure, critical thinking can be a rare commodity... but that's not the only moving part here. The world is a desperate place. People live in poverty. They suffer. They need something upon which they can attach their frustrated hopes. And religion steps right up and gives them what they need. Even critical thinkers and skeptics will step right up and take what religion offers when the situation is grave enough.

I'm going somewhere with this: religion is here to stay until we make the world a better place for everyone. I know a lot of us think that a less religious world would become one with less strife. And I agree. But how many of us think that a world with less strife would become a less religious one? I think that making the world a better place for everyone is as vital to diminishing religion's influence as secular activism in general. Otherwise, we're just lobbing heads off of a hydra.

Any thought on this?

Show ContentSpoiler:

Superstition,  then,  is  engendered,  preserved,  and  fostered by fear... only while under the dominion of fear do men fall prey to superstition; that all the portents ever invested with the reverence of misguided religion are mere phantoms of dejected and fearful minds; and lastly, that prophets have most power among the people, and are most formidable to rulers, precisely at those times when the state is in most peril.

http://www.yesselman.com/ttpelws1.htm

[Unsapien]

Some type of spiritualism may continue for many more millennia but I don't think organized religion has much life left in it, unless they plan to do it from the barrel of a gun.


I talk to my dead father and mother "asking" advice sometimes, I know there's nobody listening, but it helps to order my thoughts. I think I knew them well enough to predict what they'd say. It comforts me.


If we could be completely rational we'd be robots.

[GenesisNemesis]

I personally think absolutism is more of a root cause of human suffering than religion. Religion is merely a byproduct of absolutism.

[Dom]

About a month ago, I actually prayed to God. The last time I did such a thing was when my sister came up missing and we were afraid she was kidnapped or something. That was well over a decade ago.

This time my mother almost died in the hospital. She came dangerously close. The doctors were doing all they could, and nothing seemed to be working. It was clear that nobody had control over the situation. If my mother was going to die, she was going to die, nobody could have done anything to stop it.

Mom made it through okay (for anyone curious) but I've been reflecting on the prayer thing. It's pretty obvious that her recovery was dependant upon natural circumstances now. It was even obvious to me when I prayed.

So, if that was so obvious, why did I pray? I desperately needed something to latch my hopes onto. That's why. If the doctors had came to me and said, "We're going to try this new surgery," I would have latched my hopes onto that. But as it was, they said they couldn't do anything further for her... that we just had to wait and see... and I had nothing to latch my hopes onto.

If a snake oil salesman would have tried to sell me a miracle cure in that waiting room, I would have bought it in an instant. But there was just no snake oil salesman lucky enough to be there.

All I had was the (very) remote hope that a divine being might be in control of the situation. And that also (as I had been told in my youth) I could talk to this divine being and ask him for things. And if he felt like it, he might give me something that I asked for. As stupid as all that sounded, even at the time, I said "What have I got to lose?" and prayed that my mother would recover.

Well, she's better now. Praise the Lord, right? Well, no. But I learned something through all that. To me, the existence of a divine being who controls the fate of people's medical recovery is absurd. A being who answers prayers is absurd. But I still prayed anyway. Why?

I'm as skeptical as they come. But I don't think any amount of skepticism or critical thinking could have kept me from praying that day. Really, only one thing could have kept me from praying: less desperation.

I think we atheists should keep things like this in mind when we wonder why religion is so influential in the world. Sure, critical thinking can be a rare commodity... but that's not the only moving part here. The world is a desperate place. People live in poverty. They suffer. They need something upon which they can attach their frustrated hopes. And religion steps right up and gives them what they need. Even critical thinkers and skeptics will step right up and take what religion offers when the situation is grave enough.

I'm going somewhere with this: religion is here to stay until we make the world a better place for everyone. I know a lot of us think that a less religious world would become one with less strife. And I agree. But how many of us think that a world with less strife would become a less religious one? I think that making the world a better place for everyone is as vital to diminishing religion's influence as secular activism in general. Otherwise, we're just lobbing heads off of a hydra.

Any thought on this?

Show ContentSpoiler:

Superstition,  then,  is  engendered,  preserved,  and  fostered by fear... only while under the dominion of fear do men fall prey to superstition; that all the portents ever invested with the reverence of misguided religion are mere phantoms of dejected and fearful minds; and lastly, that prophets have most power among the people, and are most formidable to rulers, precisely at those times when the state is in most peril.

http://www.yesselman.com/ttpelws1.htm

Also, prayer is one of the things that release serotonin.

Serotonin ( ) or 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) is a monoamine neurotransmitter. It has a popular image as a contributor to feelings of well-being and happiness, though its actual biological function is complex and multifaceted, modulating cognition, reward, learning, memory, and numerous physiological processes.

[Kernel Sohcahtoa]

I'm as skeptical as they come. But I don't think any amount of skepticism or critical thinking could have kept me from praying that day. Really, only one thing could have kept me from praying: less desperation.

I think we atheists should keep things like this in mind when we wonder why religion is so influential in the world. Sure, critical thinking can be a rare commodity... but that's not the only moving part here. The world is a desperate place. People live in poverty. They suffer. They need something upon which they can attach their frustrated hopes. And religion steps right up and gives them what they need. Even critical thinkers and skeptics will step right up and take what religion offers when the situation is grave enough.

I'm sorry that you had to go through that experience, Vulcan.  It's great to know that the doctors who were helping your mother were able to save her life.  

I remember one of my professors telling us a particular saying of Augustine's, which to the best of my recollection, went as follows: do not put too much stock in humanity, because you will only be let down. 

For individuals who have had many bad experiences with other people or who have experienced a lot of the negative aspects of humanity (e.g. suffering, cruelty, hatred, violence, unethical conduct etc.), I can understand their decision to put their faith in the existence of another reality or life-form that is free from these failings and how such a belief provides meaning, hope, and strength.

[vulcanlogician]

@Kernel Sohcahtoa

Yo, KS! Good to see ya, man!

[Jenny]

I'm so glad your mom's okay *hugs*

I think once you've been groomed for a behavior, it can be hard for our brains to let that go. Brainwashing runs deep--even when we become skeptics/atheists/what have you. I read a book written by a cult expert and he talked about deprogramming a young lady who was fearful to the point of shaking of ever having a child. This was even years after she was deprogrammed and living a non-religious life. Why was she fearful of having a child? Because the religious group she belonged to told her that if she ever went against god her child would be born with all kinds of problems. The cult expert showed her how conditioning works and why she reverted to that mindset of the fear of having a child years later.

Anyway, I can definitely see that due to past conditioning, your go to in a situation like the one you describe could lead to the desire to pray.

[Dancefortwo]

To me praying in a situation like this is another way of hoping things turn out ok.

[Mark]

I can relate.  When my wife's appendix burst and they went in to operate on her.  I really, really, really wanted a positive outcome.  I don't think I prayed to anything but my need to do something to push the result in a positive direction was a mixture of desperation, anger and insistence.  I doubt if that is how prayer is done but I felt more like kicking some holy ass than in kissing it.  Somehow she survived anyway.  I'm glad your mother is doing alright too.

[brunumb]

Any thought on this?

Prayer aside, it's good to hear that your mother recovered.  

Your story reminded me of a non-alcoholic drink that appeared here decades ago called Claytons.  It was promoted as "The drink you have when you're not having a drink".  Prayer seems a bit like that to me.  It is the thing you do when there is nothing you can do.  We often feel so helpless in situations like the one you found yourself in and we desperately want to contribute in some way even though there is nothing we can realistically do.  Prayer somehow provides a little relief from the anxiety we feel even if deep down we don't have any belief to back it up.  We feel that we are at least doing 'something'.

By the way, for some time after the ad for Claytons appeared we regularly used word to describe anything that was particularly useless or pathetic.  "What a Claytons movie".  "That burger was a real Claytons".  I have on occasion used it with theists when their responses to challenges don't really amount to much by saying "What a Claytons argument" ie. the argument you give when you don't have an argument.

[Dancefortwo]

I can relate too.  When my mother had a brain aneurysm I felt so helpless. I remember thinking "oh please god let her be ok". I don't even know if you could call it praying.  It was more like hoping and wishing when there's nothing else you can do.  After they removed  a piece of her damaged brain and put her in an induced coma I drove around (it was Christmas Eve) and went into a church (it was about the third time I'd even been IN a church)   I sat there and watched people lighting candles and realized what a bunch of shit religion is and got up and left.

[Free]

Any thought on this?

Yes, you shall be drawn and quartered.

Actually, you answered your own question as to why you prayed. You were desperate and reaching for any perceived possibility, however remote, to alleviate your pain. You felt absolutely helpless because it was out of your hands. That's all it is.

Now slap yourself across the face for being stupid.

J\k ... you'll be fine.

[Minimalist]

About a month ago, I actually prayed to God.

Everyone has a bad day now and then.  Go have a drink.

[SYZ]

Firstly mate, I'm pleased for both of you that your mum is now okay.    

When I was diagnosed with cancer by my GP (many decades ago) the thought of praying never once crossed
my mind.  My very first thought was I'd better see an oncologist ASAP.  I was a hard skeptic way back then,
and I'm even more skeptical in my senior years—having done more and seen more of life.

My opinion that prayer is a pointless distraction is reinforced by this study:

Study of the Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP) in cardiac bypass patients

I'm glad that praying for your mum's recovery gave you some solace at an undoubtedly stressful time, but I'm
also glad that in hindsight you've acknowledged its ultimate futility.

And as I'd ask of theists;  "If you experienced a sudden heart attack, would you fall to your knees in prayer, or
would you phone for an ambulance?"

[brewerb]

Glad your mom's OK. 

I have no comment on the rest. You be you.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think people will always need comfort in this world, and prayer provides that for enough people.

The only prayer that means anything to me is the Serenity Prayer. I disregard the supernatural aspect, and use it as a simple reminder to focus my energy on changing what I can while I let go of what I cannot control.

[Inkubus]

...I'm as skeptical as they come. But I don't think any amount of skepticism or critical thinking could have kept me from praying that day. Really, only one thing could have kept me from praying: less desperation...

Everything.

[Phaedrus]

Any thought on this?

So you're a silly deathbed converter?

[Losty]

I’m glad your mom is ok. I too have prayed in desperate situations. I don’t think it does anything. I’ve known when I’ve done it that it wasn’t going to do anything. But when there’s nothing you can do and you feel you must do something, it helps to have that something to fall back on. I think. It makes you feel batter even though it makes no sense to make you feel better.

[Alan V]

About a month ago, I actually prayed to God. The last time I did such a thing was when my sister came up missing and we were afraid she was kidnapped or something. That was well over a decade ago.
...

I'm as skeptical as they come. But I don't think any amount of skepticism or critical thinking could have kept me from praying that day. Really, only one thing could have kept me from praying: less desperation.

I think we atheists should keep things like this in mind when we wonder why religion is so influential in the world. Sure, critical thinking can be a rare commodity... but that's not the only moving part here. The world is a desperate place. People live in poverty. They suffer. They need something upon which they can attach their frustrated hopes. And religion steps right up and gives them what they need. Even critical thinkers and skeptics will step right up and take what religion offers when the situation is grave enough.

I'm going somewhere with this: religion is here to stay until we make the world a better place for everyone. I know a lot of us think that a less religious world would become one with less strife. And I agree. But how many of us think that a world with less strife would become a less religious one? I think that making the world a better place for everyone is as vital to diminishing religion's influence as secular activism in general. Otherwise, we're just lobbing heads off of a hydra.

Any thought on this?

Once when I was a teenager, my cousin's husband was dying from stomach cancer.  He was only in his thirties and had three small kids with her.  So my cousin's sister arranged for the family to pray for him all at the same time on a certain day.  He died anyway.

After that, I never prayed for anyone.  I changed how I conceptualized prayer.  An all-knowing, all-powerful, perfectly good God would, logically, already be doing what he could for us.  There should be no reason to ask for anything.  Instead, prayer should be about trying to remember that nothing in this world is free from problems.  Only God is above it all.

Which means we have to learn to take the bad with the good.  So for instance, my cousin's husband was handling Agent Orange in Vietnam, so stomach cancer was probably the price he paid.  Similarly, the many risks of life are just the price we pay for living.  Pluses and minuses are inescapable if you are not God.

So I didn't pray for my mother when she was struggling with bladder cancer for six or seven years in the 1990s, though I certainly did cry for her.  She died in October, 2000.  But at the end of that year, I gave all my books on mysticism and religion -- over 100 books -- to the Temple University library.  They had stopped making any useful sense. An indifferent God doesn't make sense either.

So I guess I disagree that religion is necessarily about hope.  For me when I was a theist, and I would guess for others too, it was and is about acceptance.  Only God is God -- or at least so I thought back then.

And if that is the case, then it is not just appealing to human emotions which will never be changed.  Since I don't think the world will ever be a place of less strife (pluses and minuses), we can hope that is the case instead, at least for some religious people. We don't need to believe in God to learn to accept realities for what they are.

[vulcanlogician]

Thanks all for the thoughts of concern about me and my mom. It was harrowing to go through that, no matter how you slice it. I'm glad mom made it through okay. I've experienced loss quite a number of times in my life and it is a bitter experience for me each and every time. I don't really ever handle it well. I'm quite lucky to have avoided it this time.

For those thinking my OP was an admission of some kind of error in thinking or action, please read what I have written below Phaedrus' quote.

Some of you worried that my intent was to disclose some sort of "lapse" in my atheism. I was never a hardcore believer, so there is really no thing for me to "lapse" back into. I fully doubted my family's Catholicism by the time I turned 15. In my twenties, I explored Hinduism, more for its philosophical symbolism (which is quite beautiful) than any belief that Shiva might be a real entity. That--allegorical Hinduism--is as close as I've ever come to believing in any religion. As for my "freethinker cred" being damaged... no worries about that either. That my "freethinker cred" is not attained via the sayso of anyone else is evidence that I have freethinker cred to begin with. And as I see it, my rational mind has remained intact. But I do thank you all for your concern. The kool aid can seem rather sweet and tempting in given cases, and it's good to know there are folks (my online atheist friends) that will remind me of the active ingredient.

What my goal was with the OP was was to shed some light on a reality (human doubt and suffering) that is --perhaps-- somewhat responsible for the proliferation of religion the world over. I had an unpleasant experience. One excellent thing we can all do with our unpleasant experiences is learn something about ourselves by reflecting upon them. And sometimes (if we are lucky and pay close attention) we may even learn something about human nature itself. Whether my experience genuinely paid such dividends is a matter for debate. I think it did.

Any thought on this?

So you're a silly deathbed converter?

This was the sort of idea I sought to address in the last paragraph of my OP: The phenomenon of religion is not merely reducible to "silly thinking." There are a lot of moving parts keeping religion alive, and human suffering is one of them. I am lucky enough to live in a Western nation where my mother is insured and expected to have a certain level of care. Even so, the prospect of loss had a hardened skeptic like me having a conversation with a dial tone. Imagine those in the third world, who do not expect their loved ones to have nearly as much care. Surely, those people have experienced more loss than I. Perhaps enough to keep them on their knees...

How can atheistic Westerners expect religion to go away unless human suffering around the world is addressed As for my "freethinker cred" being damaged... no worries about that. That I my freethinker cred is not attained by the sayso of those on an atheist forum (or anyone else for that matter) is evidence that I have freethinker cred to begin with.to the level we have addressed it in the West? My thesis was: IT WON'T! Religion provides something we can't provide-- hope. We can provide something better... reduced suffering, medical care, and stability in life. But the fact is, we haven't yet furnished these provisions. I'll state it more clearly: until the problem of human suffering is addressed world wide (as it has been in the West) religion is here to stay.

Call certain kinds of thinking "silly" all you want. "Silly ideas" being believed are only partially responsible for the proliferation of religion.

[mordant]

Once when I was a teenager, my cousin's husband was dying from stomach cancer.  He was only in his thirties and had three small kids with her.  So my cousin's sister arranged for the family to pray for him all at the same time on a certain day.  He died anyway.

After that, I never prayed for anyone.  I changed how I conceptualized prayer.

This is pretty much me. I cannot bring myself to pray, even in extremity of need, because non-meditative / petitioning prayer can't be done without expectations. To ask for a loved one not to suffer, or die, is to simply be disappointed and probably angered and given to a sense of injustice, when that doesn't happen. It might relieve some worry or anxiety in the short term (unless, like me, you've repeatedly experienced the repeated epic failure of prayer) but in the long term the best you can hope for is an unjustified increased confidence in prayer as a coping strategy if you have an unusual run of good luck, and the worst you can get is ... well, reality.

I've had four close family members die "out of turn" / "before their time" from accident or illness and I'm far more accepting, less bitter, and at peace with all that WITHOUT attempts at prayer. Most recently, going on 3 years ago, was the death of my son -- the first of those losses to occur fully after self-identifying as atheist. That experience, bad as it was, was far less shocking and devastating, and far less complicated to work though, than the earlier ones -- despite the primal nature of losing a child.

As I write this, there are multiple indications that things eventually won't end well with my stepson or my wife. The factors in play are almost entirely out of my control. Prayer is not, for me, remotely attractive as an aid, though. It is no longer on some mental checklist of things that are cheap and easy to try on the outside chance that they might help. I do what I can, and hope for the best, and prepare for the worst.

But to each their own.

[possibletarian]

I think we atheists should keep things like this in mind when we wonder why religion is so influential in the world. Sure, critical thinking can be a rare commodity... but that's not the only moving part here. The world is a desperate place. People live in poverty. They suffer. They need something upon which they can attach their frustrated hopes. And religion steps right up and gives them what they need. Even critical thinkers and skeptics will step right up and take what religion offers when the situation is grave enough.

*Bold Mine*

I agree, in fact I think that's one of the reasons why Christianity and Islam has been so alluring, It has a very beautific vision of the future. A hope that one day no one will escape justice, that all wrongs will be righted, we will get a new earth, the lion will lay down with the lamb while we live in peace and equality forever..etc.

It's almost like those religions a few thousands years ago were having a 'reward off'' to see who could offer the best deal, and a few won the one-upmanship race, and why not ? Religion and politics were very closely interlinked, much as they still are in many countries.  Today it's been refined further with JW's offering something a little more realistic, a revamped earth, human bodies (for most) in a peaceful world, where our children play with lions and the like in harmony.

You are right, there seems little we can do about eternal life, but in countries that have low crime, prosperity and great health care systems* dependence on god (theistic religion) seems to be decreasing. Mostly though for now anyway people will dream, and hope and continue to modify their religions to attract people.

*Relative to ones that have obviously poor ones.

[SteveII]

About a month ago, I actually prayed to God. The last time I did such a thing was when my sister came up missing and we were afraid she was kidnapped or something. That was well over a decade ago.

This time my mother almost died in the hospital. She came dangerously close. The doctors were doing all they could, and nothing seemed to be working. It was clear that nobody had control over the situation. If my mother was going to die, she was going to die, nobody could have done anything to stop it.

Mom made it through okay (for anyone curious) but I've been reflecting on the prayer thing. It's pretty obvious that her recovery was dependant upon natural circumstances now. It was even obvious to me when I prayed.

So, if that was so obvious, why did I pray? I desperately needed something to latch my hopes onto. That's why. If the doctors had came to me and said, "We're going to try this new surgery," I would have latched my hopes onto that. But as it was, they said they couldn't do anything further for her... that we just had to wait and see... and I had nothing to latch my hopes onto.

If a snake oil salesman would have tried to sell me a miracle cure in that waiting room, I would have bought it in an instant. But there was just no snake oil salesman lucky enough to be there.

All I had was the (very) remote hope that a divine being might be in control of the situation. And that also (as I had been told in my youth) I could talk to this divine being and ask him for things. And if he felt like it, he might give me something that I asked for. As stupid as all that sounded, even at the time, I said "What have I got to lose?" and prayed that my mother would recover.

Well, she's better now. Praise the Lord, right? Well, no. But I learned something through all that. To me, the existence of a divine being who controls the fate of people's medical recovery is absurd. A being who answers prayers is absurd. But I still prayed anyway. Why?

I'm as skeptical as they come. But I don't think any amount of skepticism or critical thinking could have kept me from praying that day. Really, only one thing could have kept me from praying: less desperation.

I think we atheists should keep things like this in mind when we wonder why religion is so influential in the world. Sure, critical thinking can be a rare commodity... but that's not the only moving part here. The world is a desperate place. People live in poverty. They suffer. They need something upon which they can attach their frustrated hopes. And religion steps right up and gives them what they need. Even critical thinkers and skeptics will step right up and take what religion offers when the situation is grave enough.

I'm going somewhere with this: religion is here to stay until we make the world a better place for everyone. I know a lot of us think that a less religious world would become one with less strife. And I agree. But how many of us think that a world with less strife would become a less religious one? I think that making the world a better place for everyone is as vital to diminishing religion's influence as secular activism in general. Otherwise, we're just lobbing heads off of a hydra.

Any thought on this?

I am glad your prayer was answered.

Regarding your point, is it that there is built in most people an intuition of the supernatural and the more you are forced (often through hardship--where the distractions of shiny things go away) to address the basic questions of life and really rely on your base intuitions, the more you likely you will become aware of it?

EDITED: Taking out mention of my worldview.

[jerryg]

I am glad your prayer was answered.   

Regarding your point, is it that there is built in most people an intuition of the supernatural and the more you are forced (often through hardship--where the distractions of shiny things go away) to address the basic questions of life and really rely on your base intuitions, the more you likely you will become aware of it?

I'm not making an argument--I am putting your experience in the context of my worldview. So hypothetically, IF God exists, wouldn't it make sense that he built in an intuition and that intuition would be most obvious when we are not distracted by the things that are really not important.

Sometimes your God seems like a real big Rube Goldberg fan.