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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum

Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
I get it. Killing babies should feel bad. Its programed in. But to ignore logic and reason around some terminations because we are afraid to make some tough choices isn't rational either.

If a person can't say why they are for or against killing a possible human without the words "God said so", I can't discuss the issue. If they bring up a statement of belief about god for the discussion I can't Talk to them. Of course for me, I don't focus on my atheism about the issue issue either. I state why I think there are times we should kill a possible human and other times we should not. Even if the baby has the exact same condition in both scenarios.

I just don't care what irrational people think past voting.
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/01/us/fetuse...index.html
[Image: M-Spr20-Weapons-FEATURED-1-1200x350-c-default.jpg]
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
To consider...

Noninvasive prenatal testing (NIPT) is a maternal blood test that can be performed
from 10 weeks gestation. There are no risks to the baby from this test.

Currently, it is the most accurate screening test for Down syndrome (Trisomy 21),
Edwards syndrome (Trisomy 18) and Patau syndrome (Trisomy 13).  NIPT allows
for a >99% detection rate for Trisomy 21, a 98% detection rate for Trisomy 18,
and 80% detection rate for Trisomy 13. There is a 93-95% detection rate for sex
chromosome abnormalities including Turner syndrome and Klinefelters syndrome
and >99% detection rate for feotal gender.

—Is it reasonable to expect pregnant women to have this test?    If any abnormal
   genetics are revealed, should a woman seriously consider a termination?   Or are
   pregnant women more likely to rather not know?   Is it "fair" to bring a disabled
   human being into the world, with their concomitant difficulties in leading a "normal"
   life, along with the attendant costs to society?
I'm a creationist;   I believe that man created God.
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
Which has not prevented republiKKKunt fuckheads from trying to criminalize people who seek abortions in such cases, SYZ.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli...894057002/

Quote:Arizona asks Supreme Court to allow abortion ban for genetic abnormalities to take effect


Quote:Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey, a Republican, signed legislation in April to impose criminal penalties against doctors and others who provide abortions based on genetic abnormalities – making it one of about a dozen states with so-called reason bans.


Their apparent goal is to make certain that pregnancy is as miserable and oppressive a process as they can make it.

And, as always, after the  kid is born they could give a shitcare less about it.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(04-02-2022, 04:34 PM)Minimalist Wrote: Which has not prevented republiKKKunt fuckheads from trying to criminalize people who seek abortions in such cases, SYZ.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli...894057002/

Quote:Arizona asks Supreme Court to allow abortion ban for genetic abnormalities to take effect


Quote:Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey, a Republican, signed legislation in April to impose criminal penalties against doctors and others who provide abortions based on genetic abnormalities – making it one of about a dozen states with so-called reason bans.


Their apparent goal is to make certain that pregnancy is as miserable and oppressive a process as they can make it.

And, as always, after the  kid is born they could give a shitcare less about it.

Yup. They're pro-birth not pro-life. After a kid with genetic abnormalities is born the parents are supposed to pull themselves up with their bootstraps and pay for the medical care out of their own pockets. 


But there's also another aspect of religion that us atheists need to think about.

I think the REAL reason religious nuts don't want national health care is that it leaves them out of charity loop.  Religious nuts love nothing more than finding desperate people and pulling them in their church clutches. Down-and-out folks are a great source of conversion for churches.     The religious can puff themselves up .... "See how wonderful religious people are. We're out helping down and out people. We pull them out of the gutter and give them hope.  AREN'T WE WONDERFUL!  We don't need government tax money or government programs helping people when our god can do it."    

Secular government safety net programs removes religion's main source of conversion and power.  That's one of the many reason's they don't like the government helping people.

Notice how many of the countries with a balanced combination of democracy and social programs don't have powerful religious groups?  I don't think this is an accident.  The religious need poverty and desperate people to keep themselves afloat.  It's their source of power.
                                                         T4618
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On hiatus.
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(04-02-2022, 07:08 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Yup. They're pro-birth not pro-life. After a kid with genetic abnormalities is born the parents are supposed to pull themselves up with their bootstraps and pay for the medical care out of their own pockets.

I would argue that they are pro-oppress women for having sex or to be frank pro-death as abortion being safer than childbirth isn't fact that is hard to find: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/

To be frank once again I've never met whether online or Irl person who opposed right to abortion and had any kind of morals. As far as I am concerned being pro-forced birth precludes having even tinniest shred of decency.


Quote:But there's also another aspect of religion that us atheists need to think about.

I think the REAL reason religious nuts don't want national health care is that it leaves them out of charity loop.  Religious nuts love nothing more than finding desperate people and pulling them in their church clutches. Down-and-out folks are a great source of conversion for churches.     The religious can puff themselves up .... "See how wonderful religious people are. We're out helping down and out people. We pull them out of the gutter and give them hope.  AREN'T WE WONDERFUL!  We don't need government tax money or government programs helping people when our god can do it."    

Secular government safety net programs removes religion's main source of conversion and power.  That's one of the many reason's they don't like the government helping people.

You're right I think. Though I would also add lack of morals and greed as a reason for opposition.

Quote:Notice how many of the countries with a balanced combination of democracy and social programs don't have powerful religious groups?  I don't think this is an accident.  The religious need poverty and desperate people to keep themselves afloat.  It's their source of power.

As some bearded guy said religion is opium of the masses. And what need for opium healthy and sure of gov assistance person has?
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(04-02-2022, 07:27 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 07:08 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Yup. They're pro-birth not pro-life. After a kid with genetic abnormalities is born the parents are supposed to pull themselves up with their bootstraps and pay for the medical care out of their own pockets.

I would argue that they are pro-oppress women for having sex or to be frank pro-death as abortion being safer than childbirth isn't fact that is hard to find: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/

To be frank once again I've never met whether online or Irl person who opposed right to abortion and had any kind of morals. As far as I am concerned being pro-forced birth precludes having even tinniest shred of decency.


Quote:But there's also another aspect of religion that us atheists need to think about.

I think the REAL reason religious nuts don't want national health care is that it leaves them out of charity loop.  Religious nuts love nothing more than finding desperate people and pulling them in their church clutches. Down-and-out folks are a great source of conversion for churches.     The religious can puff themselves up .... "See how wonderful religious people are. We're out helping down and out people. We pull them out of the gutter and give them hope.  AREN'T WE WONDERFUL!  We don't need government tax money or government programs helping people when our god can do it."    

Secular government safety net programs removes religion's main source of conversion and power.  That's one of the many reason's they don't like the government helping people.

You're right I think. Though I would also add lack of morals and greed as a reason for opposition.

Quote:Notice how many of the countries with a balanced combination of democracy and social programs don't have powerful religious groups?  I don't think this is an accident.  The religious need poverty and desperate people to keep themselves afloat.  It's their source of power.

As some bearded guy said religion is opium of the masses. And what need for opium healthy and sure of gov assistance person has?


(04-02-2022, 07:27 PM)Szuchow Wrote:   I would also add lack of morals and greed as a reason for opposition.

Sure.  There are many facets to the story.  I agree with you.   But I don't hear much about the down trodden as a food source for the churches.  If the govenment is taking care of people that leaves the church with a few scraps.   Suffering is such a critical part of Christianity....Jesus's suffering on the cross and whatnot.   But I think it goes further than that.  Christianity tries to convince people that they are horrible, worthless and miserable sinners and all this suffering is caused by sin entering the world and the only antedote to this problem is if you accept Jesus as your savior.  If government aleviates some of the suffering without Jesus as the middleman it puts a real kink in their Christian storyline.
                                                         T4618
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(04-02-2022, 08:10 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 07:27 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 07:08 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote: Yup. They're pro-birth not pro-life. After a kid with genetic abnormalities is born the parents are supposed to pull themselves up with their bootstraps and pay for the medical care out of their own pockets.

I would argue that they are pro-oppress women for having sex or to be frank pro-death as abortion being safer than childbirth isn't fact that is hard to find: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/

To be frank once again I've never met whether online or Irl person who opposed right to abortion and had any kind of morals. As far as I am concerned being pro-forced birth precludes having even tinniest shred of decency.


Quote:But there's also another aspect of religion that us atheists need to think about.

I think the REAL reason religious nuts don't want national health care is that it leaves them out of charity loop.  Religious nuts love nothing more than finding desperate people and pulling them in their church clutches. Down-and-out folks are a great source of conversion for churches.     The religious can puff themselves up .... "See how wonderful religious people are. We're out helping down and out people. We pull them out of the gutter and give them hope.  AREN'T WE WONDERFUL!  We don't need government tax money or government programs helping people when our god can do it."    

Secular government safety net programs removes religion's main source of conversion and power.  That's one of the many reason's they don't like the government helping people.

You're right I think. Though I would also add lack of morals and greed as a reason for opposition.

Quote:Notice how many of the countries with a balanced combination of democracy and social programs don't have powerful religious groups?  I don't think this is an accident.  The religious need poverty and desperate people to keep themselves afloat.  It's their source of power.

As some bearded guy said religion is opium of the masses. And what need for opium healthy and sure of gov assistance person has?


(04-02-2022, 07:27 PM)Szuchow Wrote:   I would also add lack of morals and greed as a reason for opposition.

Sure.  There are many facets to the story.  I agree with you.   But I don't hear much about the down trodden as a food source for the churches.  If the govenment is taking care of people that leaves the church with a few scraps.   Suffering is such a critical part of Christianity....Jesus's suffering on the cross and whatnot.   But I think it goes further than that.  Christianity tries to convince people that they are horrible, worthless and miserable sinners and all this suffering is caused by sin entering the world and the only antedote to this problem is if you accept Jesus as your savior.  If government aleviates some of the suffering without Jesus as the middleman it puts a real kink in their Christian storyline.

For me it comes to christians being fundamentally immoral. I repeat this time after time but what kind of morality person worshipping space Hitler could have? Opposition to women rights is not unexpected in people bowing before sexist deity. To be frank no moral falling is surprising when one is willing to bow before imagined fuhrer.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(04-02-2022, 08:17 PM)Szuchow Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 08:10 PM)Dancefortwo Wrote:
(04-02-2022, 07:27 PM)Szuchow Wrote: I would argue that they are pro-oppress women for having sex or to be frank pro-death as abortion being safer than childbirth isn't fact that is hard to find: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22270271/

To be frank once again I've never met whether online or Irl person who opposed right to abortion and had any kind of morals. As far as I am concerned being pro-forced birth precludes having even tinniest shred of decency.



You're right I think. Though I would also add lack of morals and greed as a reason for opposition.


As some bearded guy said religion is opium of the masses. And what need for opium healthy and sure of gov assistance person has?


(04-02-2022, 07:27 PM)Szuchow Wrote:   I would also add lack of morals and greed as a reason for opposition.

Sure.  There are many facets to the story.  I agree with you.   But I don't hear much about the down trodden as a food source for the churches.  If the govenment is taking care of people that leaves the church with a few scraps.   Suffering is such a critical part of Christianity....Jesus's suffering on the cross and whatnot.   But I think it goes further than that.  Christianity tries to convince people that they are horrible, worthless and miserable sinners and all this suffering is caused by sin entering the world and the only antedote to this problem is if you accept Jesus as your savior.  If government aleviates some of the suffering without Jesus as the middleman it puts a real kink in their Christian storyline.

For me it comes to christians being fundamentally immoral. I repeat this time after time but what kind of morality person worshipping space Hitler could have? Opposition to women rights is not unexpected in people bowing before sexist deity. To be frank no moral falling is surprising when one is willing to bow before imagined fuhrer.

I agree.  Christians are fundamentally immoral.   The entire religion pivots around controlling others through a celestial extortion plot with a side dish of Stockholm Syndrome.
                                                         T4618
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
After reading both your positions, D42, I think that both you and Szu have correctly identified different facets of the same problem.

Religion is - and always has been about power.  Fuck god.  God is meaningless  Just a prop to be trotted out when it suits their purpose.  If there was a god he would have massacred these fucks like he allegedly did in the old days.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Abortion is evil, but it is often the lesser evil.

Thanks go to George Orwell for this who said that war was evil but often the lesser evil.
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(03-06-2023, 02:09 PM)carusmm Wrote: Abortion is evil, but it is often the lesser evil.

Thanks go to George Orwell for this who said that war was evil but often the lesser evil.

I do not agree with people who view abortion as evil or morally wrong. It's a very common sentiment, but i think it doesn't make sense on an ethical framework based on human flourishment and happiness and harm avoidance.
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(03-06-2023, 06:49 PM)epronovost Wrote: ... I do not agree with people who view abortion as evil or morally wrong ...

The view that abortion is a moral crime is purely religious.  Were the anti-abortionists actually morally rational they'd put greater focus on pregnant women who smoke, drink to excess, and otherwise put their babies at risk by behavioral malfeasance.  But they're dead silent on that matter, which harms far more children than abortions.
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(03-06-2023, 02:09 PM)carusmm Wrote: Abortion is evil, but it is often the lesser evil.

What is this greater to which you refer?
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(03-06-2023, 06:57 PM)airportkid Wrote:
(03-06-2023, 06:49 PM)epronovost Wrote: ... I do not agree with people who view abortion as evil or morally wrong ...

The view that abortion is a moral crime is purely religious.  Were the anti-abortionists actually morally rational they'd put greater focus on pregnant women who smoke, drink to excess, and otherwise put their babies at risk by behavioral malfeasance.  But they're dead silent on that matter, which harms far more children than abortions.

Oh great, there you go givin' 'em ideas ...
On hiatus.
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(03-06-2023, 08:41 PM)Inkubus Wrote:
(03-06-2023, 02:09 PM)carusmm Wrote: Abortion is evil, but it is often the lesser evil.

What is this greater to which you refer?


Poverty?  Just a hunch.  I'll let him answer for himself.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
The loss of liberty is a greater evil than the loss of life. The religious speak of the freedom to worship as they wish and care for nothing other than their selfish ends.
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
Not a word, not boo.
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
I'm kind of impressed that a Catholic woman would have any opinion opposite to the one that their church teaches, especially about abortion. Go you.
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-29-2023, 04:39 PM)Kathryn E Wrote: I'm kind of impressed that a Catholic woman would have any opinion opposite to the one that their church teaches, especially about abortion.  Go you.

I'm not. What kind of catholic it makes her? Choosing what she likes and discarding the rest? If she would throw off shackles of indoctrination and left this death cult it would be admirable, as things stands it is not.
There is only one good, knowledge, and one evil, ignorance.


Socrates.
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(04-02-2022, 08:14 AM)SYZ Wrote: To consider...

Noninvasive prenatal testing (NIPT) is a maternal blood test that can be performed
from 10 weeks gestation. There are no risks to the baby from this test.

Currently, it is the most accurate screening test for Down syndrome (Trisomy 21),
Edwards syndrome (Trisomy 18) and Patau syndrome (Trisomy 13).  NIPT allows
for a >99% detection rate for Trisomy 21, a 98% detection rate for Trisomy 18,
and 80% detection rate for Trisomy 13. There is a 93-95% detection rate for sex
chromosome abnormalities including Turner syndrome and Klinefelters syndrome
and >99% detection rate for feotal gender.

—Is it reasonable to expect pregnant women to have this test?    If any abnormal
   genetics are revealed, should a woman seriously consider a termination?   Or are
   pregnant women more likely to rather not know?   Is it "fair" to bring a disabled
   human being into the world, with their concomitant difficulties in leading a "normal"
   life, along with the attendant costs to society?

There is no rational basis for a six week ban, or even a twelve week ban. Some day, a rational court will toss all these out as arbitrary and capricious.
They attempt to justify is by a "heartbeat". There is no brain at this point, and no actual heart. Cardiac tissue *twitches* but in in fact pumps nothing and is not even formed yet. It's all fakery and lies by Republican liars
Test
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(05-29-2023, 04:39 PM)Kathryn E Wrote: I'm kind of impressed that a Catholic woman would have any opinion opposite to the one that their church teaches, especially about abortion.  Go you.

She, like her church, was and to my knowledge is anti-choice. Look at her post #7, for instance, if her OP didn't tip you off.

She's not brave.
On hiatus.
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
Quote:Some day, a rational court will toss all these out as arbitrary and capricious.


If only we had such a beast.  Sadly, we have six criminal bribe-takers who waste too much of their lives in fucking churches.
Robert G. Ingersoll : “No man with a sense of humor ever founded a religion.”
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Finally opening up about abortion on this forum
(05-29-2023, 10:06 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote: She, like her church, was and to my knowledge is anti-choice. Look at her post #7, for instance, if her OP didn't tip you off.

Ah. I fanned through this thread a few months back and somehow gained the impression she changed her stance a bit.
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